Analysis Pies made mistakes.

[HFF]

The Leon thing is a stupid argument, he had one more year left, and he wasn't going to make us finish higher than we did in 2012.

My point was, he was still a quality player coming off an exceptional AA year. He could have easily played out 2 years and he would still have been our best small defender or small forward.

You don't discard players who make your side better (unless it becomes untenable) and Leon would have made our side better, irrespective of ladder position.

 

[Gone Critical]

My point was, he was still a quality player coming off an exceptional AA year. He could have easily played out 2 years and he would still have been our best small defender or small forward.

You don't discard players who make your side better (unless it becomes untenable) and Leon would have made our side better, irrespective of ladder position.

Need also to factor in that if Leon had accepted his contract Macaffer was out the door. Leon changed his mind after most contracts were done and there was very little left. You can make an argument that Caff has been more important to the side going forward from 2011 than Leon would have been for another season or 2.

 

[HFF]

Need also to factor in that if Leon had accepted his contract Macaffer was out the door. Leon changed his mind after most contracts were done and there was very little left. You can make an argument that Caff has been more important to the side going forward from 2011 than Leon would have been for another season or 2.

Looking back on it, if we lost Macaffer and retained Davis, so be it.

We could and we can easily lose Macaffer from our side and you wouldn't even notice his absence. Macaffer is not the same player he was in 2010. In fact he has regressed.

 

[Gone Critical]

Looking back on it, if we lost Macaffer and retained Davis, so be it.

We could and we can easily lose Macaffer from our side and you wouldn't even notice his absence. Macaffer is not the same player he was in 2010. In fact he has regressed.

Using the same logic Leon wouldn't have got us to a premiership in 2012 or2013 if he had been able to play on. He would have been gone by 2014. So we wouldn't have noticed much difference if Leon had played on. I say that as someone who really liked Leon in the side

 

[HFF]

Using the same logic Leon wouldn't have got us to a premiership in 2012 or2013 if he had been able to play on. He would have been gone by 2014. So we wouldn't have noticed much difference if Leon had played on. I say that as someone who really liked Leon in the side

He certainly wouldn't have been the difference in terms of a premiership or what not, however he would have given us 2 better years of output than Macaffer or even a guy like Blair. Hands down.

 

[DAWESOME!!]

Yeah, stupid Buckley with his lack of 20/20 hindsight.

I think what irks me the most about the negative nellies on this board is the sense of entitlement. "We won the flag in 2010 with a young squad - a dynasty with multiple flags should have been assured, and there's no way four seasons after that we should be out of the finals!! (even if we did have stupid injuries in 2014) The only way this could have happened is through gross incompetence!“

Or maybe:
* it's a level comp and to stay at the top for more than a few years at a time takes great management and everything going right for you, which it didn't for us.
* we actually had a dynasty but the players fell short in 2011 in the GF (albeit Reid's injury hurt us) and in 2012 (albeit Ball and Macaffer's knee injuries, and the collapse of Jolly and Dawes' form hurt us as the season went on). How many years in a row did we make the Prelim? Four? And five in six years? That's a fair dynasty.
* our peak coincided with Geelong's and they were a monster team.
* our list was young, but elevated from top four to flag material by a couple of old players who we recruited knowing they only had maybe three years in them (Jolly and Ball).

Ever assuming that you deserve success, or that success should come to you in this competition is a short cut to failure and disappointment. Teams like Hawthorn and Sydney weren't just sitting on their butts resigned to being below us.

In fact the 2008 Hawks should be a great model for us. They won a flag earlier than many had projected, then fell off a little and had to substantially remake their team before rising again in 2012. They've stayed at the top since, but I bet you anything you want they won't be grandfinalists in 2016.

Teams go up and down. Good teams stay up for a long time before declining, like we have done. But good teams then also take some short term pain to rebuild rather than clinging onto something that's already past them. I think we've taken the right road. But even taking the right road and doing all the right things, of course it could still not work. That's footy and life.

 

[Mark_K]

Out of interest how many of said players do you believe should of remained and then on top of this how much do you really think that they would of vastly improved this teams ladder position?

I think if you sit back in the cold hard light of day you will see most of the decisions will prove justified.

The press is dated and was nutted out in 2011 the team who made the press what it was is not a capable team for the new direction footy has taken.

Word.

Name one player that has left the 2010 GF side that has gone onto bigger and better things?

People can whine about 'dismantling' a premiership side, but the guys we let go have not done anything to justify the uproar that has ensued, be it here or in other public forums.

 

[Mark_K]

Another thought, we often forget that the 2011 side was going backwards, anyway.

We certainly weren't playing our best football heading into the finals, and that year, i will always look at it as a missed opportunity.

Even if Mick stayed around, we needed to shake things up.

