Player development under Voss

[JB75]

I don't want to be overly critical of Voss given injuries, bad luck, etc... this season (even though some of that bad luck was of his own making - Raines, Fevola, sacking Joel MacDonald, etc...), however, one of the core roles of a coach is to develop players. I am concerned at some of the decisions Voss has made that, in my opinion, have had a detrimental impact on some of his players.

A couple of examples:

Patful being played out of position as a tagger for weeks and losing all confidence in his ability; going from a terrific versatile backman capable of playing on smalls and talls, great in the air and providing decisive rebound to the point that on current form he is simply not up to it. Will he come good? Who knows, many players once they've lost their self belief, never come back - hopefully he can find his mojo.

Playing Daniel Rich as a tagger on Judd - Rich does not yet have the tank or the pace to effectively tag a player like Judd, and by focussing on chasing Judd around, his own strengths (creative in and under, reading the play, positioning himself in attacking spots and hurting the opposition by foot) were negated. It will take Rich a long time to find confidence after the hiding he got last night, but in my opinion, he was set up to fail. He would be questioning his own ability today and could even be thinking that he may not make it at the elite level.

I have gone through our list to see who has actually improved as a player under Voss (starting from where each player was at about round 8 last year when the team really became his and the impact of the previous coaching staff was no longer present)

Improved:

Banfield - has improved in leaps and bounds as you would expect from a second year player
Hawkesly - has been given plenty of opportunities and was coming from a low base, jury is still out and may not make it
Cornelius - has put on weight and looks to be a genuine key position forward prospect
Leuenberger - has come on with consistent football after injury plagued 2 years
Maguire - has improved on last year and when fit, had got back to some of his best form
Rockliffe - has improved fitness and has talent, has improved as would be expected from a second year player and looks a good midfield prospect
Staker - Was a handy player at West Coast and has improved this season on that level

Similar level/Stagnated

Brown - when fit is still playing at his consistent high level
Buchanon - similar output to his swans level last year
Collier - has not improved and has not got worse - probably not going to make it
Drummond - still playing at a high level when fit and still getting injured a lot
Hanley - has not improved, can run, but poor decision making and disposal - won't make it
Johnstone - playing at a similar level to last year
Polkinghorne - has not improved this year, still doing some nice things, but struggling with his output, stagnating
Raines - Not up to it last year with the wooden spooner - still not up to it
Proud - When playing earlier this year showed some promising signs but couldn't say that he'd made significant steps forward - may have seen the last of him anyway
Rischitelli - good ordinary footballer, was last year, similar this year

Dropped off/Got Worse

Adcock - Was a talented young player who had a bit dash - now an injury riddled battler - injury partly to blame for his drop off
Austin - looked to be coming on nicely at the start of last year, but has lost form and is struggling to find the pill
Black - Time is catching up with him
Clark - Was in All Australian form last year - now battling
Fevola - not playing at the same level he was at Carton - can't take a grab to save himself and has been extremely lazy with his leads, chase, etc...
McGrath -Consistency has dropped away from last year
Merrett - was one of the premier full backs when Voss inherited him - now looks unsure of himself
Patful - gone from being a reliable defender to a liability
Power - time catching up - insipid kicking and no penetration left in his play
Redden - was having an impact in games with his run and goal kicking last year, battling away with little impact this year
Rich - terrific last year, is going backwards fast and down on confidence
Selwood - was a valuable contributer last year, hopeless this year
Sheldon - spent time in the back 6 last year and was competent - not up to it this year
Sherman - was good last year, lost confidence and form this year
Stiller - was a competent outside runner last year, hopeless now

N/A

First Year players
Charman
McCulloch
Clarke

To have only 7 players at best that are moving in the right direction and at least 15 heading south does not reflect well on a coach's ability to get the best out of his playing list.

 

[Stocka]

I think something has to be said for the players themselves though.

For instance, does J.Sherman really think his performances have been good enough to warrant staying on at the Lions in the future? For me, he is about as much value to us as Corrie and Hooper were in their respective finals years for the Lions. Worse, is that he has actually shown more than both of them put together and has been rewarded with placings in the B&F in past years. The situation that the team has been facing over the last few months was his opportunity to step up and become a genuine senior player at an elite level. In many respects Sherman has some elements of elite talent, but he is never going to be that player because he simply appears that he just doesn't want it hard enough and relies on other players to do the hard work for him.

