Paid Players In Local Leagues

[The_Guru]

Originally posted by timelord
Keve might be right about things being different in the city, but that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

"If your not paying out that sort of dough then in reality you aint gonna make the four."

And that's why the game is going down the toilet!! Someone's got to do something! *looks in the mirror at that person*

Why is the game going down the toilet? I think the metro leagues are stronger than they have ever been. There seem to be more teams joining than less. On any given weekend you can walk down to your closest local ground and watch a quality game of football.

I can't really understand this concept of money killing football (talking about metro footy here). We live in a capitalist society where supply and demand is the law of the day. That is why we have A, B C and D grades. The teams that want to play seriously will always rise to the top. Pure socialism doesnt work in society and it doesn't work in football. Even in the amateurs the top grade players recieve rewards. Clubs want to win and they will do what is required to do so.

 

[Mobbs]

Originally posted by The_Guru
Why is the game going down the toilet? I think the metro leagues are stronger than they have ever been. There seem to be more teams joining than less. On any given weekend you can walk down to your closest local ground and watch a quality game of football.

Yes, but this is because all the weaker clubs have died.

Yes, the Southern FL is a stronger league than the Federal FL, the SESFL, the ESCFA. But that's because its built now of only the strongest of those clubs. The others have DIED.

More teams are dying, or at least merging. There are less and less clubs every year.

 

[carn_the_nmfc]

In the CHFL we have some ex AFL players playing in the competition in 2001.

We had three players playing for Springbank. Only 1 of the players are playing and they provide all the money to help the club get over the line.

They got a heap of supporters as well.

 

[pazza]

Originally posted by Mobbenfuhrer
Yes, but this is because all the weaker clubs have died.

Yes, the Southern FL is a stronger league than the Federal FL, the SESFL, the ESCFA. But that's because its built now of only the strongest of those clubs. The others have DIED.

More teams are dying, or at least merging. There are less and less clubs every year.

I have to agree with that point.

I only have to look back to what is was like when I was growing up...out here in the Hoppers Crossing area, there were 2 competitions..the old Footscray District Football League and the Western Suburbs Football League (my association with Glen Orden was during the WSFL days). In the end the WSFL was absorbed into the FDFL, which went to 3 divisions.

The FDFL became quite strong in the early 1990's, but, the old division 3 of the competition died around 1997. Gone were Newport, Werribee Amateurs (familiar names those 2), ANBY and others. The other 2 divisions grew bigger and final 5's were introduced.

I think that the local football inquiry needs to have public submissions...I'm sure a collective group from this board could make some very interesting points.

We need to ensure the survival of Victorian Football. Football Victoria needs a shake-up, as its administration of both the VMFL and the VCFL could be part of the problem.

 

[Spogs]

I'm not sure that the money factor has as much to do with the decline of some country clubs as much as the general movement of the younger population towards the city. The city of Mildura is actually growing quite strongly so is able to maintain a fairly good standard football competition compared to some of the leagues based around very small population centres. The SFL clubs are in a position where they are "buying" players to improve lists, while clubs in smaller leagues are having to "buy" players to make up numbers.

There are farmers around Ouyen for example that pump a lot of money into local football but there just aren't enough players to field senior, reserves and junior teams.

 

[timelord]

This is going to be a long post, folks!!

Originally posted by Mobbenfuhrer
1. Phil, is that true that the inquiry is NOT open to any public submission? Are we able to attend any forums or is completely closed?

The general rule of committees is that they accept public submissions. I hope your wrong about that, but maybe it needs to be investigated further. As far as forums go, I think it depends of the committee as to whether or not they want to talk to certain people either straight away or because of a written submission. I think that's how it works.

Originally posted by tdubfleet
No club can be successful without the backing of $$$$ these days.

Don't start advocating that with me around!!

