Peter Gordon explores Swiss appeal and injunction on suspension

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Lance Uppercut said:
no doubt, they do love a good review. Or a forensic audit. But I was just surprised because they didn't need to say that at all, in fact quite the opposite
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I don't think they liked having their decision overturned and the power taken from them. Threatening to leave WADA is the only power they could exercise.

Also think they weren't expecting the decision and weren't sure how the media/public would react.

And that the process has taken too long (and took too long for Keefe, Thomas and Crowley) is a valid criticism. Just me speculating on possible motivators...
 
sherb said:
As I said mate, calm down.

I understand your need to take out your frustration on someone, and if it has to be posters on this board, so be it.

I'd actually suggest that you direct your anger at those at your club who have put it in this mess in the first place though.
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Bunk feels sorry for you .... me too !
 

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Armchair Critic said:
I never said it made it 4-2. I pointed out that not all 3 judges were comfortably satisfied for all players which is what was stated in the post I quoted. That is not true
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'They' are a singularity. That's how they ran their case and that's how they wanted to be judged. The post you quoted stated that 3 out of 3 found them guilty. That is correct. The fact that 1 of the 3 wasn't convinced it was all of them is irrelevant considering how 'they' wanted to be judged.
 
ODNBlue said:
It is true. All of the CAS judges were comfortably satisfied that TB4 was used at the club. Secondarily, 2 out of 3 were comfortably satisfied that they'd all taken it.

This does not make it 4-2... it's still 3-3. And CAS don't come with the bias of the AFL 'Tribunal'.
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Not sure why people are bothered about this whole 4-2 3-3 bullshit.

Means nothing

3 AFL tribunal members applied a different burdon of proof that was too high.
3 CAS members applied a different burdon of proof

CAS are satisfied that TB4 was used at the club, 2 reckons on them all, 1 reckons on some. CAS members may of thought on all of them, as the players were represented as a group and not individually.

Funny how people are outraged that people thought the AFL Tribunal was "not independant, and a bit corrupt and how dare people undermine the judges", yet they are undermining the CAS judges, even though Essendon picked one, and agreed to the chairman.

Essendon & players were also expecting a guilty verdict and thought it was a real chance of happening (without knowing the CAS decision), they just didn't like the sentence length. Can't appeal it because of that.

They know they took TB4, and they were comfortably satisfied that they did even before CAS returned the verdict. Seems like they were all impressed with Young and he made a convincing case to both parties.
 
ODNBlue said:
'They' are a singularity. That's how they ran their case and that's how they wanted to be judged. The post you quoted stated that 3 out of 3 found them guilty. That is correct. The fact that 1 of the 3 wasn't convinced it was all of them is irrelevant considering how 'they' wanted to be judged.
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He stated that the 2-1 only related to Fault. That is blatantly INCORRECT
 
Armchair Critic said:
He stated that the 2-1 only related to Fault. That is blatantly INCORRECT
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I apologise. You are right. I mistook which part of his post you were criticising. I haven't seen this written much, but from what I remember reading, the reason why one judge did not find all players guilty was because he felt that he couldn't do so as they hadn't interviewed the entire group.

Sorry for my confusion.
 
sherb said:
As I said mate, calm down.

I understand your need to take out your frustration on someone, and if it has to be posters on this board, so be it.

I'd actually suggest that you direct your anger at those at your club who have put it in this mess in the first place though.
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Wow, you're really shit at that
 
The 747 said:
I don't think they liked having their decision overturned and the power taken from them. Threatening to leave WADA is the only power they could exercise.

Also think they weren't expecting the decision and weren't sure how the media/public would react.

And that the process has taken too long (and took too long for Keefe, Thomas and Crowley) is a valid criticism. Just me speculating on possible motivators...
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threatening to leave wada has little to do with Essendon though. it doesn't put the genie back in the bottle and erase the scandal. Essendon is being used as a trojan horse. their real concern is a building full of frozen piss with new tests being developed, and no way of knowing if a cycling magnitude scandal is waiting around the corner, and now with a hostile asada it represents a risk that cannot be managed.
 
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Armchair Critic said:
That is what a lot of people seem to think but the fact is one of the Tribunal members was not comfortably satisfied about all players using TB4. I am not sure how many players or who they were.
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Don't believe the spin the dissenting view was in regards to "Several" Players so maybe 31-32 players are still guilty in that CAS panel members eyes.

Guessing it's players who had separate lawyers at the CAS hearing?
 
Lance Uppercut said:
I'll go down any road I feel like, thanks very much. Fact is your club has been synonomous with cheating for decades. Mine has certainly taken that mantle now but it's a bit rich for Carlton supporters of anyone to try and mount a high horse. lol
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Both Carlton and EFC are known as filthy salary cap cheats. EFC have taken it up a few notches with the PED cheating.

