Analysis Pies made mistakes.

[DAWESOME!!]

But what's the alternative. Keep them together until you all go over a cliff like the Saints did?

You look at every club that has had sustained success and you'll find that in the space of five years, they'll have turned over their list plenty. The Hawks of 2013, let alone 2014 have a hell of a lot of changes since 2008. So with the Swans of 2014 vs the Swans of 2012 or 2010.

Things don't stay the same. Players wax and wane and the competition and the playing styles change. If you stay the same, everyone else goes past you at a rate of knots.

 

[good4footy]

But what's the alternative. Keep them together until you all go over a cliff like the Saints did?

You look at every club that has had sustained success and you'll find that in the space of five years, they'll have turned over their list plenty. The Hawks of 2013, let alone 2014 have a hell of a lot of changes since 2008. So with the Swans of 2014 vs the Swans of 2012 or 2010.

Things don't stay the same. Players wax and wane and the competition and the playing styles change. If you stay the same, everyone else goes past you at a rate of knots.

Probably the best post on the thread.

 

[Manic Magpie]

The inescapable fact is that we finished in 9th place after a dismal end to the season. Our playing squad are a largely lack-luster group of foot soldiers, few of whom have the skill set to help us rival the top 4 clubs of this year or the up and coming clubs of the future. Our injury toll has been outrageously high, suggesting that many of our players have brittle bodies liable to break down again in the future. Far too many players have made it clear that they would rather play elsewhere rather than remain with us. We will probably find once again that the best available players for trade will opt for Hawthorn, Sydney or Geelong rather than Collingwood. The young players seem willing enough to sign with us but we have a problem retaining older players, who either want out of the club or break down at age 30 when similar aged players at other clubs continue to add value to their teams. I see no reason to jump aboard the Buckley bandwagon because from where I am sitting it ain't going nowhere fast.

 

[Starcevich90]

But what's the alternative. Keep them together until you all go over a cliff like the Saints did?

You look at every club that has had sustained success and you'll find that in the space of five years, they'll have turned over their list plenty. The Hawks of 2013, let alone 2014 have a hell of a lot of changes since 2008. So with the Swans of 2014 vs the Swans of 2012 or 2010.

Things don't stay the same. Players wax and wane and the competition and the playing styles change. If you stay the same, everyone else goes past you at a rate of knots.

The Hawks and Swans have indeed made changes in recent years (while keeping their core together, it must be said) but their changes have largely been IMPROVEMENTS, much of the time through seasoned players.
Tell me how we've actually improved by losing Dawes, Wellingham, Thomas, Shaw, Davis at the time, Krakouer this year, and now Lumumba??
Yes, you will say Scharenberg, Freeman, Broomhead, Grundy, Kennedy etc, etc, but they are all still in nappies. They haven't improved us, they have actually sent us backwards because the influx of youth is too great and sudden.
Good teams don't do it like this, they bring one or two youngsters through with a strong senior core around them.
We have tipped the balance too far to youth, and their development and our club will actually suffer.
GWS and Gold Coast case in point.

 

[Manic Magpie]

The Hawks and Swans have indeed made changes in recent years (while keeping their core together, it must be said) but their changes have largely been IMPROVEMENTS, much of the time through seasoned players.
Tell me how we've actually improved by losing Dawes, Wellingham, Thomas, Shaw, Davis at the time, Krakouer this year, and now Lumumba??
Yes, you will say Scharenberg, Freeman, Broomhead, Grundy, Kennedy etc, etc, but they are all still in nappies. They haven't improved us, they have actually sent us backwards because the influx of youth is too great and sudden.
Good teams don't do it like this, they bring one or two youngsters through with a strong senior core around them.
We have tipped the balance too far to youth, and their development and our club will actually suffer.
GWS and Gold Coast case in point.

Not to mention that 2 of the young stars of the future have been crippled by the most horrendous of injuries inn the first year at the club. Whatever our intention, we sure know how to pick them! Scharenberg and Freeman seem unlikely to make a meaningful contribution for quite some time. Our over dependence on youth sees us start behind the rest of the competition in 2015.

 

[THATSGOLD]

The inescapable fact is that we finished in 9th place after a dismal end to the season. Our playing squad are a largely lack-luster group of foot soldiers, few of whom have the skill set to help us rival the top 4 clubs of this year or the up and coming clubs of the future. Our injury toll has been outrageously high, suggesting that many of our players have brittle bodies liable to break down again in the future. Far too many players have made it clear that they would rather play elsewhere rather than remain with us. We will probably find once again that the best available players for trade will opt for Hawthorn, Sydney or Geelong rather than Collingwood. The young players seem willing enough to sign with us but we have a problem retaining older players, who either want out of the club or break down at age 30 when similar aged players at other clubs continue to add value to their teams. I see no reason to jump aboard the Buckley bandwagon because from where I am sitting it ain't going nowhere fast.

