Training Pre season training

[SaintWrld]

Do you know what days they'll be training each week?

Not 100% for certain but I would presume they would continue holding their main training sessions on the Monday, Wednesday, Friday schedule until they start playing weekend games. They usually return with a 3km time trial though so maybe one this Thursday?

 

[gringo2011]

Again, more than likely a coaching issue.
He clearly had the talent, but where was the development?
A good coach will help increase confidence.
And maybe he wasn’t encouraged to trust himself and take the game on.

They are kids when selected, they need the direction - our development has been notably shocking in the past as we have all agreed. Timing is everything, in sport as in life and sadly a lot of his issues have been due to the timing of having been at St.K at the same time as two pretty ineffectual coaches and coaching departments. Something that appears to be changing finally.

Think about what Ross did for the careers of average players like Zac Dawson, Mini and others.

There is a lot of luck in footy. Guys like Billings were at the wrong club at the wrong time. He would have been a gun developed in a winning side. Like Stephenson going from the Pies to North, the wrong move can ruin your career. Injury got him too but self confidence ever recovered from having the burden of the Saints on his back.

 

[gringo2011]

Yes. 171 games of being very well paid for being a constant underachiever...because the club was too shit scared of losing "perceived" talent. What I will say about Jack Billings is that he was a shrewd business man, that should have never got beyond low middle management but knew how to excise top dollar by reading the room of the club. I don't owe poor Jack feckin' Billings any kindness. He's open to scrutiny and open to opinion because he plays a professional game. He could've proved me wrong with actions, but never did. I'm open to scrutiny and opinion too ...and that's fine, because I'm prepared to stand by them against everyone if needs be. There's other clubs with shitty coaches too. Good players however, are good because they rise above mediocrity in any circumstances. That's just life in general really.
As for Bont comparisons... it's just another excuse for people to cry "poor Billings" and pardon his general shittiness.
Anyway, you should see what I have ready for Max King this year if he doesn't show up.

I still feel sorry for them. We never learnt anything from Billo. Still lumping expectations and big money on a kid before he's done anything. Usually massive burden does nothing good for players. At least for King he'll be a nice surprise if he makes an elite player. He's not one of a few who have to carry all our hopes.

It was't long ago that Josh Bruce, Newnes and Membrey were our cream and guys like Billings and Gresham were all our hope for the future. Acres, McKenzie, Mattress, Dunny etc had already disappointed.

 

[gringo2011]

I have no doubt a decent coaching staff could have helped him, but he really needs to shoulder some of the blame himself.

He really did seem to play it safe.

I was a defender of his for a long time. I was always waiting for the penny to drop and for him to really step up and try to take games by the scruff of the neck. I honestly don't think he had the disposition for it.

I see someone like Hugo Garcia and that passion and hunger is just dripping off him.

To be fair he probably performed to expectation for his age until he started getting constant minor injury. He just didn't have the right psychology to carry a side or step above the average player. If he'd been able to be a classy finisher in a exceptional side he would have been a gun.

We definitely seem to be finding guys with real drive now. Phillipou, Wilson, Garcia and Widhager all seem to have a real hunger for success and set standards. Even Bynes types have it too. He does every extra session possible and does extra in the off season.

 

[Mr_R0b0t]

There is a lot of luck in footy. Guys like Billings were at the wrong club at the wrong time. He would have been a gun developed in a winning side. Like Stephenson going from the Pies to North, the wrong move can ruin your career. Injury got him too but self confidence ever recovered from having the burden of the Saints on his back.

Good points Gringo. The other is player development with JB. We were horrible in this area until Damien Carroll arrived & in this modern era. I think in some ways this killed a lot of player potential looking back in history, they just never developed.

 

[akaifu]

Good points Gringo. The other is player development with JB. We were horrible in this area until Damien Carroll arrived & in this modern era. I think in some ways this killed a lot of player potential looking back in history, they just never developed.