Originally posted by tdubfleet
No better examples than North Brisbane and West Brisbane in the QSFL. Premiers in 95/96, North folded in 96 and couldn't even defend and West Brisbane lost around 70% of the team and couldn't even make the finals.

In the case of North Brisbane, not true! They folded because they were in debt up to their eyeballs - but they ducked it and reformed as the Northern Eagles. And that sort of stunt really browns me off!! Dandenong did the same thing - although they got theirs eventually! North sunk themselves, because they tried to use money to be succesful - and it bit them in the bum!

Originally posted by Mobbenfuhrer
I am a fan of IAFC's 9-a-side 'Metro' concept up to the point that they want it to be non-contact. That change is too much for me.

Case in point! The Tamworth AFL! They actually kept interest up with an 11-a-side comp, to the point that they were in a position to start a full comp again. From acorns come oak trees!

Originally posted by Mobbenfuhrer
Its definitely for the health of the nation to encourage folks to participate in sport.

Hear Hear! Both on a physical level and a psychological level - read: community spirit!! And that especially goes for the kids! Don't we have a weight problem at the moment with the kids? And footy is ideal, because it's AUSTRALIAN! No other sport can make that claim!

Originally posted by The_Guru
Why is the game going down the toilet? I think the metro leagues are stronger than they have ever been. There seem to be more teams joining than less. On any given weekend you can walk down to your closest local ground and watch a quality game of football.

Try telling those fans who leave the AFL that, Guru. THAT's why the game is going down the toilet. The quality of footy being played in DVFL Division One, VAFA A Grade and Eastern Division One are just not pulling the crowds that they deserve. You're right, but people aren't going to see it. See my point?

Originally posted by The_Guru
I can't really understand this concept of money killing football (talking about metro footy here). We live in a capitalist society where supply and demand is the law of the day. That is why we have A, B C and D grades. The teams that want to play seriously will always rise to the top. Pure socialism doesnt work in society and it doesn't work in football. Even in the amateurs the top grade players recieve rewards. Clubs want to win and they will do what is required to do so.

Pure socialism=community spirit. Don't tell me it doesn't work in football! That's BS! The only reason it's not appearing to work is because too many people are going pure capitalism - and the real game of footy is not taking the load! You say footy and pure socialism don't mix? I say footy and pure CAPITALISM don't mix!! Anyway, I am a firm advocate that capitalism has gone too far - and the fact that the game is losing it's community spirit is the symptom that can not be ignored if the game is to survive this (expletive) cancer called MONEY!!! And football isn't the only thing to suffer from that disease!

Originally posted by Mobbenfuhrer
Yes, the Southern FL is a stronger league than the Federal FL, the SESFL, the ESCFA. But that's because its built now of only the strongest of those clubs. The others have DIED.

And that is a BAD thing - because it's those clubs that were holding up the flag of community spirit. I disagree that the SFL is a stronger league than the FFL or the SESFL (it's certainly stronger than the ESCFA though). For a start, the two FFL strength clubs aren't in the SFL. One's in the VFL (Springvale) and the other is in the EFL (Noble Park). And I don't think the other FFL clubs are as strong as they once were. Mordialloc are definitely not as good as they were in the FFL before they joined the VFA!

Originally posted by pazza
The other 2 divisions grew bigger and final 5's were introduced.

Correction, Pazza. The FDL had a final five well before they absorbed the WSFL and became a multiple division competition.

Phew!

 

[The_Guru]

Originally posted by timelord

Try telling those fans who leave the AFL that, Guru. THAT's why the game is going down the toilet. The quality of footy being played in DVFL Division One, VAFA A Grade and Eastern Division One are just not pulling the crowds that they deserve. You're right, but people aren't going to see it. See my point?

Amateurs are never going to have big crowds because they have no geographical communities to call on and they also have no juniors. I mean nobody supports a school. The crowd is made up of parents and close friends. I also beg to differ that crowds are down in the local footy. I have seen a lot of local footy and the crowds have been terrific. Much better than in other years. I mean just watch the EDFL Grand Finals this year. Last years Grand Finals at Windy Hill were packed and given good weather so will this years. The same as the Eastern FL last year. It was Huge.