Try 11th.

 

[loki04]

Sure that is possible or maybe it would have been 1 more year just as likely. Leon did fluctuate a bit. Still I understand the clubs decision at the time and Caff has had a bad run with injury but still performed very solidly for the last 2 seasons. Been a very good tagged by AFL standards and that is not bad. Blair is irrelevant because , rightly , his position was not in question in 2011. Caff's was.

Still seeing you bought Blair up it is interesting to note that when this decision re Leon's future was being decided Blair was coming off a season as mainly a defensive small forward where he kicked 26 goals for the year. Leon's last year as a defensive small forward at Collingwood was 2010 where he kicked 27 goals. Leon's biggest year at collingwood for goals was 2009 when he got 35. Maybe Leon at the end of his career wouldn't have been such a big upgrade.

On the Blair vs Leon conversation;

I bet you leon had a shit load more Goal assists, also he demanded 100% respect from opposition or would carve it up Blair not so much players run off him constantly.


Apples and oranges.

 

[1980GFVideo]

15 games...95 kicks...51 handballs....12 goals.....obviously he spent most of his time coaching Sav and didnt have much time for anything else..

Sticking up for Brereton here because I never thought I would do it and want to see how it feels.

His contribution went beyond his stats and his presence helped Sav that year. Collingwood wanted him to continue but he was taking too many painkilling injections even for him.

Brereton has got better over the years as a commentator of football and he was simply responding to Jollys remarks. Better to rehash something football than try and be funny.

oooh that felt creepy doing that.

 

[good4footy]

We beat 3 of the 4 sides that remain in the competition. That is no fluke- 3 of the 4.

Despite the things that went wrong, at our best this year we were able to match it with the best. Our list profile suggests we will improve from here.

Personally, I am very disappointed with the injuries during the year and we obviously made mistakes in this area. However, there is not one player we have moved on the last few years that I would want back or see as a mistake.

 

[rose jam]

The inescapable fact is that we finished in 9th place after a dismal end to the season. Our playing squad are a largely lack-luster group of foot soldiers, few of whom have the skill set to help us rival the top 4 clubs of this year or the up and coming clubs of the future. Our injury toll has been outrageously high, suggesting that many of our players have brittle bodies liable to break down again in the future. Far too many players have made it clear that they would rather play elsewhere rather than remain with us. We will probably find once again that the best available players for trade will opt for Hawthorn, Sydney or Geelong rather than Collingwood. The young players seem willing enough to sign with us but we have a problem retaining older players, who either want out of the club or break down at age 30 when similar aged players at other clubs continue to add value to their teams. I see no reason to jump aboard the Buckley bandwagon because from where I am sitting it ain't going nowhere fast.

So would you rather be Geelong who have zero chance of winning a premiership any time soon and continue to replace great players with OK ones, hang around 4-6th for the foreseeable, or move out enough players to get a young group coming through together at the same time and do everthing to access high in the draft to make that happen?

 

[jmac70]

The inescapable fact is that we finished in 9th place after a dismal end to the season. Our playing squad are a largely lack-luster group of foot soldiers, few of whom have the skill set to help us rival the top 4 clubs of this year or the up and coming clubs of the future. Our injury toll has been outrageously high, suggesting that many of our players have brittle bodies liable to break down again in the future. Far too many players have made it clear that they would rather play elsewhere rather than remain with us. We will probably find once again that the best available players for trade will opt for Hawthorn, Sydney or Geelong rather than Collingwood. The young players seem willing enough to sign with us but we have a problem retaining older players, who either want out of the club or break down at age 30 when similar aged players at other clubs continue to add value to their teams. I see no reason to jump aboard the Buckley bandwagon because from where I am sitting it ain't going nowhere fast.

Your fact is wrong and your description of our playing list is your opinion. Sorry but You and THATSGOLD wil not be invited to my Christmas party. Fun killers.

 

[jmac70]

AA in 2009 and a devastating midfielder/forward and Also AA in 2011 at the opposite end of the ground as backman and then retired.

You just don't throw away these players who are still at the peak of their powers.

I just don't see this team improving with guys like Blair and Macaffer still on the list when you consider the players we have let go. Blair is better than Caff but if he cannot become a genuine midfield option he has no role in our side. He is rubbish as a small forward and Caff whilst a decent tagger really offers us nothing. He is taking up a midfield number and having little influence.

