Phar Lap v Makybe Diva

[sp-mac]

A thread for the debate over weather one is as good as the other.

My nomination: Phar Lap. Just.

Makybe is the best I've ever seen in my life and three Melbourne cups and a Cox Plate is unbelievable, but I'm just putting Phar Lap ahead for two reasons.

1) His winning ratio- comparable to Bradman's average.
2) The way he won- Makybe Diva won her races well but Phar Lap made the other horses eat his dust.

Phar Lap won just one cup but won everything else like Derby, Caulfield etc and was good right from the get go while Makybe Diva won her races late in her career.

But Makybe Diva had to compete against the best stayers in the world for her cups which Phar Lap did not.

 

[AntiX]

and you were around to see phar lap in action?

you can't compare things from one generation to the other. the world changes, so in this case, the way the horses where trained also CHANGES. the on;y true comparisons you can make are horses around the same era.

 

[ablett factor]

why compare?
lets just be happy that this generation has witnessed one of the greatest horses of all time.

 

[demon21]

and you were around to see phar lap in action?

you can't compare things from one generation to the other. the world changes, so in this case, the way the horses where trained also CHANGES. the on;y true comparisons you can make are horses around the same era.

Well we all still say that Bradman is the best cricket player of all time and he played in a different generation. so does that mean people should stop saying that.

 

[Punt_Road_Roar]

Who knows what Phar Lap could have achieved , dont forget that he actually died before his time was up.

 

[Bartram_Class]

Why do we need to compare, both champions.

3 cups speaks for itself though.

 

[trizzles]

In my mind, this is no longer a matter of comparing two of the greatest that have ever graced the turf, rather a consideration and acknowledgement of what both horses have achieved.
Both Phar Lap and Makybe Diva have both brought to us something incredible; something that is not easily done - happiness and great thrill. Whether this be in the times of the depression or the current day, both horses have managed to light up the hearts of a nation.
The hype before Makybe Diva's races this campaign was extraordinary and she stood up to every challenge. When the going got tough, she was always there to get going. This is the sign of a true champion in the sporting arena.
Today, I had the privilege of entering the mounting yard after her victory. It was a moment that I will never forget.
Anyone who was a part of the action, whether at the track or viewing on TV will always remember the moment they saw Makybe win her third straight Melbourne Cup. It is something that will stick with us forever.
Phar Lap was an extraordinary galloper and we all acknowledge that. What he achieved on the track was astounding. However, we will never know who was the better racehorse. They will never race head-to-head and we are only left to compare statistics, which can be deceiving. We will never, ever know the answer to our question. Perhaps it is unfortunate, but I'm not particularly phased.
Memories stay with us and cannot be taken away. The excitement and memories that Makybe Diva brought to me during her career will stay with me for a long, long time.
Phar Lap and Makybe Diva are of equal status in my opinion. They are champions of the turf and will never be forgotten. History won't allow it. However, for those who saw Makybe Diva throughout her career will forever be able to say that they saw the great mare in action. Surely for us, those memories allow her to be the best of all.

 

[Squeak]

Both have achieved stuff the other hasn't. And both have achieved more than pretty much every Australian racehorse. The need for comparison spoils the magic a bit, IMO.

 

[Angus1]

Check out the spring of 1930 and you will see why there is no comparison.
It's like saying Ricky Ponting is a great batsmen but then there is Don Bradman.
As for Makybe Diva beating the worlds best stayers???? Well who are they?
EyePopper can't even win in Japan. Leica Falcon races in Corawa and Vinnie Roe is about to retire. What did the Diva beat today?
Just on Leica Falcon, that horse needs a firm track and the VRC poured so much water on they basicaly knocked him out of contention and made it a breeze for the Diva. Bloody discrace that decision.
If the tack wasn't doctored then Leica Falcon may have got past the great one. Oh that's right Diva was going to be scratched if she didn't get the track she wanted. What a joke.

Anyway back to Phar Lap. Check his record. I don't have it in front of me but from memory it's around 37 wins. He came 2nd in the cup one year carrying around 62.5 kg. Anyway his stats should be easy to look up but i couldn't be bothered at the moment. He was a freak man.