As for Our arguement on whether Money is the Factor for supposedly killing Footy than I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Mobbs]

The reason why Guru's assertion that crowds are up doesn't sit well with me is due to the following hypothetical :

League 1 = Teams A, B, C, D, E, F & G. 7 teams. Averages 180 per game.
League 2 = Teams H, I, J, K, L, M & N. 6 teams. Averages 150 per game.
League 3 = Teams O, P, Q, R, S & T. 6 teams. Averages 120 per game.

Later years, all three leagues merge. Worst teams have folded (Teams F, G, K, L, M, N, Q, R, S, T).

A new league is created from the ashes :
League 4 = Teams A, B, C, D, E, H, I, J, O & P. 10 teams.

Better grade of footy, more compact league. Crowds go up. 250 per game!

Looks much better, doesn't it?

But overall, its worse.
League 1 : 7 teams x 180 = 1260 per round.
League 2 : 6 teams x 150 = 900 per round.
League 3 : 6 teams x 120 = 720 per round.
A total for the region of 2880 people through the gates per round.

But :
League 4 : 10 teams x 250 = 2500 per round.

Its dropped. There's been some "football cleansing", and teams have gone. Of course the remainder will get good crowds. Players left from those towns which have lost clubs are heading over to the bigger town next door. So those 250 per round probably include 100 from the dead clubs.

2 clubs died from the strongest League 1. 180 crowds. Loss of 360.
4 from the mid-range League 2. 150 crowds. Loss of 600.
4 from the lowly League 3. 120 crowds. Loss of 480.
Total crowd potential loss of 1440.

5 clubs remain from League 1 @ 180 crowds. Carryover of 900.
2 clubs remain from League 2 @ 150 crowds. Carryover of 300.
2 clubs remain from League 3 @ 120 crowds. Carryover of 240.
Total "perfect weather" carryover to new league = 1440.

So from 2880 crowds, we expect to see 1440 remain as their clubs remained. 1440 to go as their clubs went. In reality, most of those will pick up another club, as their son/husband/mate/dad started playing down the road when their club died.

But the crowd only provides 2500. 380 shortfall. Well, those would be the ones who just don't go anymore because its too far now, and its not the local club anymore.

380 loss, 1440 retention from dead clubs. A quarter of crowds gone.

Looks great cause big crowds at the matches, but with less matches going on, that was always going to happen.

Less people involved.

Decline.

 

[tdubfleet]

Originally posted by timelord

Don't start advocating that with me around!!

Wasn't just talking about just paying players, it's the whole package, coaches, balls, a good ground and facilites. This all costs $$$$. It's not the be all and end all but not having a pot to **** in over a long period is not good for moral at a club. You don't need buckets of money but there are not to many poorly run clubs that are successful.

In the case of North Brisbane, not true! They folded because they were in debt up to their eyeballs - but they ducked it and reformed as the Northern Eagles. And that sort of stunt really browns me off!! Dandenong did the same thing - although they got theirs eventually! North sunk themselves, because they tried to use money to be succesful - and it bit them in the bum!

I wouldn't call it a stunt, yes it is unfortunate that it happened but it was a core group of supporters and players that realised the community needed a club and set about rebuilting it. The new commitee learnt from previous mistakes and rebuilt the club using mainly local players and the friut of their labour are players such as Robbie Copeland, Shane Morrison & Luke Weller establishing careers at Brisbane.

Just wanted to clear those points up

 

[carn_the_nmfc]

I reckon that if your local club get one of the ex-afl players going around then you will definately get more supporters at every ground.

If North Ballarat get Glenn Manton, which might just happen, then in Ballarat we will get more ppl supporting that particular club.

It would be the same in the amateurs and in other leagues.

