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Important we bring young players from Draft too in years to come.
North is paying a massive price for getting ahead of one self.
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AFLW 2024 - Round 6 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Discussion Paddy v Petracca
- Thread starter giddyupgumby
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Important we bring young players from Draft too in years to come.
North is paying a massive price for getting ahead of one self.
Jay Beast
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Going to be super interesting to see how he polls in the Brownlow, could be a smokey.
StCicatriz
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I just don't get why people get defensive about it. We got the call wrong. The club isn't immune from mistakes.
4 years go past. We get faced with the same scenario and we made the right choice.
The club is much better run than back then with better resources in the footy dept.
CaptainRisky
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Next you lot will be onto the Billings Bont talks again
gringo2011
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My Richmond mates were still going on about Jarrod Oakley Nicholls and Tambling over Buddy until they won a GF. Melbourne mates still complain about Jack Watts. It doesn't go away until a club becomes a powerhouse again.
gringo2011
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That's what I've been saying. You can't just buy talent, it cost a lot more than just cash. If you miss out on drafting a generation coming up underneath you can expose yourself badly longterm. The Lyon years had a bit of that.
gringo2011
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He's lucky that we have won quite a few games and he hasn't got many to dilute his votes but I think he's just off that top shelf still. Neale should walk it in.
st_trav_ofWA
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please the Ball over Judd talk is still a sour point round these parts
People are in denial if Saturday night didn't hurt a bit. Don't care what angle you use. It's only natural. People pretending it doesn't isn't natural in my humble opinion.
Exactly this. Even if Paddy had have realised his potential which if you go back to the highlights of the game he played in, he had plenty, I still reckon it was a mistake.
We were crying out for a big inside mid, the club got spooked because Bulldogs paid a mill a year for Boyd so we thought we needed a big KPP forward.
I really wanted Petracca mainly because of my football philosophy (which is hardly unique) that if you can't win it from stoppages your forwards can be the best in the world but they won't get a look.
Nobody could foresee the concussion issues that would linit McCartin to 33 games. I mean bad injury can affect any career, but while I wanted to see Paddy shine, I lamented the passing on Petracca.
Now the issue is this is 6 years in hindsight, 4 of those Petracca was no better than Acres or Dunny. Richo would have been slammed for not developing Petracca.
The next issue is that while I wanted Petracca, it does not mean that if we had him on Saturday we win. Our team would be totally different, our drafting, recruiting, admin changes, assistant coaches, everything could have been different.
The club made poor decisions, true, this is why when Finnis and Satan came on board they changed things up and we are making very good decisions with drafting and trading now.
Second issue, goal line technology. I am pissed off for a number of reasons
1) It shows how amateur the AFL still is. They have admitted as much
2) The outcome of the game may have changed. Personally I think it was a goal, however we don't definitely know.
3) Not many would agree or care about this, but it diminishes the win for Melbourne. I know it is an opposition team, but the bigger picture is that it leaves results in doubt and eats away at the games integrity because of AFL negligence and incompetence.
Really poor by the AFL.
gringo2011
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Watching it I didn't think so, Howard's fingers are definitely pushed backwards before the whole ball went over by the look of it. The commentators were saying it was goal but I was far from convinced at the time or in replay. Annoying that there is conjecture but we didn't play well enough to put it out of the umpires hands either.
st_trav_ofWA
Norm Smith Medallist
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the thing with drafting is EVERY club has made blunders along the way so to continue banging on over and over and over and over and over again about the mistakes made is really a pointless activity .. we have gone over the reasoning on why the club at the time felt Paddy was the better choice , its been disected to the most minor detail what happened and what the club tried to do (spliting the first pick to get the guy they wanted and another early pick) but wasnt able to..
we stuffed up the first two picks on players who never really got a good run at it (Paddy & Goddard) and yeah that sux but the flip side of that is we brought in three guys from that draft through trades who are now very much integral parts of our team.. two guys whos value alone in my opinion outweighs that of the one way tractor ..