A rebuild may not have ensued, but a 'retool' certainly needed to happen if this supposed dynasty was to be fulfilled.

 

[Gone Critical]

He certainly wouldn't have been the difference in terms of a premiership or what not, however he would have given us 2 better years of output than Macaffer or even a guy like Blair. Hands down.

Sure that is possible or maybe it would have been 1 more year just as likely. Leon did fluctuate a bit. Still I understand the clubs decision at the time and Caff has had a bad run with injury but still performed very solidly for the last 2 seasons. Been a very good tagged by AFL standards and that is not bad. Blair is irrelevant because , rightly , his position was not in question in 2011. Caff's was.

Still seeing you bought Blair up it is interesting to note that when this decision re Leon's future was being decided Blair was coming off a season as mainly a defensive small forward where he kicked 26 goals for the year. Leon's last year as a defensive small forward at Collingwood was 2010 where he kicked 27 goals. Leon's biggest year at collingwood for goals was 2009 when he got 35. Maybe Leon at the end of his career wouldn't have been such a big upgrade.

 

[HFF]

Sure that is possible or maybe it would have been 1 more year just as likely. Leon did fluctuate a bit. Still I understand the clubs decision at the time and Caff has had a bad run with injury but still performed very solidly for the last 2 seasons. Been a very good tagged by AFL standards and that is not bad. Blair is irrelevant because , rightly , his position was not in question in 2011. Caff's was.

Still seeing you bought Blair up it is interesting to note that when this decision re Leon's future was being decided Blair was coming off a season as mainly a defensive small forward where he kicked 26 goals for the year. Leon's last year as a defensive small forward at Collingwood was 2010 where he kicked 27 goals. Leon's biggest year at collingwood for goals was 2009 when he got 35. Maybe Leon at the end of his career wouldn't have been such a big upgrade.

AA in 2009 and a devastating midfielder/forward and Also AA in 2011 at the opposite end of the ground as backman and then retired.

You just don't throw away these players who are still at the peak of their powers.

I just don't see this team improving with guys like Blair and Macaffer still on the list when you consider the players we have let go. Blair is better than Caff but if he cannot become a genuine midfield option he has no role in our side. He is rubbish as a small forward and Caff whilst a decent tagger really offers us nothing. He is taking up a midfield number and having little influence.

 

[No SPIN]

Buckley made a prelim with a great list it should've been a GF. With guys like Thomas Wellingham not 100% behind the turn over of coach it may have cost us a premiership.

As I said you're incapable of making a convincing argument to support your contention - if the above represents the depth of your insight on this issue then sadly I overestimated your capabilities far more than I expected.
You are very disappointing.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Believe what you want to believe. If you wish to be naïve so be it.

Leon Davis at the end of 2011 was an AA-let me spell that out for you- best 22 player not at Collingwood but in the entire competition. Yet, we didn't retain him because we put our $$$$ into other players who are still on our list and sucking up cap space and offering nothing to the team. Take your pick- names like Blair, Macaffer, Young, Lynch (until now), Clarke (until now) etc.

He very well may have retired by the time 2014 rolled around but he could have easily played on for 2012 and 2013 easily. His body was sound, he had shown no signs of slowing down in terms of his pace and his kicking was supreme- something we haven't had since coming out of defence or scoring crumbing goals.

Some of those names weren't offered a contract until after Davis rejected his.

ie: If Davis had accepted what was left in the salary cap for him, we wouldn't have been able to retain them.

Some have suggested ( mattys123 ?) that Davis changed his mind about wanting to stay at Collingwood (after having made 'going home' noises for years) and the club was caught with little money left in the coffers for him.

 

[HFF]

Some of those names weren't offered a contract until after Davis rejected his.

ie: If Davis had accepted what was left in the salary cap for him, we wouldn't have been able to retain them.

Some have suggested ( mattys123 ?) that Davis changed his mind about wanting to stay at Collingwood (after having made 'going home' noises for years) and the club was caught with little money left in the coffers for him.

Even if he did change his mind, we were obliged IMO to retain him. He was an AA that year. He wasn't in decline. He was considered best 22 in the league not just at Collingwood and he was a 10+ year servant. 3 years on and we still haven't got anyone on the list with similar traits to replace him.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Even if he did change his mind, we were obliged IMO to retain him. He was an AA that year. He wasn't in decline. He was considered best 22 in the league not just at Collingwood and he was a 10+ year servant. 3 years on and we still haven't got anyone on the list with similar traits to replace him.

If we were out of salary cap to pay him properly in 2012, then we could have offered him a 2 / 3 year contract and back ended it (ie: like what the Swans did for Buddy, but on a much smaller scale)

Not sure if that would have thrown our 2013 / 2014 salary cap position out of kilter? ... We don't know what the club would have been risking to keep him.