 

[TheBigV]

Originally posted by Spogs
I'm not sure that the money factor has as much to do with the decline of some country clubs as much as the general movement of the younger population towards the city. The city of Mildura is actually growing quite strongly so is able to maintain a fairly good standard football competition compared to some of the leagues based around very small population centres. The SFL clubs are in a position where they are "buying" players to improve lists, while clubs in smaller leagues are having to "buy" players to make up numbers.

There are farmers around Ouyen for example that pump a lot of money into local football but there just aren't enough players to field senior, reserves and junior teams.

Agree wholeheartedly with Spogs. Is it also the society in which we live? Longer work hours means people have less free time to do things such as volunteer at local footy clubs. The volunteers are the heart and soul of footy clubs. In alot of the cases there is too much left to too few.

 

[Spogs]

Mobs, you're absolutely spot on except that unfortunately (and alarmingly), that whole cycle feeds all the way up to AFL level. Ever since the AFL became the self proclaimed custodian of the game instead of the clubs, the downward spiral in support of the game has been glossed over with Jackson, Dimetriou and Co. standing proudly in front of the TV cameras spurting out AFL crowd figures and how wonderful everything is.

The fact that people now play AFL football is cause enough for us all to be concerned. (Unless they're pretending that they're running an Australian rules football league).

The clubs at AFL, SANFL, WAFL etc level don't have any incentive to ensure that regional leagues stay strong. The AFL have taken on the custodianship and only care about TV ratings and, at a distant second, crowds at AFL games. I read, with ironic amusement, threads on the AFL board how our game is taking over from the NRL in Sydney and we should all be smuggly satisfied. Pigs Arse. I say be afraid now because noone is taking responsibility for the game beyond the top level.

 

[Mobbs]

Yeah I agree with that, too, Spogs. Especially in metropolitan centres, it's harder and harder to get the average Joe down to watch a local match, because AFL (top-tier AR) is always billed by the media as almost the be-all and end-all. The AFL themselves do nothing to turn this attitude around.

So less people go and see local matches now. They all want to see AFL, and that's fair enough. But why can't they drop into the local match as well? AFL games are hardly ever played at the same time as a local match anymore.

Nope, fans of AFL are paying less and less attention to grass roots footy. It's a bit of a last bastion in a forum like this Regional Leagues board. Vast majority of Bigfooty members don't pay much attention to it. In the main, its diehard State League and local team fans, and that's topped up by a fair few folks who like to see their AFL reserve players running around in the VFL or equivalent.

Not a lot of new folks jumping on board local leagues as supporters. It's a shame, because the atmosphere can be very emotive and rewarding.

For the loss of interest in the aesthetics of local footy atmosphere, you can probably point the finger a bit at TV and computer games etc. Feelings aren't all that high on the development menu any more. The spiritual side is dying.

 

[tdubfleet]

I think with kids now being bought up with AFL being the be all and end all, kids who finish U18's and don't get drafted think it's all over or lost have totally lost interest by this stage.

I thought it was funny the grass roots week when players had photos taken in thier club of origin jumpers. How many players get delisted and go back to there orginal clubs to play with thier mates they grow up with. I reckon it would be about 0.000000001%!!!!!!

After playing AFL it's all about the $$$$$ and that's where they end up playing. Where the $$$'s are. Can't blame them but it's a shame.

 

[timelord]

Originally posted by tdubfleet
I think with kids now being bought up with AFL being the be all and end all, kids who finish U18's and don't get drafted think it's all over or lost have totally lost interest by this stage.

I thought it was funny the grass roots week when players had photos taken in thier club of origin jumpers. How many players get delisted and go back to there orginal clubs to play with thier mates they grow up with. I reckon it would be about 0.000000001%!!!!!!

After playing AFL it's all about the $$$$$ and that's where they end up playing. Where the $$$'s are. Can't blame them but it's a shame.