if you have the choice right now of the Saints with one way tractor, or the saints with Steele (24) Howard (56) and Butler (67) ??
we made the mistake in that draft but we made up for it by bringing in the right people from that draft later on in trades
we stuffed up the first two picks on players who never really got a good run at it (Paddy & Goddard) and yeah that sux but the flip side of that is we brought in three guys from that draft through trades who are now very much integral parts of our team.. two guys whos value alone in my opinion outweighs that of the one way tractor ..
if you have the choice right now of the Saints with one way tractor, or the saints with Steele (24) Howard (56) and Butler (67) ??
we made the mistake in that draft but we made up for it by bringing in the right people from that draft later on in trades
st_trav_ofWA
Norm Smith Medallist
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it hurt cause he beat us ... not because we didnt draft him ...
from the day of the draft he became a Dees player so i never gave it another thought i look at what my team has not what other teams have him tearing us apart hurts no more or no less than when any player tears us apart ....
the only time i really get miffed is when a player we traded out tears it up but even that after 3 or 4 years doesnt bother me more than anyother player
Why does no-one ever dig the boots in because of :
McGrath, Taranto, McLuggage, Ainsworth, Setterfield , Petrevski-Seton, Scrimshaw, Logue, Brodie, Bowes Florent , Simkin,.....over Marshall.
Wondering what the actual point of Petracca/Paddy conversation is, this far along?
Every nuance, possibility, alternate direction has been debated by both sides, with nothing new forthcoming.
Unlikely either side will change their viewpoint either.
Hindsight will tell us the team at the time made a mistake, I for one am glad they're no longer in-place...
For as long as we're a loser club, we'll pollute every discussion with loser topics, like this one.
I wonder if Tigers still go back and forth over the Tambling/Franklin debacle?
Every nuance, possibility, alternate direction has been debated by both sides, with nothing new forthcoming.
Unlikely either side will change their viewpoint either.
Hindsight will tell us the team at the time made a mistake, I for one am glad they're no longer in-place...
For as long as we're a loser club, we'll pollute every discussion with loser topics, like this one.
I wonder if Tigers still go back and forth over the Tambling/Franklin debacle?
We took Paddy, Dees took Petracca. We would have had pages of threads about delisting Petracca up until this year if we took him. If Mcartin got drafted to another team, who knows myb he would be the gun forward we were wishing we took. We would myb have won a flag had we traded in Dusty in 2013. We lost to Melbourne and we shouldn't have, which is what I'm pissed about. Don't think it has anything to do with who we drafted in 2014 tho..
George
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Reimagine Moorabbin
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That's fine, but even after 6 years? It's been done to death over that period on here.
gringo2011
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I agree to a point. We didn't just **** that draft in isolation though, if the people who'd blown numerous drafts had be accountable we would have progressed quicker. Melbourne had a similar drafting run and missed finals for 12 years. Richmond did similar as well. They were always compared to the Hawks because they both got priority picks, Hawks picked a generation of superstars and the Tigers got Delidio and a bunch of shit trucks that were barely AFL standard.
Richmond can't seem to get anything wrong now. Melbourne are better too but a bit behind the Tigers who have a system as well as talent. It feels like we are coming to the other side with the last few years a much better haul. To me you need to keep them on task and criticising the mistakes hopefully means that they aren't made again.
gringo2011
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I disagree, it hurts because we had access to and most commentators suggesting he was the obvious choice and he's looking like a top 5 player in the competition with Dusty like traits. We still lack the real top end talent and we let it slip through our fingers. It's getting brought up again because he's starring this year while Paddy never got a chance ether way. It's like two siblings got to chose a possession of grandmas each you picked a pot and pan set that broke after a couple of years and your brother took an old ring that tuned out to be worth $100,000. As much as you try to convince yourself you really needed pots and pans at the time the jealousy won't go away.
George
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Reimagine Moorabbin
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I'll move everything here later. Please self moderate in the meantime and discuss it in this thread, save me the hassle of moving 200 odd posts and save others the hassle of having to read it in other threads.
