Training Pre season training

[akaifu]

Chill guys, Boyd is a Campbell replacement and a break glass option.

Chatting to a supporter yesterday and he was insisting we should have given Heath a go. My view was that Heath was not ready and I stick to that.

So far this season he has shown signs of improvement in his tank and football craft. He like many big ruckman is a slow burn. We almost got Cox from WCE at around 25 as he couldn't get a gig because of Gardiner. Gardiner did his knee and we eventually ended up with him and he was a great recruit. Point is Cox was seen as a second rater at 25, but became a premier ruckman.
Not comparing Heath to Cox or Gardiner just that his development is slow but progressing. However...

He needs to show he is ready this season
Keeler, while getting a rucks body is more a relief ruck
Dodson is 18.

So if Roh goes down, is suspended or just needs a rest, we need a player with ruck craft. I think we should give Boyd a go before bagging the crap out of him.

Exactly. Having faith in Heath and accepting Boyd's potential recruitment are not mutually exclusive - I believe in Max but I also believe we can't force pressure onto him just because it seems like its time for him to step up. Everyone knows big men take time

We need a mature ready-made backup for the worst case scenario where Row goes down and Heath/Keeler/Dodson are all not ready. People saying we need to give Heath more opportunity are obsessed with the idea that he is ready this year without seeing any ounce of evidence of that being true - its an ideal-world, not reality

Give Boyd one year to be the last resort option. If Heath comes on, then Boyd is delisted at the end of 2025, just like Bonner was. If not, Boyd gets another year and Heath is delisted instead

 

[stfan]

BOYD

Firstly "Train with" players. Most of the players at St Kilda (or any AFL Club) who have done this do not get actually picked up. So he is only being assessed. This last spot on our list may go to another ruck, or even another player of a different type, or even be held over for the midseason draft, or yes they may recruit him. As train with ruck the club does get to see how he jells with our existing mids though.

Since when is it a choice between Boyd (or another mature fringe ruck) and a quality player?
QUALITY players simply are not an option for the SSP etc. Irrespective of whether they are a ruck, mid, forward or any position these will be passed over players, players with flaws or maybe someone that has not had a good run at things.

If you want a quality player, well you have to trade for one, use a high draft pick on an unproven player our lure a FA. We have this trade/draft period used that capital on Macrae and more draft picks in the 2024 Draft which included gaining the ruck Dodson.

And if you want a QUALITY ruck more so, as they a ready to go ruck are rare beasts. For a ready to go ruck, even an ordinary one, you really need to be viewed as a having a good chance of going deep in the finals. We will be viewed as an unlikely finalist by prospects. Many of the premiership teams have done so with ordinary ruckman, and often ones gained from another club as a trade. But ordinary to good rucks mainly go to teams who do not have a good existing No1 Ruck. We have Marshall.

AS it is in this draft the Saints arguably drafting the best young ruck in the pool. But he is 18. Heath was a MSD pick-up and so is another bargain bin selection who was only ever a rough chance to make it. Both these options are still raw. Rare is the ruck who can play well at AFL level when very young. Take Meek as an example, taken in the 2017 draft by Freo, but only really blooming this season at the Hawks after they traded for him.

Taking a player now is always about sifting through the bargain bin. Either for a player who you think can do a required role, but most likely at a GOP level OR a player who you think may have an upside (Caminiti), though often that is more likely to be in the Rookie Draft.

The now.

• Heath has only just turned 22, Dodson is only 18. Two young rucks who may be the future. Dodson definitely not ready for years, and Heath most likely still not ready.
• TC is gone
• Hayes are chop-out ruck is also gone
• Keeler a chop out ruck is only 20
• Marshall is our No1, but any player can get injured or suspended.

Ruck Needs Now

• Someone who can step-in at an OK level this season if Marshall cannot play, moreso if he is out for a while
• Someone who at Sandy can help our learning mids improve.
• Someone we can get for free

Now we may or may not pick up Boyd, or another bargain ruck. We do need one though. The club may in the end opt for a different type of player. or to wait for the MSD, but you can fully understand why the club is looking to secure another ready to go ruck.