Agreed. So many players either never hit expectation or did so at another club. No coincidence that as soon as our development staff changed, this problem faded

Billings
Newnes
Lee
Wright
White
Dunstan
Acres
McCartin (not really their fault)
Goddard
Long (improved instantly at GC)

All pre-Carroll era

Followed by (Carroll joining ahead of season 2022)

King* (mostly injured throughout Carroll's tenure)
Byrnes
Nas
Chito
Windy
Pou
McLennan
Keeler*
Caminiti
Wilson
& many others who have shown really promising signs (but are nowhere near conclusive evidence of good development)

Another difference is that hardly any of our late picks (except Marshall) turned out to be AFL standard pre-Carroll, whilst now we have the likes of Sincs Wilkie Byrnes Sharman Windy (NGA) Caminiti Garcia Arie all looking like they have, or at least will, outperform their pick value

 

[gringo2011]

Agreed. So many players either never hit expectation or did so at another club. No coincidence that as soon as our development staff changed, this problem faded

Billings
Newnes
Lee
Wright
White
Dunstan
Acres
McCartin (not really their fault)
Goddard
Long (improved instantly at GC)

All pre-Carroll era

Followed by (Carroll joining ahead of season 2022)

King* (mostly injured throughout Carroll's tenure)
Byrnes
Nas
Chito
Windy
Pou
McLennan
Keeler*
Caminiti
Wilson
& many others who have shown really promising signs (but are nowhere near conclusive evidence of good development)

Another difference is that hardly any of our late picks (except Marshall) turned out to be AFL standard pre-Carroll, whilst now we have the likes of Sincs Wilkie Byrnes Sharman Windy (NGA) Caminiti Garcia Arie all looking like they have, or at least will, outperform their pick value

We were pretty desperate to sell 18 year olds as the future and heap expectation and pressure on them. Players can come in and play their role in a Lyon side. Not get every touch scrutinised.

I don't think Carroll is the only reason standards have improved. Generally we have been spending on creating a football department designed to get the best out of the side. I can remember attending training out at Seaford. The staff and standards were embarrassing. The kids footy club was running drills equal to what we were doing and similar coach to player ratios.

Peta Searl looked like the only one who gave a **** but the players were not taking her as seriously as the males though. It was a ****ed era. Guys like Hamill were ****ing around like they were mates having a kick at the park. When the club spoke about the future barely anything was about moving forward. Everything was about inclusivity and embracing our mediocrity.

 

[Banger9798]

Agreed. So many players either never hit expectation or did so at another club. No coincidence that as soon as our development staff changed, this problem faded

Billings
Newnes
Lee
Wright
White
Dunstan
Acres
McCartin (not really their fault)
Goddard
Long (improved instantly at GC)

All pre-Carroll era

Followed by (Carroll joining ahead of season 2022)

King* (mostly injured throughout Carroll's tenure)
Byrnes
Nas
Chito
Windy
Pou
McLennan
Keeler*
Caminiti
Wilson
& many others who have shown really promising signs (but are nowhere near conclusive evidence of good development)

Another difference is that hardly any of our late picks (except Marshall) turned out to be AFL standard pre-Carroll, whilst now we have the likes of Sincs Wilkie Byrnes Sharman Windy (NGA) Caminiti Garcia Arie all looking like they have, or at least will, outperform their pick value

Acres as steak knives still kills me.
Giving player away after 3-4 years of development is insane. McEvoy comes to mind.

 

[Mr_R0b0t]

Agreed. So many players either never hit expectation or did so at another club. No coincidence that as soon as our development staff changed, this problem faded

Billings
Newnes
Lee
Wright
White
Dunstan
Acres
McCartin (not really their fault)
Goddard
Long (improved instantly at GC)

All pre-Carroll era

Followed by (Carroll joining ahead of season 2022)

King* (mostly injured throughout Carroll's tenure)
Byrnes
Nas
Chito
Windy
Pou
McLennan
Keeler*
Caminiti
Wilson
& many others who have shown really promising signs (but are nowhere near conclusive evidence of good development)

Another difference is that hardly any of our late picks (except Marshall) turned out to be AFL standard pre-Carroll, whilst now we have the likes of Sincs Wilkie Byrnes Sharman Windy (NGA) Caminiti Garcia Arie all looking like they have, or at least will, outperform their pick value

Great post Aka. I’d suggest our woeful lack of player development is due to reducing football ops costs. Which has a long term reverse impact. This isn’t too dissimilar to other clubs, such as Essendon, Carlton, Roos etc.