Cheers
Cheers
We made the wrong choice we lost.
End of thread.
End of thread.
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Big thanks to the pricks at HeraldSun for revving Christian Petracca up with this article on game day and making our club look stupid two different ways.Article is posted below but I just want to point out it has just taken quotes from Emma Quayle's book on the 2014 draft and slightly misrepresented the actual discussion that happened within the club.
Here is the link to the original article posted on what actually went into our decision.
Inside St Kilda: Why the Saints drafted Paddy McCartin
Emma Quayle sat in on St Kilda's recruiting meetings throughout 2014 for her book The Draftees.www.theage.com.au
Inside story: Why the Saints didn’t draft Christian Petracca with the No. 1 pick in 2014
Christian Petracca finished the 2014 season in pole position on St Kilda’s draft board. But the Saints changed their opinion for reasons unrelated to football. Sam Landsberger explains what really happened.
If the 2014 draft was held straight after the season St Kilda would’ve used its No. 1 pick on Christian Petracca.
The explosive match-winner topped the Saints’ talent board for most of the season, with their rankings taking shape from July.
In the trade period they knocked back Greater Western Sydney’s offer of picks four and seven for No. 1, with Petracca in pole position.
And if coach Brett Ratten could cherry-pick a rival star to help transform his team from likely finalist to premiership threat, there wouldn’t be many players in front of Petracca, who they will confront in Alice Springs on Saturday night.
Petracca is the dynamic bull who puts bums on seats, and both his career trajectory and playing style are starting to fit Dustin Martin’s mould.
So with the goalposts removed and cricket pitches uncovered, why did the Saints swing towards Paddy McCartin?
The consensus has long been that the Saints were spooked by the inflated price of key forwards.
In the space of 12 months Sydney signed Lance Franklin on a nine-year deal worth $10 million and Western Bulldogs poached reigning No. 1 pick Tom Boyd on a seven-year deal worth close to $7 million.
“If we go for the best player and we think Petracca is in front, we’re going to have to pay a million plus to get the forward we need,” former coach Alan Richardson said before the draft.
“The market is saying that. So let‘s get one in now and get him to fall in love with our footy club.”
Chief executive Matt Finnis played devil’s advocate, arguing that if Petracca immediately improved the Saints then perhaps they could buy a full-forward for cheaper as a destination club.
But there was another off-field factor contributing to the bold draft call.
In 2014 the Saints hired former AFL Players’ Association wellbeing services manager Matti Clements.
The AFL had recently banned clubs from issuing written psychology tests, however this was loosely policed and many continued to do so.
But it was not a breach of the rule to conduct verbal tests, which Clements did for the Saints.
McCartin passed in flying colours. Petracca didn’t.
“ (McCartin’s) personality and the way his teammates talk about him reminds me a lot of Luke Hodge,” Richardson said.
“He‘s probably not as blunt as Luke, but he comes across to me as someone who’s honest in what he says and does.”
Red flags emerged on Petracca.
Former Saints list manager Ameet Bains and recruiter Tony Elshaug started to question whether Petracca would fit their environment.
Why did the psych test reveal an eagerness for Petracca to promote himself ahead of teammates? Were there selfish traits?
Did his antics at the 3km time trial – ensuring everybody knew he was sore – highlight immaturity? A lack of mental strength?
How come he completed extra training in isolation instead of with teammates?
Petracca seemed to enjoy attention. Would his personality blend in at St Kilda?
“We take the view that the character assessment is critical,” Bains said at the time.
“And with pick one you go to deeper lengths in terms of the people you speak to, in terms of ensuring cross references as you see it, psychologist’s reports, personality reports, interviews, speaking to whoever you think might be relevant.”
But unlike data from physical testing, psychology results are subjective.
In 2015 an elite prospect passed at the club which selected him and failed at a club from his home state.
Same player, different result.
The AFL was also becoming concerned at the coaching going on before the written tests it was conducting.
A sameness emerged in the results because either parents or junior clubs were tutoring prospects on how to answer questions.