 

[Angus1]

Hey If she wins another 2 cox plates then maybe we will compare her to Kingston Town. lol
I'm just having a laugh but now that i think about it it's probably a better comparison then Phar Lap.
2000 meter races always draw better quality horses then the 3200 meters of the Cup.

 

[Clayton]

Phar Lap for mine he's in a league of his own, I know I wasn't around in his era but I just look at what he achieved & what he might of.

Hell can you imagine if he was trained in the modern era?

Goes without saying though both are Champions.

 

[smeagol_17]

Check out the spring of 1930 and you will see why there is no comparison.
It's like saying Ricky Ponting is a great batsmen but then there is Don Bradman.
As for Makybe Diva beating the worlds best stayers???? Well who are they?
EyePopper can't even win in Japan. Leica Falcon races in Corawa and Vinnie Roe is about to retire. What did the Diva beat today?
Just on Leica Falcon, that horse needs a firm track and the VRC poured so much water on they basicaly knocked him out of contention and made it a breeze for the Diva. Bloody discrace that decision.
If the tack wasn't doctored then Leica Falcon may have got past the great one. Oh that's right Diva was going to be scratched if she didn't get the track she wanted. What a joke.

Anyway back to Phar Lap. Check his record. I don't have it in front of me but from memory it's around 37 wins. He came 2nd in the cup one year carrying around 62.5 kg. Anyway his stats should be easy to look up but i couldn't be bothered at the moment. He was a freak man.

Hey theres no need to bag the Diva! she won becasue she was the best (not only now but for the last three years) and lets not forget that she is the only mare to win with that amount of weight. So Im either quessing that the horse you puntered on lost or your just a big sour grape.
Also just to meantion, they watered the grounds for the horses safetly sakes because the race track was going to be extremely hard and if you had any knowledge about horses, it would have been extremely taxing on their legs (and it wasnt a soogy track it was just moist so it wouldnt have stopped Leica Falcon winning-he just wasnt good enough) and could had more horses breakdown.
Also what would have happened if it had rained if it had like last year??? Would you have would you have blamed god for Leica Falcon not winning??? Anyway the horse actually ran quite well for fourth so I dont see how it was knocked out of contention-it made it to the top five. And whats not to say Makybe Diva isnt a freak? no other mare has ever been as good as her.

 

[smeagol_17]

Hey If she wins another 2 cox plates then maybe we will compare her to Kingston Town. lol
I'm just having a laugh but now that i think about it it's probably a better comparison then Phar Lap.
2000 meter races always draw better quality horses then the 3200 meters of the Cup.

Wheres the proof they draw the best quality horses??? Are you saying that the Cup is made up of a bunch of dudes??? Seriously you really need to get the facts right or your a complete idiot.
Did you also think about the heat of the cup yesterday? It was very hot and for MD to win in that heat in that style with those weights was a magnificant preformance and you cant take that away from her.

 

[nut]

Check out the spring of 1930 and you will see why there is no comparison.
It's like saying Ricky Ponting is a great batsmen but then there is Don Bradman.
As for Makybe Diva beating the worlds best stayers???? Well who are they?
EyePopper can't even win in Japan. Leica Falcon races in Corawa and Vinnie Roe is about to retire. What did the Diva beat today?
Just on Leica Falcon, that horse needs a firm track and the VRC poured so much water on they basicaly knocked him out of contention and made it a breeze for the Diva. Bloody discrace that decision.
If the tack wasn't doctored then Leica Falcon may have got past the great one. Oh that's right Diva was going to be scratched if she didn't get the track she wanted. What a joke.

Anyway back to Phar Lap. Check his record. I don't have it in front of me but from memory it's around 37 wins. He came 2nd in the cup one year carrying around 62.5 kg. Anyway his stats should be easy to look up but i couldn't be bothered at the moment. He was a freak man.

DID Phar Lap race against the Worlds best Stayers????????

Check out the times, Makybe's time would beat Phar lap by about 20 lengths.

 

[Unwritten_Law]

Check out the times, Makybe's time would beat Phar lap by about 20 lengths.

LOL.

Like comparing Ian Thorpe's times to Sir Frank Beuarepaire. Training schedules etc. have come on a bit since then.....