Where as Swans, Dees, WB, Geelong etc all have a strong player development program and their success is notable.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Great post Aka. I’d suggest our woeful lack of player development is due to reducing football ops costs. Which has a long term reverse impact. This isn’t too dissimilar to other clubs, such as Essendon, Carlton, Roos etc.

Where as Swans, Dees, WB, Geelong etc all have a strong player development program and their success is notable.

Really hoping we have now put this all behind us.

 

[wannabewinner]

Agreed. So many players either never hit expectation or did so at another club. No coincidence that as soon as our development staff changed, this problem faded

Billings
Newnes
Lee
Wright
White
Dunstan
Acres
McCartin (not really their fault)
Goddard
Long (improved instantly at GC)

All pre-Carroll era

Followed by (Carroll joining ahead of season 2022)

King* (mostly injured throughout Carroll's tenure)
Byrnes
Nas
Chito
Windy
Pou
McLennan
Keeler*
Caminiti
Wilson
& many others who have shown really promising signs (but are nowhere near conclusive evidence of good development)

Another difference is that hardly any of our late picks (except Marshall) turned out to be AFL standard pre-Carroll, whilst now we have the likes of Sincs Wilkie Byrnes Sharman Windy (NGA) Caminiti Garcia Arie all looking like they have, or at least will, outperform their pick value

A player who had his first goal nominated for GOTY . Then plays safe football for the rest of the career playing to percentages. Just head shaking kind of stuff when it comes to development.

 

[tomjoad]

I still feel sorry for them. We never learnt anything from Billo. Still lumping expectations and big money on a kid before he's done anything. Usually massive burden does nothing good for players. At least for King he'll be a nice surprise if he makes an elite player. He's not one of a few who have to carry all our hopes.

It was't long ago that Josh Bruce, Newnes and Membrey were our cream and guys like Billings and Gresham were all our hope for the future. Acres, McKenzie, Mattress, Dunny etc had already disappointed.

All those guys you mention Bruce (if we overlook the general consensus of him being a bit of a tool) Newnes, Gresham (which is probably open to debate) Membrey...they at least got the best out of themselves in spite of the club and it's coaches. If Dunstan could kick a ball he'd probably still be playing, he couldn't...so isn't. Acres, whom I genuinely feel sorry for because I feel we dicked him around, McKenzie was a heart and soul type that had flashes, if he had continuity there was something to work with... unfortunately he was made of tissue paper. Mattress was just a disaster from beginning to end for both parties, I feel just as disappointed for him as I do in him.
Just not Billings. I just don't get the thinking...to me he just coasted. I want to say it's me and not him...but that's bullshit.
IT IS HIM.
He reminds me of the Lord of the Rings movies, where in the beginning you like Bilbo, but by the end of it you just can't look at his hopeless head and his stupid feckin' big eyes for a second longer, and just wish he'd get F*cked by an Orc.
That is how I feel about Bilbo Billings.

 

[Parkysp]

Wow Tom, that's get a couch and settle in with someone qualified with a notepad level to help you. No offence but that's unhinged.

The last decade has been a cluster of thousands of reasons why we've been crap. Was it Caro and her crusade about the dreaded "culture" that made us then pick young men that weren't equipped to drag us off the bottom of the ladder? Was it their introverted nature? Was it our poor coaches that weren't able to demonstrate to those young men what was needed? Or all of that.

For the past few pre seasons all I've heard and witnessed myself occasionally is the young men that have come in and are driving standards. Are they good enough? Who knows but reading page after page about non St Kilda players is like bitching about your ex 8 years later. Move the F on...

Me. I like Hugo. I hope he makes it. Won't flog him if he doesn't. Like I can't be arsed flogging JB for not living up to my Trevor Barker ideal.