I was always a fan of Leon but he would almost have to have been the biggest fall guy on this board during most of his career. It's funny now that he is being used as another reason for Buck's failure. Can you please remind me how he played in the GF replay? He has a medal so surely he must have played.

 

[BlackWhiteBlood]

It all depends on how you look at success vs mistakes. if you are happy with finals footy every year but not challenging for the flag, then mistakes have been made with our delistings/pick-ups over the past few years. Even with Jolly/Daisy/Dawes/Leon in the team I don't believe we would have challenged for the flag over the past few years.But would have stayed in the 8.

But looking long term I would rather drop out of the 8 for a year or two, get good draft picks and develop them. Thus developing a squad that has real potential to challenge for the top 4 in a few years. Then when we get close we get a GOOD FA that tips us over the edge for a serious tilt at the title. I think this is what is occurring therefor no serious mistakes have been made.

The method of getting a FA, to give you that bit extra is proven. Stuart Dew in '08 (different situation but the Hawks got him to win a premiership), Jolly & Ball for us in '10 & Lake '13 Hawks. Sydney are trying it this year with Buddy, North with Del Santo, Hawks still have Lake. Power I think are the exception.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

This is the issue.

We still haven't replaced the players like Jolly, Didak, Davis and Brown. They were all key role players for is in that successful period and they were all left or cooked after 2011.

We have not been able to find a decent mature ruck, talented mid/half forward, third forward ruck or a decent kick out of the back line. No surprises we have fallen when four of our most important players are gone. The young premiership list thing was a myth.

In 2015 Witts will be a decent mature ruck. Grundy is about a year behind him. All we need is a VFL standard depth option.
Elliott is the mid-half forward you refer to, and he missed quite a few games and played a lot more at half fitness. Interestingly he played 17 games but 10 of them were winning games.
Third forward ruck is an issue, potentially. White is not THAT bad but was asked to play key position with Reids injury. Not the role he was recruited for. And Gault showed a bit late. And Grundy will be a year older so he and Witts may be better forwards as they mature. So maybe we dont need to go out and buy a fix.
Defence is an issue with injuries to Reid Brown and Maxwell, our depth was tested for sure.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I was always a fan of Leon but he would almost have to have been the biggest fall guy on this board during most of his career. It's funny now that he is being used as another reason for Buck's failure. Can you please remind me how he played in the GF replay? He has a medal so surely he must have played.

Is that the one he got dropped for after failing in the drawn game?

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Personally, I am very disappointed with the injuries during the year and we obviously made mistakes in this area. However, there is not one player we have moved on the last few years that I would want back or see as a mistake.

I'd have Heater back tomorrow. But I dont see it as a mistake, the trade for Adams was fair and resonable and the reasons for trading Shaw were understandable.

 

[jmac70]

Is that the one he got dropped for after failing in the drawn game?

Yes, although apparently if he had stayed we would have won the 2012 flag.

 

[Jasper84]

The Hawks and Swans have indeed made changes in recent years (while keeping their core together, it must be said) but their changes have largely been IMPROVEMENTS, much of the time through seasoned players.
Tell me how we've actually improved by losing Dawes, Wellingham, Thomas, Shaw, Davis at the time, Krakouer this year, and now Lumumba??
Yes, you will say Scharenberg, Freeman, Broomhead, Grundy, Kennedy etc, etc, but they are all still in nappies. They haven't improved us, they have actually sent us backwards because the influx of youth is too great and sudden.
Good teams don't do it like this, they bring one or two youngsters through with a strong senior core around them.
We have tipped the balance too far to youth, and their development and our club will actually suffer.
GWS and Gold Coast case in point.

We replaced them with F.A who have arguably provided the same level output as the players mentioned whilst refreshing the list with early draft picks. I would call that an improvement. And who is say that Leon would still have the drive to play beyond 2012? This is a guy who decided to call time on his career when he wasn't offered the money he thought he deserved. Doesn't exactly scream "I want to play in the AFL".

 

[No SPIN]

Hahaha the "greed" of Dawes! Your moniker is quite ironic.

This is a guy who signed with us on massive unders for four years, and was basically shown the door two years in. What are you supposed to do when you're told a hack like Lynch is our new preferred option and you're best off looking elsewhere?

Dawes bled black and white in his time at us and was a great clubman who always gave his all. No amount of spin can alter that fact I'm sorry.

Is is generally known the above is not true. Dawes was simply told he would have to fight for his spot, and the spat the dummy and left.
I look forward to your substantiation of the opposing view above.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Is is generally know the above is not true. Dawes was simply told he would have to fight for his spot, and the spat the dummy and left.
I look forward to your substantiation of the opposing view above.