That's where the super can help!! If they start getting super, the clubs that they go back to are actually getting money from the AFL - in the sense that they've saved money because they don't ahve to pay the returning player as he is already being paid by the super fund!!

Now, going back to what you said earlier;

Originally posted by tdubfleet
Wasn't just talking about just paying players, it's the whole package, coaches, balls, a good ground and facilites. This all costs $$$$. It's not the be all and end all but not having a pot to **** in over a long period is not good for moral at a club. You don't need buckets of money but there are not to many poorly run clubs that are successful.

Coaches are in the same boat as players - more than a few grass roots clubs have playing coaches. Balls - the AFL should be footing the bill for those! A good ground - that's up to the local council to look after, and if it isn't up to scratch the council should be blasted for not doing their job. Facilities - also a council problem because if they were community minded they'd foot the bill for that as well!

Football clubs should not have to fork out money by the bucket. Maybe a little bit for a few luxuries, but everything you mentioned should be up to other parties.

Why do you think I advocate community spirit?

And just quickly;

Beautiful stats, Kev! Shut up, Guru - the game is in TROUBLE!! And I'm not going to agree to disagree about the money issue because you are just plain wrong! The facts that Kev put up are a perfect example!

 

[Mobbs]

From the article (Weekly Times 3/9/03 p35 "Focus"), i give you John Sudholz :

Farming has been the major focus of his life since leaving school at age 15.

Football was the other.

John played 87 games with VFL team South Melbourne from 1966 to 1971 and was the club's leading goalkicker for four seasons.

He joined the Swans as a 19 year old ruckman but played most of his games at full-forward and in the forward pocket.

South Melbourne paid him $40 a week to play at the highest level of football in Australia.

Ironically, when he left the club in 1971 to return to the Wimmera, he was offered $70 a week to play for Murtoa. Instead, he opted to play for Rupanyup at $50 a week.

VFL football was an integral part of John's life. It helped build his confidence and raised his profile in the VFF (Victorian Farmers Federation).

He plans to retire while still kicking goals (at farming, not footy! They mean farming!) and has set a target of his 60th birthday which is three years away.

From $40 in the VFL to turning down a better offer and instead taking a paltry $50 with Rup!

 

[timelord]

THAT is what I'm talking about! Community spirit - in spades! Money was NOT a major factor in his decision, and that is the way it should be!

 

[The_Guru]

Originally posted by timelord
And just quickly;

Beautiful stats, Kev! Shut up, Guru - the game is in TROUBLE!! And I'm not going to agree to disagree about the money issue because you are just plain wrong! The facts that Kev put up are a perfect example!

timelord I'm only talking about the metro comps. I get the feeling Kevin is talking about the country comps. In the Metro Leagues around us (Diamond Valley, Eastern, Essendon) Senior teams are increasing, Junior teams are increasing, media coverage is increasing, Crowds are increasing and the Standards are definately increasing. I just heard the President of the EDFL (on a TV show just introduced this year) say it was the leagues best year. He said the League hoped more and more AFL & VFL players came back to the comp because it just makes the league so much stronger. Both financially and standard wise. All you seem to do is whinge and sook.

Like I said in the country it sounds like a completely different story and I wont argue about it b/c I don't know.

Oh and by the way I don't have to agree with you either because in the end there is only going to be one winner. Money will always be a part of football! Your romantic view of amatuer footy is almost dead. Don't tell me to Shut up when are having a debate on a free footy board in good faith. What makes your opinion any more 'Right' than anyone elses. We arent on the footy field now mate. The umpire is not always right.

I love local footy and go every week. I stand by what I say. The metro comps have never been stronger.

 

[Mobbs]

Originally posted by The_Guru
... Senior teams are increasing, Junior teams are increasing ...

I don't think that's the case for senior clubs, Guru.

The only new club in the metro district I can recall commencing of recent times is Worawa, and they're in a vcfl league (YVMDFL). Kensington Hill ("The Club") was formed, but closed after the one year.