 

[Nutsngum]

All those guys you mention Bruce (if we overlook the general consensus of him being a bit of a tool) Newnes, Gresham (which is probably open to debate) Membrey...they at least got the best out of themselves in spite of the club and it's coaches. If Dunstan could kick a ball he'd probably still be playing, he couldn't...so isn't. Acres, whom I genuinely feel sorry for because I feel we dicked him around, McKenzie was a heart and soul type that had flashes, if he had continuity there was something to work with... unfortunately he was made of tissue paper. Mattress was just a disaster from beginning to end for both parties, I feel just as disappointed for him as I do in him.
Just not Billings. I just don't get the thinking...to me he just coasted. I want to say it's me and not him...but that's bullshit.
IT IS HIM.
He reminds me of the Lord of the Rings movies, where in the beginning you like Bilbo, but by the end of it you just can't look at his hopeless head and his stupid feckin' big eyes for a second longer, and just wish he'd get F*cked by an Orc.
That is how I feel about Bilbo Billings.

I know you started off with "Bilbo Billings" thinking you were being clever.. but thats Frodo Baggins.. so nice try I guess?

 

[Saintos The ITK]

Mate tbh Jamie Cox Peta searle Chowy Watters pelchen hanners Ahmet Lee ratts auntie lethers and plenty of others.
Wtf were we on?

 

[tomjoad]

Wow Tom, that's get a couch and settle in with someone qualified with a notepad level to help you. No offence but that's unhinged.

The last decade has been a cluster of thousands of reasons why we've been crap. Was it Caro and her crusade about the dreaded "culture" that made us then pick young men that weren't equipped to drag us off the bottom of the ladder? Was it their introverted nature? Was it our poor coaches that weren't able to demonstrate to those young men what was needed? Or all of that.

For the past few pre seasons all I've heard and witnessed myself occasionally is the young men that have come in and are driving standards. Are they good enough? Who knows but reading page after page about non St Kilda players is like bitching about your ex 8 years later. Move the F on...

Me. I like Hugo. I hope he makes it. Won't flog him if he doesn't. Like I can't be arsed flogging JB for not living up to my Trevor Barker ideal.

Now, now...let's not get cranky and resort to notepads and assessments. You're taking this far too seriously.
Really, you should be thanking me for stopping all the Hunter Clark palava,
I'm just having fun with you all...at my own expense and the crab that is Jack Billings.

 

[tomjoad]

I know you started off with "Bilbo Billings" thinking you were being clever.. but thats Frodo Baggins.. so nice try I guess?

Thankyou for the clarification.you are my favourite dork on here.

 

[Verdun66]

Mate tbh Jamie Cox Peta searle Chowy Watters pelchen hanners Ahmet Lee ratts auntie lethers and plenty of others.
Wtf were we on?

And people complained when we cleared the decks and got Ross ( and others) to bring us up to a level of professionalism that might get us somewhere.

Way back I did not want to just change for its own sake. But nothing better was in the offing. Ross and his take no prisoners attitude was always going to take us forward, albeit with casualties. Some might have been harsh. But that’s sport at the highest level.

 

[Desperate saint]

Great post Aka. I’d suggest our woeful lack of player development is due to reducing football ops costs. Which has a long term reverse impact. This isn’t too dissimilar to other clubs, such as Essendon, Carlton, Roos etc.

Where as Swans, Dees, WB, Geelong etc all have a strong player development program and their success is notable.

Nothing has become more apparant to me in the last 10 years is the club wide standards from the boot strapper to the recruitment and development team, to the board have to be focused -everyone has to be on the bus -to look at the club now compared to Ratts and

Mate tbh Jamie Cox Peta searle Chowy Watters pelchen hanners Ahmet Lee ratts auntie lethers and plenty of others.
Wtf were we on?

who was that scotsman that dragged us to Seaford over a few poker machines ..........