Whichever way the club go, history shows that for pick -ups like this that you are not seeking a future superstar, but rather just someone who may be able to do an ok role now.

The club has looked around, tested out options like Soldo etc. So we are in the $1 Shop now. If our youngsters bloom in a year or two and we look like being a contender, then that will be the time when like many other clubs before us you will expend trade capital to bring in a ruck. And like many Premierships teams that may just be a solid ordinary ruck, and nota quality ruck.

 

[Leap of Faith]

Heath is as much up to it as a 26yo spud from a state league... Boyd might be a mature body but if he cant move or remain with the play he is useless and that's him at AFL level IMO.

Anyway I'm done on the Boyd discussions, I'll be waiting for the apologies if we recruit him.

I don't know how you've determined already that he's a spud. Won the Magarey Medal, 8 best on grounds out of 18 games, 100 more clearances than anyone else in the comp. By the training reports he's a massive unit. Surely worth a shot and you seem a bit dog with a bone about this.

 

[Leap of Faith]

BOYD

Firstly "Train with" players. Most of the players at St Kilda (or any AFL Club) who have done this do not get actually picked up. So he is only being assessed. This last spot on our list may go to another ruck, or even another player of a different type, or even be held over for the midseason draft, or yes they may recruit him. As train with ruck the club does get to see how he jells with our existing mids though.

Since when is a choice between Boyd (or another mature fringe ruck) and a quality player?
QUALITY players simply are not an option for the SSP etc. Irrespective of whether they are a ruck, mid, forward or any position these will be passed over players, players with flaws or maybe someone that has not had a good run at things.

If you want a quality player, well you have to trade for one, use a high draft pick on an unproven player our lure a FA. We have this trade/draft period used that capital on Macrae and more draft picks in the 2024 Draft which included gaining the ruck Dodson.

And if you want a QUALITY ruck more so, as they a ready to go ruck are rare beasts. For a ready to go ruck, even an ordinary one, you really need to be viewed as a having a good chance of going deep in the finals. We will be viewed as an unlikely finalist by prospects. Many of the premiership teams have done so with ordinary ruckman, and often ones gained from another club as a trade. But ordinary to good rucks mainly go to teams who do not have a existing No1 Ruck. We have Marshall.

AS it is in this draft the Saints arguably drafting the best young ruck in the pool. But he is 18. Heath was a MSD pick-up and so is another bargain bin selection who was only ever a rough chance to make it. Both these options are still raw. Rare is the ruck who can play well at AFL level when very young. Take Meek as an example, taken in the 2017 draft by Freo, but only really blooming this season at the Hawks after they traded for him.

Taking a player now is always about sifting through the bargain bin. Either for a player who you think can do a required role, but most likely at a GOP level OR a player who you think may have an upside (Caminiti), though often that is more likely to be in the Rookie Draft.

The now.

• Heath has only just turned 22, Dodson is only 18. Two young rucks who may be the future. Dodson definitely not ready for years, and Heath most likely still not ready.
• TC is gone
• Hayes are chop-out ruck is also gone
• Keeler a chop out ruck is only 20
• Marshall is our No1, but any player can get injured or suspended.

Ruck Needs Now

• Someone who can step-in at an OK level this season if Marshall cannot play, moreso if he is out for a while
• Someone who at Sandy can help our learning mids improve.
• Someone we can get for free

Now we may or may not pick up Boyd, or another bargain ruck. We do need one though. The club may in the end opt for a different type of player. or to wait for the MSD, but you can fully understand why the club is looking to secure another ready to go ruck.

Whichever way the club go, history shows that for pick -ups like this that you are not seeking a future superstar, but rather just someone who may be able to do an ok role now.

The club has looked around, tested out options like Soldo etc. So we are in the $1 Shop now. If our youngsters bloom in a year or two and we look like being a contender, then that will be the time when like many other clubs before us you will expend trade capital to bring in a ruck. And like many Premierships teams that may just be a solid ordinary ruck, and nota quality ruck.