Now, could Voss manage him any better to get a better result out of him? I don't know. But how many great players in the game do you think "need" to be managed by their coach to such a degree? I'd suggest that genuinely good players need less coach motivation as they can provide their own impetus to rise to the challenge when needed. That is the sort of thinking that wins finals and premierships.

I have no problem with Voss playing Rich on Judd at times last night (it wasn't for the entire game, after all, because Black went head-to-head with Judd in the first quarter). If Rich wants to become an elite midfield talent then he'd take last night as a lesson. If, as you suggest, he is sitting back and now questioning himself, then I'd suggest that he is mentally not up to it anyway. All great players cop a hiding every so often, yet part of what makes them great is their ability to take it on the chin and receive it as an experience that inspires them to be better next time.

Judd had a great game, but I wasn't at all disappointed with the effort that we tried to put on him defensively when it was in close and tight. Judd is probably still the best midfielder going around and doesn't have to have the "perfect" disposal of Ablett to have an impact, so he is always going to be hard to stop.

If Rich is going to be a gun player for us, then he will hopefully have relished the challenge of playing on Judd, getting to see first-hand how an absolute champion and leader goes about the game and the level that he plays at.

 

[Grimreepah]

I think the biggest difference between Redden and Rich from this year to last year is the dramatic change in perceptions from a first year player to a 2nd year player. A first year player brings with them the excitement of something new and all their faults get overlooked. By the 2nd year the honeymoon period is over and their mortality comes to the surface.

I think both have taken steps forward (not big steps, but steps nonetheless) but the perception is that they have gone backwards.

 

[charles202]

I must admit that im actually of the opposite opinion, the only thing keeping me going at the moment is watching some of the younger kids develop:

Banfiled- Stellar season, been great (needs to develop a bigger tank)
Rich - Suffering from the second year Blues (no pun intended after last night) however will be better for it in the long term.
Redden - Putting together a good second season (tackling stats are amazing)
Rockliff - Seems to be getting better each game
ACorn - Flashes of potential.
Riska - Eaily best season -gotta hope he stys

Whilst there have been those who have gone backwards its hard not to believe that injury has not affected the likes of Adcock, Brennan, Brown, Fev, Merret.

The ones who i do feel have gone backwards are Patfull, Sherman and TJ.

Patful's role has changed. Which i think was mistake however that doesnt mean that it shouldnt have been tried. Hopefully moving him back to defence will reverse the trend.

Sherman- Has showed he just doesnt have what it takes which is unfortunate given that he brings things that we need to the team in terms of pace and being able to break the lines.

TJ - Probably a bit tough. But given his age and salary just doesnt deliver enough.

Sadly this year has season the decline of both Black and Power. Black still is our most important mid, but last night highlighted that Power's days might be numbered -but not just yet (what a wonderful servant he has been).

Trying to sum up the above jumble, Voss has developed four kids into key members of our list within 12 months.

 

[_hyphy]

You both make some valid points, and although I'm not nearly as well versed as some of the astute football judges around here, I have to say that the one thing that Voss has been praised for - being able to motivate a team - doesn't seem to be there. Least not in the last 10 weeks, sans the Collingwood team. Much of the form slump is down to injuries, given, however the endeavour displayed in the North, Richmond, and Melbourne games indicates that players are uninterested in competing or Voss's message isn't resonating with them. Personally I think it's a combination of the two.

 

[chopperduck]

There is only so much a coach can do. On the field the players need to be the ones to step up and do what is needed. Too think that voss needs to tell them this in a better way is non sense. How much do people even expect from voss as coach after what, 30 odd senior games and 1 full preseason.

We are a good team in a form slump, it happens and we will come out the otherside. I see our team last year, and add staker, acorn, banfield and rocky to it and I'm excited. I then look at the likes of harwood, Bartlett and Clarke yet to play and the future looks ok.

 

[Sausage roll]

Were we the wooden spooners last year or was it melbourne(refer op)?

Raines getting three years is an extraordinary decision, when all of us could have told you he simply is a liability

 

[tate13]

I don't want to be overly critical of Voss given injuries, bad luck, etc... this season (even though some of that bad luck was of his own making - Raines, Fevola, sacking Joel MacDonald, etc...), however, one of the core roles of a coach is to develop players. I am concerned at some of the decisions Voss has made that, in my opinion, have had a detrimental impact on some of his players.