On the other hand, clubs are disappearing slowly but surely. Trying to remember some examples. Boronia Park, I think, is one. Others are merging. Mentone and Parkdale are merging, from what I've heard.

Here's some of those that I believe are correct representations of mergers, foldings, formings and reformings :

(Some years of transaction are approximations)

1989 :
Mergers : Waverley & Clayton Ammos = Waverley Ammos (-1)
Foldings : Sunshine, St Leonards OC (-2)
New clubs : Noble Park Bears, Kontias (+2)
Net for year : -1
Progressive : -1

1990 :
Foldings : Bennetswood-Blackburn South (-1)
Net for year : -1
Progressive : -1

1991 :
Foldings : Camberwell, Footscray IT (-2)
New clubs : Monash Gryphons, St Pats Mentone (+2)
Net for year : 0
Progressive : -1

1992 :
Foldings : Brunswick-Broadmeadows, Kontias (-2)
Net for year : -2
Progressive : -3

1993 :
Mergers : Mount Waverley & Burwood = Mt Waverley Burwood, Doncaster East & Wattle Park = Doncaster East, St Bedes and Mentone Ammos = St Bedes-Mentone, Gardenvale & St Kevins Ormond = Caulfield (-4)
Net for year : -4
Progressive : -7

1994 :
Mergers : Surrey Hills and East Camberwell = Surrey Park. (-1)
Foldings : Oakleigh, Prahran, Brunswick Amateurs, Preston MBOB (-4)
Net for year : -5
Progressive : -12

1995 :
New clubs : Swinburne Uni (+1)
Net for year : +1
Progressive : -11

1996 :
Mergers : Bulleen United & Canterbury-North Balwyn = Bulleen Cobras, Fawker & Moomba Park = Fawkner Park, Old Brighton & Bloods = Brighton Bloods (-3)
Foldings : Newlands-Coburg, Balwyn Combined, Dandenong Redlegs, Doveton (-4)
Net for year : -7
Progressive : -18

1997 :
Foldings : St Andrews-Coburg (-1)
New clubs : Mount Lilydale (+1)
Net for year : 0
Progressive : -18

1999 :
Mergers : Glenhuntly & St Kilda-South Caulfield, Ivanhoe & Assumption College = Ivanhoe-Assumption (-1)
Foldings : Thornbury Cougars (-1)
New clubs : Rupertswood, Brunswick Amateurs (+2)
Net for year : 0
Progressive : -18

2000 :
New clubs : Worawa (+1)
Net for year : +1
Progressive : -17

2001 :
Mergers : Mt Waverley-Burwood & Waverley Ammos = Waverley Blues. (-1)
Net for year : -1
Progressive : -18

2002 :
Foldings : Boronia Park (-1)
New clubs : Kensington Hill (+1)
Net for year : 0
Progressive : -18

2003 :
Foldings : Kensington Hill (-1)
Net for year : -1
Progressive : -19

Summary :
1989 : Net for year : -1 Progressive : -1
1990 : Net for year : -1 Progressive : -1
1991 : Net for year : 0 Progressive : -1
1992 : Net for year : -2 Progressive : -3
1993 : Net for year : -4 Progressive : -7
1994 : Net for year : -5 Progressive : -12
1995 : Net for year : +1 Progressive : -11
1996 : Net for year : -7 Progressive : -18
1997 : Net for year : 0 Progressive : -18
1999 : Net for year : 0 Progressive : -18
2000 : Net for year : +1 Progressive : -17
2001 : Net for year : -1 Progressive : -18
2002 : Net for year : 0 Progressive : -18
2003 : Net for year : -1 Progressive : -19

So the best we can say is that the more recent attrition rates are less severe than those of the mid-90s.