Well thought out and makes total sense.

 

[Saintscomemarchingin]

BOYD

Firstly "Train with" players. Most of the players at St Kilda (or any AFL Club) who have done this do not get actually picked up. So he is only being assessed. This last spot on our list may go to another ruck, or even another player of a different type, or even be held over for the midseason draft, or yes they may recruit him. As train with ruck the club does get to see how he jells with our existing mids though.

Since when is a choice between Boyd (or another mature fringe ruck) and a quality player?
QUALITY players simply are not an option for the SSP etc. Irrespective of whether they are a ruck, mid, forward or any position these will be passed over players, players with flaws or maybe someone that has not had a good run at things.

If you want a quality player, well you have to trade for one, use a high draft pick on an unproven player our lure a FA. We have this trade/draft period used that capital on Macrae and more draft picks in the 2024 Draft which included gaining the ruck Dodson.

And if you want a QUALITY ruck more so, as they a ready to go ruck are rare beasts. For a ready to go ruck, even an ordinary one, you really need to be viewed as a having a good chance of going deep in the finals. We will be viewed as an unlikely finalist by prospects. Many of the premiership teams have done so with ordinary ruckman, and often ones gained from another club as a trade. But ordinary to good rucks mainly go to teams who do not have a existing No1 Ruck. We have Marshall.

AS it is in this draft the Saints arguably drafting the best young ruck in the pool. But he is 18. Heath was a MSD pick-up and so is another bargain bin selection who was only ever a rough chance to make it. Both these options are still raw. Rare is the ruck who can play well at AFL level when very young. Take Meek as an example, taken in the 2017 draft by Freo, but only really blooming this season at the Hawks after they traded for him.

Taking a player now is always about sifting through the bargain bin. Either for a player who you think can do a required role, but most likely at a GOP level OR a player who you think may have an upside (Caminiti), though often that is more likely to be in the Rookie Draft.

The now.

• Heath has only just turned 22, Dodson is only 18. Two young rucks who may be the future. Dodson definitely not ready for years, and Heath most likely still not ready.
• TC is gone
• Hayes are chop-out ruck is also gone
• Keeler a chop out ruck is only 20
• Marshall is our No1, but any player can get injured or suspended.

Ruck Needs Now

• Someone who can step-in at an OK level this season if Marshall cannot play, moreso if he is out for a while
• Someone who at Sandy can help our learning mids improve.
• Someone we can get for free

Now we may or may not pick up Boyd, or another bargain ruck. We do need one though. The club may in the end opt for a different type of player. or to wait for the MSD, but you can fully understand why the club is looking to secure another ready to go ruck.

Whichever way the club go, history shows that for pick -ups like this that you are not seeking a future superstar, but rather just someone who may be able to do an ok role now.

The club has looked around, tested out options like Soldo etc. So we are in the $1 Shop now. If our youngsters bloom in a year or two and we look like being a contender, then that will be the time when like many other clubs before us you will expend trade capital to bring in a ruck. And like many Premierships teams that may just be a solid ordinary ruck, and nota quality ruck.

Someone who likes fatty food & a beer or two. Crossley for mine, but it's Boyd truly.

 

[Wintle]

Well thought out and makes total sense.

Absolutely.

 

[bakes10]

Boyd makes sense to me in 2025. However for 2026 I think we'd be 1 ruck too many on our list if both he and Moose are still on the list.

 

[saintmike65]

Boyd is TC 2.0
Pure contingency and doesn't block the development path for our kids.
If the penny drops for Moose, Keeler or Dodson then Boyd doesn't play in front of them.

The Boyd rookie spot is the least contentious appointment in fact is plain common sense.

It does block development of young rucks…to justify putting him on the list he’d be first choice ruck for Sandy!
What then happens to Heath & Dodson?

 

[Leap of Faith]

It does block development of young rucks…to justify putting him on the list he’d be first choice ruck for Sandy!
What then happens to Heath & Dodson?

Yeah I get that argument. But with no Boyd what would you do if ROMA goes down?