 

[Half Back Flanker]

DID Phar Lap race against the Worlds best Stayers????????

Yes, yes he did

http://www.equinenet.org/heroes/phar.html

After proving himself the best in Australia, Phar Lap was invited to the Agua Caliente Handicap, a race to be held in Mexico and offering s $50,000 purse (big money in those times). The opportunity to go on to race in America where new challenges awaited and the purses were larger than most of the Australian ones was too much to resist, so off they went to a new adventure on a new continent. Phar Lap travelled by ship across the Pacific ocean, arriving in rainy San Francisco and then had a 400 mile trip in a horse van to Tijuana where the weather was very hot. And this for a horse that was facing winter back in his homeland.

Phar Lap had to carry 129 pounds, more than most of the other horses in the race, against some of the best horses in America who had come down to Mexico for a chance at the $50,000 purse, plus he was racing on dirt for the first time, not the nice, cushioned grass he had always raced on. On arrival he was starting to grow his winter coat, his body preparing for an Australian winter, not a Mexican spring. Then he suffered a painful injury to his heel, which usually means time off. Because of the hoof injury, Phar Lap had to wear heavy bar shoes for the first time in his life.

A lot to overcome! But the Australian Big Red was ready; Phar Lap broke slowly, slowly gained ground as he got his stride, and then circled the field from last place in his usual style to win easily by two lengths in the record time of 2:02 4/5, cutting 1/5 second from the previous track record.

He was a celebrity, all the newspapers rejoiced at his win, calling him the "Super Horse", the "Australian Wonder Horse" and more. He was taken north to prepare for his American racing career. Alas, it was not to be.


................................


We all know what happened next, but yes he raced against the best Handicappers from the US and won.

Makybe though, great and is not far behind.

 

[Deej]

Was Makybe Diva ever asked to carry 68kgs in any race, let alone the cup, like Phar Lap was?

 

[Deej]

why compare?
lets just be happy that this generation has witnessed one of the greatest horses of all time.

We've actually seen 3 or 4 of the greatest of all time, in the last 10 years. Makybe Diva would be the best stayer of that group, but not the best sprinter or middle distance wfa performer.

 

[Squeak]

I was just thinking about how Sunline and Northerly have been forgotten very very quickly.

 

[Deej]

And Might and Power too! Was an absolute machine over 2400, as good as diva is i wouldn't have worried too much her reeling in the great M&P over that distance. Hell she had 2 cracks at the caulfield cup and didn't quite get there, so you could hardly say it was her pet distance.

Might and Power ran his cox plate 8 seconds quicker than MD did hers. That equates to about 45 lengths.

 

[Deej]

....and furthermore, re this thread, Phar Lap died at an age that was, comparitively speaking, before Makybe Diva had even won her first cup.

What would PharLap's record be like had he raced until 7yo, like MD? And even more, what about had he not been crippled with weights like the 68kg he got in his third cup tilt? MD had 58 yesterday, I'd suggest had PharLap had 58 in his third cup he'd have walked it in.

 

[blqld]

And Kingston Rule would have beaten the diva by about 15. These type of threads are useless. Both were the best of their time.

 

[Deej]

And Kingston Rule would have beaten the diva by about 15. These type of threads are useless. Both were the best of their time.

That's sort of my point. Comparisons are useless, but more than that i think they are disrespectful and based on ignorance and hype.

 

[Angus1]

Hey theres no need to bag the Diva! she won becasue she was the best (not only now but for the last three years) and lets not forget that she is the only mare to win with that amount of weight. So Im either quessing that the horse you puntered on lost or your just a big sour grape.
.

Where did i bag the Diva? And no I picked Makybe Diva to win.

Also just to meantion, they watered the grounds for the horses safetly sakes because the race track was going to be extremely hard and if you had any knowledge about horses, it would have been extremely taxing on their legs (and it wasnt a soogy track it was just moist so it wouldnt have stopped Leica Falcon winning-he just wasnt good enough) and could had more horses breakdown.
.