Tiges have had you both covered for ineptness but Blues significantly closed the margin on us over the last few years. One could argue that the way EFC has handled the drugs sage it has the the trifecta...salary cap cheats, PED cheats and inept.
 

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nineteen eighty said:
Both Carlton and EFC are known as filthy salary cap cheats. EFC have taken it up a few notches with the PED cheating.

Tiges have had you both covered for ineptness but Blues significantly closed the margin on us over the last few years. One could argue that the way EFC has handled the drugs sage it has the the trifecta...salary cap cheats, PED cheats and inept.
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:D:thumbsu:
 
Lance Uppercut said:
maybe the government don't feel that way?

I'm not saying they don't mind you; but I don't really understand why people believe that jsut because the Howard government had a particular position at a particular point in time, that it is than an immutable policy position of all governments into perpetuity. Why would you think that? What is the basis for such an assumption?

Especially when there's no doubt there's a particularly Australian strand of thinking that abhors the interference of external and unaccountable transnational organisations that permeates throughout the political classes of either colour.

It seems to me to be a hidden assumption that isn't necessarily grounded in any factual basis. An I wrong?
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We hate cheats more than external parties. Anyone with a brain can figure out what dank was up to.

Cas are not stupid they know what Essendon got up to and were not going to sit back and allow a loop hole to be created.

Chinese swim team had no idea what was being injected into them, had no access to independent information and were nailed. Compare that to the Essendon players who had managers, the aflpa, asada, the afl and independent medical advise. They did nothing and then made no mention of what they were taking when tested.
 
Linda_Lovelace said:
We hate cheats more than external parties. Anyone with a brain can figure out what dank was up to.

Cas are not stupid they know what Essendon got up to and were not going to sit back and allow a loop hole to be created.

Chinese swim team had no idea what was being injected into them, had no access to independent information and were nailed. Compare that to the Essendon players who had managers, the aflpa, asada, the afl and independent medical advise. They did nothing and then made no mention of what they were taking when tested.
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In addition to that, if they had dared question what was going on, either the athlete or family members - or both - would have been imprisoned or would have disappeared.

No comparison.
 
Have spoken to a few lawyers today, people whom all said the Essendon and Hird appeals through the courts here were laughable and would fail are also saying no chance of winning an appeal in the Swiss system. The bigger problem for them is to get an injunction against the suspension, apparently you need to show a complete miscarriage of justice to get the injunction against the suspension and that just isn't going to happen here, so it means players are suspended until hearings are complete which might mean after the season is over anyway so worthless.
 
Lance Uppercut said:
coming from a Carlton supporter you just have to laugh
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Carlton supporters demanded change after the salary cap breaches, Essendon supporters act like they didn't cheat in a premiership year and have not demanded change after the club wide doping program.

But hey you already know all this but still talk shit as always.
 
coryne said:
Carlton supporters demanded change after the salary cap breaches, Essendon supporters act like they didn't cheat in a premiership year and have not demanded change after the club wide doping program.

But hey you already know all this but still talk shit as always.
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The only reason Essendon got of lightly re cap cheating is it happened under Ron Evans presidency. The Essendon prez who got lumped with it has never been happy with inheriting Evans mess.
 
Slax said:
Have spoken to a few lawyers today, people whom all said the Essendon and Hird appeals through the courts here were laughable and would fail are also saying no chance of winning an appeal in the Swiss system. The bigger problem for them is to get an injunction against the suspension, apparently you need to show a complete miscarriage of justice to get the injunction against the suspension and that just isn't going to happen here, so it means players are suspended until hearings are complete which might mean after the season is over anyway so worthless.
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If somebody does launch an appeal i think it's preferable there's no injunction as it'll just delay the suspensions.

I don't know about worthless, I'm sure the players would be interested in clearing their names even if suspended.
 
Lance Uppercut said:
true, and they are great points. I'm certainly not suggesting in any way shape or form that any deviation would be government driven. Does it follow that the government would take a punitive approach to any decision made by a governing body though? Particularly one as pervasive through the political class as the AFL?
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Depends where the marginal seats are .
 
If there are injunctions and the players free to play, what does the AFL do about the fact Essendon have a larger list that the rest of the comp, and a bigger salary cap thanks tot he top-ups? They can't just cancel the contracts.

(Don't bother with COLA comments, we've heard them all before).
 
Bunk Moreland said:
I don't know about worthless, I'm sure the players would be interested in clearing their names even if suspended.
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To get a suspension from CAS overturned they'd basically need Dank to take the stand and produce the evidence he has claimed he has kept and that just isn't going to happen because Dank doesn't have anything that will clear the players names
 
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