The question for St Kilda is were Petracca’s answers a legitimate red flag based on expert opinion or merely an amber light?
Other clubs agree there was a mental question mark, and – under Elshaug and Bains – you couldn’t accuse the Saints of not doing their homework.
They worked themselves to the knuckle that draft and, importantly, the premiership model at the time included a power forward.
Elshaug warned that without a quality goalkicker their vision of returning to finals in 2018 would blow out to 2025.
Did the Saints, perhaps subconsciously, sway towards filling a need instead of taking the best player?
And how much weighting should be given to a psych test?
That should hinge on how hard the talent is to split, although Melbourne probably wishes it placed a greater emphasis when assessing Jimmy Toumpas in 2012.
For Petracca there were also plenty of ticks.
He had the drive to take on employment as a barista at the MCG for the life experience, while the definition in his leg muscles pointed to elite training standards.
It has taken Petracca six years to show his AFL potential, albeit with 2015 lost to a knee reconstruction, but he is now the second favourite for the Brownlow Medal.
Since making his debut Petracca has played 97 out of a possible 98 games. How is that for mental resilience?
The 2014 psych test was completed as an aspirational teenager. What would his results show now, as a more balanced 24-year-old?
The McCartin story is a sad one. An unquestionable talent who was cut down by endless concussions and has now been delisted.
But some of McCartin’s St Kilda teammates believe alarm bells were ringing before those head knocks interfered.
Did McCartin apply himself in a similar manner to Nick Riewoldt when he was drafted at No. 1 pick in 2000?
Was McCartin strict on his diet and diabetes management? Or was he too lackadaisical in football and in life?
In 2014 some at the Saints were privately unsure whether McCartin’s junior dominance would transfer to senior football.
He was a man-child with a distinct physical advantage. Would that carry through when he was playing against men 10 years older than him?
Tony Lockett and Shane Mumford were able to bully AFL opponents just as they did junior opponents.
But ardent Port Adelaide supporters will remember Northern Knights product Ryan Willits as an early draft pick who couldn’t transfer that advantage.
McCartin was more bulk than prowess, whereas Max King never had that concern because he is athletic.
It is why King, before his knee injury, was widely viewed as the likely No. 1 pick in a strong draft and McCartin wasn’t.
If the Saints settled on Petracca then Melbourne was expected to pass on McCartin at the next two picks, taking Angus Brayshaw and Jake Lever instead.
One recruiter recalled his rankings this week – Isaac Heeney (Sydney academy), Darcy Moore (Collingwood father-son), Petracca, Angus Brayshaw and then McCartin at No.5.
“We didn’t have Paddy anywhere near that high (No. 1),” another club said.
“If we had pick one we would’ve been choosing between Christian and Bryashaw. If it was an open draft then (Isaac) Heeney and (Darcy) Moore would’ve been No. 1 and 2.”
We have to take our lumps, it was a costly decision, but every club makes them from time to time. A good team succeeds despite them, and I am confident that we will find the missing midfielder we need and go on to be a good team, whereas Melbourne will always pretend. They will always be a team with 5 or 6 genuine stars and a whole bunch of umpires-in-waiting (exhibit A: umpire Fritch, so far successfully masquerading as an AFL player) or lawyers. Their spirit is the weakest shit possible and they Bradburied their way over the finish line as St Kilda lost our shit like Shaggy and continually bombed the ball blindly forward - if the boys had done their breathing exercises ten mins before the end of the game we'd have won.
Ah well, another lesson for them to learn, as is the recruiting balls up with McCartin. He was a nice bloke and I'm genuinely disappointed for him but not once did he show anything more than the faintest glimpses into maybe what might be. The only upside in his drafting was it got Trout out of our club.
Verdun
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gringo2011
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This sounds a bit close to home Gringo - everything ok with the brother??
My analogies are pure fiction, apart from being an overly emotional toddler when we lose, I'm all good thanks Verdun.
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If we’d taken Petracca we’d be as good as Melbourne. Would everyone be happy with that?