 

[Ricmel]

Agreed. So many players either never hit expectation or did so at another club. No coincidence that as soon as our development staff changed, this problem faded

Billings
Newnes
Lee
Wright
White
Dunstan
Acres
McCartin (not really their fault)
Goddard
Long (improved instantly at GC)

All pre-Carroll era

Followed by (Carroll joining ahead of season 2022)

King* (mostly injured throughout Carroll's tenure)
Byrnes
Nas
Chito
Windy
Pou
McLennan
Keeler*
Caminiti
Wilson
& many others who have shown really promising signs (but are nowhere near conclusive evidence of good development)

Another difference is that hardly any of our late picks (except Marshall) turned out to be AFL standard pre-Carroll, whilst now we have the likes of Sincs Wilkie Byrnes Sharman Windy (NGA) Caminiti Garcia Arie all looking like they have, or at least will, outperform their pick value

Not sure about this. You can definitely make this narrative work but I think it ignores the advances in drafting over the past 10- 20 years. It is far more rigorous and scientific than it was even 10 years ago. There are less misses and draftees strengths and weaknesses are far more exposed and understood. Add to this that the kids today are developed to play an AFL style game from a very young age, often identified at age 11 or 12 to be put on an accelerated program, they come into the AFL system ready to play.

I do think there has been a player development issue at St Kilda (and really who knows if that has been resolved). If you look just at he St Kilda busts you list - some of them had very obvious flaws in their game or personal make up.

But I suspect that equally the advances in the draft process and exposure of draftees leads to less busts - particularly in the early rounds.

 

[austinnn]

I've been away from this forum for a couple of weeks. I really don't want to read back, can anyone succinctly tell me if there is a reason people are discussing Billings, beyond being bored?

Happy new year y'all, hope 2025 is memorable for the right reasons!

 

[gringo2011]

A player who had his first goal nominated for GOTY . Then plays safe football for the rest of the career playing to percentages. Just head shaking kind of stuff when it comes to development.

Richo was all about telling players that they weren't very good so try to take others down to your level. You'd listen to him and want to give up. He was like some dour religious cult leader that encouraged self flagellation. Imagine being lead by a negative voice, having minimal staff and low energy training.

We drafted badly but the ones that might have needed early guidance to meet expectation got neglected at exactly the wrong time. I still think we were focussed on a very specific type of excessively nice type of kid too.

 

[gringo2011]

Wow Tom, that's get a couch and settle in with someone qualified with a notepad level to help you. No offence but that's unhinged.

The last decade has been a cluster of thousands of reasons why we've been crap. Was it Caro and her crusade about the dreaded "culture" that made us then pick young men that weren't equipped to drag us off the bottom of the ladder? Was it their introverted nature? Was it our poor coaches that weren't able to demonstrate to those young men what was needed? Or all of that.

For the past few pre seasons all I've heard and witnessed myself occasionally is the young men that have come in and are driving standards. Are they good enough? Who knows but reading page after page about non St Kilda players is like bitching about your ex 8 years later. Move the F on...

Me. I like Hugo. I hope he makes it. Won't flog him if he doesn't. Like I can't be arsed flogging JB for not living up to my Trevor Barker ideal.

If you don't laugh about it you'll cry.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

All those guys you mention Bruce (if we overlook the general consensus of him being a bit of a tool) Newnes, Gresham (which is probably open to debate) Membrey...they at least got the best out of themselves in spite of the club and it's coaches. If Dunstan could kick a ball he'd probably still be playing, he couldn't...so isn't. Acres, whom I genuinely feel sorry for because I feel we dicked him around, McKenzie was a heart and soul type that had flashes, if he had continuity there was something to work with... unfortunately he was made of tissue paper. Mattress was just a disaster from beginning to end for both parties, I feel just as disappointed for him as I do in him.
Just not Billings. I just don't get the thinking...to me he just coasted. I want to say it's me and not him...but that's bullshit.
IT IS HIM.
He reminds me of the Lord of the Rings movies, where in the beginning you like Bilbo, but by the end of it you just can't look at his hopeless head and his stupid feckin' big eyes for a second longer, and just wish he'd get F*cked by an Orc.
That is how I feel about Bilbo Billings.

That bit of imagery you came up with at the end suggests , IT IS YOU, Not Him.

 

[gringo2011]

I know you started off with "Bilbo Billings" thinking you were being clever.. but thats Frodo Baggins.. so nice try I guess?

Nerd alert.