 

[ozzult]

I was very surprised by the stories in this thread. I doubt there would be many clubs here in the WAAFL that would pay their players. There might be a little bit going on in A and B grade. But the D grade and F grade clubs, unless they are an overflow team for one of the A grade sides, are really struggling for cash.

Some clubs even charge $2 for each knee, shoulder and ankle that has to be strapped for games. I'm not sure about other clubs in the Vic bush, but over here we still have to pay a rego fee to play ($100 this year at my club, each club varies) then another $5 for each game to pay for the umpires.

Some of the head coaches get paid. I know our coach in D grade gets $1000 a year. (Works out to $50 a game).


I remember a bloke telling me about one of the C grade clubs used to pay some big money (in comparison) and eventually the club crumbled. The president wanted to stop the payments, and the paid players stood up and said if he stays and stops the payments we're all out. So they made the president leave, then some of the unpaid players left in protest.

At one point this club had enough money to fund its own light towers at the home ground. The council provides enough light towers to fill in a few pockets just for training, but this club had enough cash to put more around the ground so it was bright enough for a night game. (This is unheard of in the WAAFL).


It may be part of the game, but it is a blight on the game.

 

[Portmagpies]

There is some serious money in the Barossa league in SA.

They've got all those big wineries bankrolling them and clubs like Nuriootpa and Tanunda have mozzas to recruit the very best.

Concidentally, they are perennial powerhouses.

 

[timelord]

Originally posted by The_Guru
timelord I'm only talking about the metro comps. I get the feeling Kevin is talking about the country comps. In the Metro Leagues around us (Diamond Valley, Eastern, Essendon) Senior teams are increasing, Junior teams are increasing, media coverage is increasing, Crowds are increasing and the Standards are definately increasing. I just heard the President of the EDFL (on a TV show just introduced this year) say it was the leagues best year. He said the League hoped more and more AFL & VFL players came back to the comp because it just makes the league so much stronger. Both financially and standard wise. All you seem to do is whinge and sook.

The President of the EDFL is talking out of his rear end. Kev just ably proved your assessment of senior team numbers increasing as nonsense (actually he beat me to that). As for hoping that more AFL/VFL players come back to the comp - he'd better hope that they come back for nothing, otherwise it won't happen as much as he hopes it will. Crowds are DOWN, not up (as Kev proved in an earlier post). The standard is only up because those who just want to have a go are being frozen out! Now tell me why that is a "whinge and sook", when in reality it's a damn serious issue that needs to be resolved for the sake of the game's survival!

Originally posted by The_Guru
Oh and by the way I don't have to agree with you either because in the end there is only going to be one winner. Money will always be a part of football! Your romantic view of amatuer footy is almost dead. Don't tell me to Shut up when are having a debate on a free footy board in good faith. What makes your opinion any more 'Right' than anyone elses. We arent on the footy field now mate. The umpire is not always right.

If my view of amateur footy is almost dead - then why is the VAFA the one competition that is GAINING clubs?? And besides that - if my view of amateur footy is almost dead, then the game IS doomed! That's not just my opinion. It's the opinion of the state government - otherwise they wouldn't be having their enquiry into country footy. They should be looking at footy in the whole state in my opinion but for now they're concentrating on where the problem is more visible. It'll happen in suburban footy as well, if it's not arrested soon.

Originally posted by The_Guru
I love local footy and go every week. I stand by what I say. The metro comps have never been stronger.

I preferred it when it was social and fun, back in what I call the best time - the mid 1980's, when we had comps like YCW, the Churches and West Suburban. It was a different sort of strength, the sort of strength that the game needs to survive.

You might go every week, Guru? Do you participate in any way? Do you give your time in any way? In other words - do you REALLY support local footy in the true fashion?