 

[thekizzler]

It does block development of young rucks…to justify putting him on the list he’d be first choice ruck for Sandy!
What then happens to Heath & Dodson?

Or they could just let the boys fight it out at training and on matchday for the ruck spot at Sandy?

That scenario is just as plausible as the one you suggested.

Competition is healthy, not a negative.

IMO, in an ideal world, we sign Boyd as cover and Heath steps it up a gear.

 

[thekizzler]

It does block development of young rucks…to justify putting him on the list he’d be first choice ruck for Sandy!
What then happens to Heath & Dodson?

In reality, if Heath is not able to beat out the competition from Boyd (if we sign him) and Dodson to be Sandy no.1 then he isn't going to be much chop at AFL level.

He shouldn't just be gifted 'development' time because he was first on the list or a 'project' player.

 

[stfan]

It does block development of young rucks…to justify putting him on the list he’d be first choice ruck for Sandy!
What then happens to Heath & Dodson?

This is probably the main negative of picking up a mature ruck.

However at 18 with Dodson his development may actually be helped by playing him in other positions while his body fills out, rather than in the bash and crash of first ruck, that the the new rules allow, against mature bodies of other VFL rucks.

So in 2025 I would see the ruck being mainly be shared by Heath and Boyd if we do pick him up.

For 2026 you will have a better idea if Heath/Boyd should be persevered with.

Boyd may be just a one year filler.

 

[stfan]

Boyd makes sense to me in 2025. However for 2026 I think we'd be 1 ruck too many on our list if both he and Moose are still on the list.

Yes that may be the case.

By end of 2025 the Club should know whether Heath has a future or not. Ditto for Boyd.

Mind you that "future" for either may still be as "cover" rather than ever being a No 1 Ruck in the firsts.

Rare is the Club that has two rucks capable of being the "Big Dog" No1 Ruck. Dees tried to do it with Gawn and Grundy and that just made both less effective.

 

[Jay Beast]

It does block development of young rucks…to justify putting him on the list he’d be first choice ruck for Sandy!
What then happens to Heath & Dodson?

Would think beating a mature ruck from the SANFL, who has found his way onto an AFL list in a rookie spot at the age of 26 is the lowest bar for a kid with genuine first team potential.

Basic minimum to earn a spot.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

It does block development of young rucks…to justify putting him on the list he’d be first choice ruck for Sandy!
What then happens to Heath & Dodson?

Sandy is about development even if the actual Sandy people would like to believe it’s about winning the comp.

So, Boyd rucks quarters 1 and 3, and Heath rucks quarters 2 & 4. When not rucking they play forward. Dodson to do the chop outs each quarter. Share the ruck work and development all around.

That’s how I’d manage it in the absence of RTB actually going with 2 rucks in the seniors.

 

[Grav]

Goober just because his mum is hot?

Exactly - everyone.......vote for Goober!!!

Saturday 22nd March 2025, AFL StKilda vs Geelong attendance 2,500
Sunday 23rd March 2025, VFL Sandringham vs Geelong attendance 73,500

 

[From 45]

No one is saying that he is a guaranteed star, but you are DEFINITELY saying he won't be useful based on next to no research and being a pleb on Big Footy.

Surely we don't need to revisit this again? lol. Big Footy is like bashing your head against a brick wall of egos haha.

Right at this second, based on previous VFL form, Heath, Keeler and Dodson are not ready to play no.1 ruck. They will hopefully be based on a pre-season and some more VFL games.



Boyd is a possible free hit at a player that could be something, or not, and I find it hard to not be amused by your opinion on the situation because it is not supported by literally anything concrete.

I really don’t know why we spend the big bucks on a team of recruiters when we can hire a bloke sitting in a recliner in his undies, while smashing a box of cheezels, who can instantly identify talent after watching a single game on TV.

And you wonder why we are in this position

 

[Significant]

With our away draw to start the year, Boyd may not actually play much VFL anyway if he is the carry over emergency. Hopefully gives Max and Dodson some responsibility and growth.