A couple of examples:

Patful being played out of position as a tagger for weeks and losing all confidence in his ability; going from a terrific versatile backman capable of playing on smalls and talls, great in the air and providing decisive rebound to the point that on current form he is simply not up to it. Will he come good? Who knows, many players once they've lost their self belief, never come back - hopefully he can find his mojo.

Playing Daniel Rich as a tagger on Judd - Rich does not yet have the tank or the pace to effectively tag a player like Judd, and by focussing on chasing Judd around, his own strengths (creative in and under, reading the play, positioning himself in attacking spots and hurting the opposition by foot) were negated. It will take Rich a long time to find confidence after the hiding he got last night, but in my opinion, he was set up to fail. He would be questioning his own ability today and could even be thinking that he may not make it at the elite level.

I have gone through our list to see who has actually improved as a player under Voss (starting from where each player was at about round 8 last year when the team really became his and the impact of the previous coaching staff was no longer present)

Improved:

Banfield - has improved in leaps and bounds as you would expect from a second year player
Hawkesly - has been given plenty of opportunities and was coming from a low base, jury is still out and may not make it
Cornelius - has put on weight and looks to be a genuine key position forward prospect
Leuenberger - has come on with consistent football after injury plagued 2 years
Maguire - has improved on last year and when fit, had got back to some of his best form
Rockliffe - has improved fitness and has talent, has improved as would be expected from a second year player and looks a good midfield prospect
Staker - Was a handy player at West Coast and has improved this season on that level

Similar level/Stagnated

Brown - when fit is still playing at his consistent high level
Buchanon - similar output to his swans level last year
Collier - has not improved and has not got worse - probably not going to make it
Drummond - still playing at a high level when fit and still getting injured a lot
Hanley - has not improved, can run, but poor decision making and disposal - won't make it
Johnstone - playing at a similar level to last year
Polkinghorne - has not improved this year, still doing some nice things, but struggling with his output, stagnating
Raines - Not up to it last year with the wooden spooner - still not up to it
Proud - When playing earlier this year showed some promising signs but couldn't say that he'd made significant steps forward - may have seen the last of him anyway
Rischitelli - good ordinary footballer, was last year, similar this year

Dropped off/Got Worse

Adcock - Was a talented young player who had a bit dash - now an injury riddled battler - injury partly to blame for his drop off
Austin - looked to be coming on nicely at the start of last year, but has lost form and is struggling to find the pill
Black - Time is catching up with him
Clark - Was in All Australian form last year - now battling
Fevola - not playing at the same level he was at Carton - can't take a grab to save himself and has been extremely lazy with his leads, chase, etc...
McGrath -Consistency has dropped away from last year
Merrett - was one of the premier full backs when Voss inherited him - now looks unsure of himself
Patful - gone from being a reliable defender to a liability
Power - time catching up - insipid kicking and no penetration left in his play
Redden - was having an impact in games with his run and goal kicking last year, battling away with little impact this year
Rich - terrific last year, is going backwards fast and down on confidence
Selwood - was a valuable contributer last year, hopeless this year
Sheldon - spent time in the back 6 last year and was competent - not up to it this year
Sherman - was good last year, lost confidence and form this year
Stiller - was a competent outside runner last year, hopeless now

N/A

First Year players
Charman
McCulloch
Clarke

To have only 7 players at best that are moving in the right direction and at least 15 heading south does not reflect well on a coach's ability to get the best out of his playing list.

Don't necessarily disagree with everything written, but I thought I'd point out a couple of things.
For instance Ash McGrath has been playing quite poorly as opposed to his stellar season last year. This is largely due to the fact that Josh Drummond and to a lesser extent Jed Adcock are out. When these two play Ash Mcgrath is seldom given anywhere near the respect he should be and tends to create a fair bit of run, as he showed last year.
Your assesments on Merrett and Patful are quite harsh and I really haven't seen a great deal of evidence that the game is catching up with Black.
Selwood, Sheldon, Stiller and Austin never really set the world on fire and I don't think a great deal of Lions fans would have held high expectations of them.
I agree with you on Luke Power but note he was by far best on ground against Collingwood.