Or how the club felt about offering a 31 year old a 2 / 3 year contract?

I don't think many people would disagree with you that Leon would have been great to retain (I agree with you, he would have been very handy in 2012 and 2013) ... It's just that we don't know at what expense that would have been?

 

[Robroy22]

Even if he did change his mind, we were obliged IMO to retain him. He was an AA that year. He wasn't in decline. He was considered best 22 in the league not just at Collingwood and he was a 10+ year servant. 3 years on and we still haven't got anyone on the list with similar traits to replace him.

Imagine how I feel then...it's been 42 years since Johnny Greening was stolen away from us (never gonna forgive you Jimmy O'Dea)

Should I keep going on about it? Leon's gone, thanks for the memories neon.

 

[Markfs]

I think we're making progress with identifying the key mistakes made by Buckley. Letting Leon Davis go was definitely one of them. I saw someone earlier refer to Maxwell's treatment of Fasolo as another key Buckley mistake. There's a litany of them throughout his 3 years at the helm. We can only hope that he will improve next year...

 

[Chief Ten Beers]

3 years on and we still haven't got anyone on the list with similar traits to replace him.

I respect your posts but it doesn't make sense to base teams off of one player or trying to replicate the same team from 2010 like for like. Leon was the icing on the cake in 2011, much as Buddy was for Hawthorn last year as they travelling well.

I'm far more worried in our inability to find a decent full forward.

 

[Starcevich90]

If you truly believed Buck was left with a list that could win a flag you would present an analysis accordingly and explain how the age of BJ, Didak, Krakour, TAZ, Jolly, LB and the greed of Dawes, And Daisy could have been overcome.

Sadly you are incapable of constructing such a case because it's would be fanciful, and Ridiculed. So it's just easier for you to make unsupportable claims that do nothing more than reinforce you are not much of a thinker or credible in these debates.

Hahaha the "greed" of Dawes! Your moniker is quite ironic.

This is a guy who signed with us on massive unders for four years, and was basically shown the door two years in. What are you supposed to do when you're told a hack like Lynch is our new preferred option and you're best off looking elsewhere?

Dawes bled black and white in his time at us and was a great clubman who always gave his all. No amount of spin can alter that fact I'm sorry.

 

[Robroy22]

Hahaha the "greed" of Dawes! Your moniker is quite ironic.

This is a guy who signed with us on massive unders for four years, and was basically shown the door two years in. What are you supposed to do when you're told a hack like Lynch is our new preferred option and you're best off looking elsewhere?

Dawes bled black and white in his time at us and was a great clubman who always gave his all. No amount of spin can alter that fact I'm sorry.

Yep...I agree with you. Dawesy got shafted by a cheap replacement that was supposedly going to ruck.
A favourite son, hope to see him round the place at reunions and such.

 

[davywap]

Another friggin thread on this?? Surely it's time to move on and stop the hand wringing over events that occurred 3 years ago. The past is the past, let's look to the future instead of rehashing the same stuff over and over again as it is rather pointless now. Yeah mistakes were made, can't change it now so the club will have learnt from it and now is moving forward. We should all do the same.

Yeah but TG found someone new who supports his anti-Buckley crusade.

 

[Starcevich90]

Word.

Name one player that has left the 2010 GF side that has gone onto bigger and better things?

People can whine about 'dismantling' a premiership side, but the guys we let go have not done anything to justify the uproar that has ensued, be it here or in other public forums.

This is kind of missing the point. It's not what they're providing their new clubs that matters, but the hole they've left in our side and the fact we haven't successfully replaced them.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Word.

Name one player that has left the 2010 GF side that has gone onto bigger and better things?

People can whine about 'dismantling' a premiership side, but the guys we let go have not done anything to justify the uproar that has ensued, be it here or in other public forums.

Correct

This is what making a mistake with letting a player go looks like ...

... and we haven't gone anywhere near that recently (thankfully)

 

[DAWESOME!!]

This is kind of missing the point. It's not what they're providing their new clubs that matters, but the hole they've left in our side and the fact we haven't successfully replaced them.

So, it's not how good they actually are that is the issue - it's our inability to recruit anyone who is as good as we thought those guys were? Seems reasonable.

 

[Robroy22]

So, it's not how good they actually are that is the issue - it's our inability to recruit anyone who is as good as we thought those guys were? Seems reasonable.

Summed up to a tee.

 

[Starcevich90]

So, it's not how good they actually are that is the issue - it's our inability to recruit anyone who is as good as we thought those guys were? Seems reasonable.

My opinion is you can really only judge them on the output they gave us in their specific roles.

It can be extremely hard to adapt to a new environment (as our incoming recruits have clearly found), so you are not really assessing the same player.

That's why you should never break up a cohesive, established AFL unit like we've done.