 

[ESPN8 The Ocho]

However at 18 with Dodson his development may actually be helped by playing him in over positions while his body fills out, rather than in the back and crash of first ruck, that the the new rules allow, against mature bodies of other VFL rucks.

This is the second level impact that I alluded to in another thread.

If no Boyd (or similar) and Ro goes down, Max will play the role in the ones, for good or bad.

But does anyone believe having an 18yo puppy play the senior ruck at Sandringham is going to be good for his development?
The kid barely shaves, still has his puppy fat physique, and would be absolutely monstered.
How is that good for his physical, professional, and mental development?
How irresponsible is that by the Club, to place the “best” ruck prospect in the draft in such an invidious situation?

We do not want to do a Jack Watts.

 

[Significant]

The two elephants in the room for me - our tweeners in the forwardline, and replacing Battle.

Owens and Sharman. We all love them and consider them Best 22, however I think they are hurting our structure on two fronts - an inability to provide pressure and lock the ball into our forward line, and not being able to play a clear supporting ruck option.

King is locked in, you'd have to say Higgins is too based on performance, leaves 4 spots for pressure forwards and a 2nd ruck support, and I think having both Sharman and Owens are crippling one or both of these.

I must say, unlike others, I consider these two specialist forward roles as critical in a modern structure, whilst others won't have that view.

I won't harp on about the Battle replacement because others have covered it well. I actually thought the most important free agent for us to lock up next year was Balta until he re signed.

Thoughts on the Owens/Sharman point?

 

[akaifu]

It does block development of young rucks…to justify putting him on the list he’d be first choice ruck for Sandy!
What then happens to Heath & Dodson?

50/50 split between Heath and Boyd while Dodson is majority forward to develop his forward craft to start. Dodson Heath 50/50 2026 and beyond

 

[Leap of Faith]

Lots of “should haves”. You say we “should have found a decent alternative”. Do they think they haven’t been trying? I don’t understand the thinking that provides no mature bodied cover if Roma goes down. You’re saying that unless we get a quality ruckman as back up then it’s not worth having one. There’s some merit in that, but two things.

1. If Marshall goes down and Heath isn’t up to it, who would you play in the ruck?

2. Whether or not Harry Boyd can play at AFL level remains to be seen. Pretty harsh IMO to be writing him off so soon and equally harsh to be condemning the club and using it as example of our incompetence for not magically manifesting a higher quality Tom Campbell replacement.

And further to that. Another way of assessing the club's competence in the 'find a Tom Campbell replacement' project is that they seriously looked at Soldo coming to the Saints.They successfully negotiated with him and he would have been a Saint except for the club doing its due diligence on his fitness and deciding his knee wasn't worth the risk. Now how welcome a change is that for the management of our club? Dan Hannebery and Simon Lethlean come on down. Football management actually making a call from a conservative place rather than grasping the first available option.

 

[kick it lace out]

Seems like we delisted TC because we were confident we would land Soldo. Once that fell through, it seems we scoured the state leagues to find a back up and decided on Boyd. Although I’m not convinced he’s AFL quality due to his lack of height and mobility, he will provide valuable back up if Marshall misses games.

 

[Significant]

And further to that. Another way of assessing the club's competence in the 'find a Tom Campbell replacement' project is that they seriously looked at Soldo coming to the Saints.They successfully negotiated with him and he would have been a Saint except for the club doing its due diligence on his fitness and deciding his knee wasn't worth the risk. Now how welcome a change is that for the management of our club? Dan Hannebery and Simon Lethlean come on down. Football management actually making a call from a conservative place rather than grasping the first available option.

Wouldn't be surprised if the knee check was smoke and mirrors. Dare say Ports position on their contracted player would have determined the price for him, and once we heard that, we weren't going to entertain it.

 

[From 45]

Wouldn't be surprised if the knee check was smoke and mirrors. Dare say Ports position on their contracted player would have determined the price for him, and once we heard that, we weren't going to entertain it.

Highly doubt that it was all smokes and mirrors as that would get out in the industry pretty quickly and that would hurt our chances of attracting any future players