 

[The_Guru]

Originally posted by timelord
The President of the EDFL is talking out of his rear end. As for hoping that more AFL/VFL players come back to the comp - he'd better hope that they come back for nothing, otherwise it won't happen as much as he hopes it will. Crowds are DOWN, not up (as Kev proved in an earlier post)

The mighty Timelord has spoken. He knows the EDFL President was talking out of his rear end. He knows that the comp will struggle to attract AFL?VFL players in coming years? YOU KNOW NOTHING.
AFL/VFL players has risen about 500% over the last five years. Off the top off my head there would be about 8 players in the EDFL who have played AFL and about 50 that have been on AFL lists or played VFL footy. Five years ago there would have only been a handful. As for kev's stats on crowds, they are hardly gospel. He was giving his opinion on whats happened to the crowds and I respect that but he didn't actually provide any hard evidence.

You might go every week, Guru? Do you participate in any way? Do you give your time in any way? In other words - do you REALLY support local footy in the true fashion?

More than you will ever know Timelord. You stick to umpiring the game and I'll stick to spending a good 15 hrs a week working at a club. How the hell do you know what football club committees do. I mean if i launched a full scale tirade about how umpires where ruining this game who would be the first person to pipe up? You seem to think you are an authority on all matters football.

 

[Mobbs]

It's true that my crowd numbers thingy was only an hypothesis, but there are less people are involved in footy nowadays.

The merge/fold/new clubs, though, give or take one or two I've probably missed, and a couple perhaps with their years wrong, is all factual data.

If I said that the state of local footy is not unhealthy, I'd probably be David Irving.

 

[timelord]

Originally posted by The_Guru
The mighty Timelord has spoken. He knows the EDFL President was talking out of his rear end. He knows that the comp will struggle to attract AFL?VFL players in coming years? YOU KNOW NOTHING.
AFL/VFL players has risen about 500% over the last five years. Off the top off my head there would be about 8 players in the EDFL who have played AFL and about 50 that have been on AFL lists or played VFL footy. Five years ago there would have only been a handful.

I did NOT say that the league would struggle to attract AFL/VFL players. They'll get them - but not as many as you think they will. The reason the number of AFL/VFL players has been increasing is because suburban clubs have started to thrown money around. This affects the balance of the competition - and that is a BAD thing. Tullamarine won't last more than a year in A Grade, unless they play the same game. Greenvale did. Keilor Park haven't, but then they've benefitted from the collapse (yahoo!) to B Grade of Airport West. It's the same clubs up the top - Keilor, Oak Park, Doutta and Aberfeldie.

And the EDFL is not the only league with that problem. There's a yawning chasm between Division 1 and Division 2 Diamond Valley, to the point that Mernda have gone on the record and said that if they should win a Division 2 premiership, they'll go to court to not get promoted because they know it will destroy them! Eastern has the same problem as the EDFL, the same clubs - Vermont and East Burwood, with East Ringwood bobbing up every now and then as do Mitcham. Noble Park has provided some fresh air but that was inevitable because they have the finance to compete.

Don't assume that I know NOTHING!

Originally posted by The_Guru
More than you will ever know Timelord. You stick to umpiring the game and I'll stick to spending a good 15 hrs a week working at a club. How the hell do you know what football club committees do. I mean if i launched a full scale tirade about how umpires where ruining this game who would be the first person to pipe up? You seem to think you are an authority on all matters football.

OK, now you've given me some information that I wasn't aware of. I thought you were just a loudmouth outer fan - and you have proved me incorrect on that count. But that doesn't mean that you have to breadth of experience that I have from the point of view of the leagues and the way they run. By that I mean the variety. It gives me a view of the clubs that I would suggest that you don't have. And don't forget - umpiring isn't the only thing that I do. I have been in contact with most leagues with regard to my historical work as well. That's why I respect Kev's figures because he's in the same game.

As far as launching an anti umpire tirade - I rather think that my reaction to it would depend on whether it was a "whinge and sook" about the immediate past game, or a more constructive criticism with evidence. I'll always listen to the latter. The former - well my reaction would actually vary depending on the content. I've already proven on this board that I am prepared to criticise my own if the need arises.