Actually i do have some knowledge of horses. For the track to be as hard as you say it would have been rated Fast. Melbourne tracks are rarely ever rated as fast these days for the very reasons you mentioned. But please there was no way known they would have raced on a fast track. What they have done is watered a track which was rated as good (how it should be) and poured so much water on it was downgraded to Dead. I have never ever seen this happen before. If you have then please let us all know where and when.
K McEvoy the jockey said that the ground was chopping up and Leica Falcon did not handle it all that well. The trainer Freher said that he would have prefered a good track as it would have been if it wasn't watered so much.
Eye Popper also didn't like the soft track nor did Xcellent even though he finished a fantastic 3rd he prefers firmer tracks as do about 90 % of all good horses.

Also what would have happened if it had rained if it had like last year??? Would you have would you have blamed god for Leica Falcon not winning??? .

Arrrgghhh... Look i didn't back Leica Falcon i just used that horse as an example of a horse that prefers firmer tracks that are rated good. Hell i could have picked another 15. Eye Poppers conections were furious.
If it had rained then that would have made it look even more rediculous for watering so much wouldn't it. Remember Vintage Crop??? Remember how the track was heavily watered after Weld complained about hard tracks then on cup morning it rains an inch resulting in a very Heavy track.

And whats not to say Makybe Diva isnt a freak? no other mare has ever been as good as her.

Hey i never once bagged the Diva and i agree she is a freak.

Wheres the proof they draw the best quality horses??? Are you saying that the Cup is made up of a bunch of dudes??? .

Actually most of the horses in the Melbourne Cup are duds. They aren't hopeless but they are hardly worthy of a Cox Plate entry. Hell Eye Popper hasn't even won at group 3 level in Japan.
This years feild would have to be one of the weeker feilds in recent years. I think most people would agree. Australia isn't really known for it's great stayers. That's more of a British thing where they race up to 4000 meters.

Seriously you really need to get the facts right or your a complete idiot.
.

Getting a bit nasty here. Ok you give me the facts. Make a list of the first 3 home in previous Melbourne Cups and i will make a list of the first 3 home in previous Cox Plates and lets see whose list has the better horses.
Actually i couldn't be bothered doing that but even just thinking of it now makes my list look pretty awesome.

DID Phar Lap race against the Worlds best Stayers????????
.

Of course he did he went overseas and won remember. He beat the worlds best. How did Makybe go overseas ?
Ok that was a bit mean because the Freedmans weren't able to convince the officials to water the track and it was to firm for her. She doesn't handle firm tracks fair enough.

Check out the times, Makybe's time would beat Phar lap by about 20 lengths.

Time is about the most irrelevent thing to worry about when rating a horse. Sectional times are important but overall time is quiet misleading. For example if a horse like Vo Rogue is in a race it makes the middle part of the race quiet fast because he is out so far and others are trying to catch him. Races in England on the other hand have a fairly slow middle section because for one the feild is very small so there is no need to push for a good position plus the horses are bred for long staying races so they just don't have the speed to stop and start like our horses do. They just grind along smoothly then build up over the final stages.


Anyway I'm done defending myself and I wasn't trying to have a go at the great Diva more just thinking that people are getting a little carried away. The Hun today has more comparrisons with Phar Lap and even Freedman says he is a little embarrassed by it. Hell i'm not even sure if she is better then Might and Power and Kingston Town well no i don't think so.
One thing is for sure though I doubt we will ever see another horse win 3 M Cups in a row. Mainly because after they win the first one they normally don't enter again. Handicapper usually makes it too hard. Any other horse winning 2 would most likely carry at least 60 kg and thus not enter.

 

[smeagol_17]

Well the reason why I had a go at you Angus 1 was simply because your thread came across like you were having a go at her and that if the track wasnt watered she wouldnt have won. Thats why I got a little irrated and that a few people had complain about the track because it hindered certain horses preformances which in otherwords they only watered the track for Makybe Diva. This is compleletly wrong, they are even going to water the track today if it didnt rain so they didnt just do it for the Melbourne Cup they did it because the ground was going to be rock solid.
Why cant ALL people just except that she won fair and square and that she is the best mare not only today but in history. I believe retireing her now was a good idea although she is showing that she has a lot more in her. However, shes got nothing more to prove.