Sherman, Clark and Rich have had ordinary seasons, however I give Rich a little bit of leniency as it is only his second year, a fact lost on many after his brilliant first year.

 

[tate13]

However your views on Rischa are almost ridiculous.

 

[Sir G]

Why do say Black has got worse/dropped off, he has playing like the champ that he is

 

[JB75]

However your views on Rischa are almost ridiculous.

I rate Rischa as a good solid contributer, he was last year and is again this year. I just think he has found his level. I have no problem with him as a footballer, but he is a b grade midfielder as he was last year - he has not improved to an A grade midfielder. Are you suggesting he has improved this year?

 

[JB75]

Why do say Black has got worse/dropped off, he has playing like the champ that he is

Black is still a good player, but he is slower, finding it harder to find space, unable to consistently chase and give second and third efforts, and has turned the ball over more than he has done previously. I don't mean to criticise Black, he is a veteren and it would be expected that his performance would be gradually deteriorating as the years creep up. He is still playing good football, but cannot carry the midfield like he once did. It is really an indictment on the list that noone has stepped up so that Black could be our third or fourth midfielder and not get tagged so heavily.

 

[acuguy]

Rischa has stepped up bigtime this year, last year he played almost as a defensive forward, this year he has earnt the onball position and has made the most of it.

Our big issue is our recruiting. We have missed so much of late it is rediculous, we have overlooked both Selwood and Rioli and for that or recruiters should be shot! People say hindsight is a wonderful thing but so is the ability to spot elite talent! That is where we have gone wrong of late!

 

[Grimreepah]

IMO:

Improved:

Banfield - significant
Rockliff - significant
Rischitelli - not elite, but very consistent and much improved
Maguire - performed well above expectations
Staker - performed well above expectations
Leuenberger - steady
Cornelius - steady (still early days)
Polkinghorne - steady
Rich - steady
Redden - gradual

Can't Judge

Brown - injury affected
Drummond - injury affected
Charman
McCulloch
Clarke
First Year players

Similar level/Stagnated

Hawksley
Collier - continues to show little
Hanley - probably needs games in seniors to make a proper assessment
Johnstone
Raines - still needs work
Proud - developing very slowly
Merrett
Sheldon - different roles. Was just OK last year, and again this year.

Dropped off/Got Worse

Buchanon - performed below expectations
Adcock - injury affected, but his standing is in decline
Austin
Black - nearing the end/not necessarily coach's fault
Power - nearing the end/not necessarily coach's fault
Clark - signficantly less impact after career best year
Fevola - performed slightly below expectations (hard to pinpoint just how much injury has affected him)
McGrath - signficantly less impact after career best year
Patfull - biggest disappointment of the year. Probably the most evident case of Voss getting it wrong.
Selwood - no longer seems to add anything
Sherman - same role but has gone a long way backwards.
Stiller - has regressed a little
Brennan - very good before injury, but has been terrible since he came back


As is expected, younger players are tending to get better and older players tending to get worse. But as has been mentioned in other threads, it's the lack of improvement from the middle aged group that is costing us the most.

 

[dothebowdenshuffle]

IMO:

Improved:

Rich - steady

Similar level/Stagnated

Raines - still needs work
Merrett


As is expected, younger players are tending to get better and older players tending to get worse. But as has been mentioned in other threads, it's the lack of improvement from the middle aged group that is costing us the most.

Being a Richmond supporter I know how painful unrealised expectations can be.

I agree with 90% of your individual assessments. Probably rate Rich more in the similar/stagnated level category and merrett in Injury/Can't assess category with Brown. Raines was coming off a low base as he only played around 5 games in previous 2 seasons with us. 3 year contract was a huge risk at the time and not looking much better atm.

Worrying sign that the likes of Brennan, Patfull, McGrath, Clark, Sherman and co have collectively had such poor seasons. In a comp that is extremely tight and competitive it only takes a small % drop off to mark a considerable slide.

On a brighter note Staker has been great, ACorn is very impressive as are Rockliff, Banfield, Redden and Leuenberger. More energy needs to be put into heading down that path.

I also think Fev and his off-field antics have been a massive distraction. All that media attention seems to have drained your team in much the same way as Cuz and the media circus that accompanied him did to us last season.

To his credit Voss has been pretty open and honest about your team's sub-par performances. He could easily have become overly defensive but hasn't.