Lynch was recruited to replace L Brown who which woudl have freed Dawes up to be Dawes. He spat the dummy a bit, I agree. Which is his right. None of us were in that meeting so hard to know exactly what took place, but Dawes was contracted and could easily have elected to stay and fight for his spot in the 22. At the end of the day the Pies were happy to get some cap relief anyway .

 

[Batty123]

In 2010 Collingwood had more players on their list with 200 games experience or who played their 200th game during that season than any other team in the AFL. We had 7 - O'Bree, Prestigiacomo, Lockyer, Leigh Brown, Fraser, Johnson and Davis. I know not all of them played in the Grand Final but it was still a lot of experience to have around the club, during pre-season, on the track etc. The reality was that the club was going to have to start replacing those players as soon as the ink was dry on the 2010 scorecard.

If you look at the 2 best performed teams over the last 7-8 years - Geelong and Hawthorn you can see why they have had sustained success.

In 2007 - Geelong had 1 bloke on their list with 200 games experience (Milburn entered the season on 189). In fact every other club in the AFL that year had more 200 gamers than the Cats.

In 2008 - Hawthorn had 2 blokes (Crawford and Croad). As a comparison in 2008 Carlton (11th) had 1 player, WC (15th) had 2 - otherwise Hawthorn had the least amount of 200 gamers.

Both Hawthorn and Geelong have been in a unique position whereby the haven't had to replace guys who have amazing experience and knowledge. This has allowed them to develop a really strong group, be very tactical with their drafting and free agency and they've only really had to identify small gaps in their list.

By the time Geelong won the 2011 flag they had 9 guys with over 200 games experience on their list - they now look to be in the stages of going backwards as they have had to replace Ottens, Milburn, Scarlett, Corey, Ling etc.

If Hawthorn make the grand final this year they will have 8 guys on their list with over 200 games - all will need to be replaced shortly.

There are plenty of people who have quite a valid argument that we cost ourselves more flags by changing too many things but in my opinion the age breakdown of our list indicated that change was going to have to happen at some point. This wasn't something Geelong in 07 or Hawthorn in 08 had to be concerned with and as a result they've had this amazing extended run. I don't think Collingwood winning only 1 flag in this time period is indicative of mistakes - we just weren't as fortunate as Hawthorn and Geelong with our list.

 

[Markfs]

Sticking up for Brereton here because I never thought I would do it and want to see how it feels.

His contribution went beyond his stats and his presence helped Sav that year. Collingwood wanted him to continue but he was taking too many painkilling injections even for him.

Brereton has got better over the years as a commentator of football and he was simply responding to Jollys remarks. Better to rehash something football than try and be funny.

oooh that felt creepy doing that.

It's good to see a Richmond supporter out and about. I'm sure "Dermie" will be grateful for your support. I would like to think that my appearance in the outer at Victoria Park also assisted Sav that year. I waved to him on several occasions and it really seemed to lift his confidence. Unfortunately, I moved interstate with a job and I could no longer go to the footy. I realise now that Sav's output went down in subsequent years and I feel a little guilty because of that. I think we all have regrets about some parts of our life. Good luck in the future and let's hope the Tigers keep winning games so you can continue to go to the footy.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Was the video even invented in 1980? I think not

 

[Yonchi]

All this talk about Leon Davis is very interesting. My view is that while he was all Australian in 2011, that was while he was playing in a backline of a team that finished with year with a percentage of 170. Leon Davis may have been exciting and a good kick, but I can't think of a time where he stood up against a hard, physical team. Year in, year out he underperformed against the better opposition teams.

Not a big loss

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

All this talk about Leon Davis is very interesting. My view is that while he was all Australian in 2011, that was while he was playing in a backline of a team that finished with year with a percentage of 170. Leon Davis may have been exciting and a good kick, but I can't think of a time where he stood up against a hard, physical team. Year in, year out he underperformed against the better opposition teams.

Not a big loss

He would have been very handy in 2012. But thats only one single year from one player in Collingwoods long history.....its doesnt amount to much in the grand scheme of things. Very unlikely hed have played beyond 2012 regardless. And given his inconsistencies over the years you never know what you wquld have got. Bottom line, he chose to retire and made that call early with the club. By the time he changed his mind there was no cap room left so was offered unders. Shit happens, we were never going to sacrifice Maccaffer just to allow Davis to change his mind and stay another season. He chose to earn nothing over something. Which reflects his commitment to the game and the club.