Discussion Prison Bars debate

[Dazzler9]

Non profit organisations can incorporate too.

 

[Heardy_101]

Seriously Travis, you really have no idea about Ports history or heritage of the back story of our bid to enter the VFL/AFL

This isn't the Bay, so please take your mindless garbage elsewhere.

 

[Dazzler9]

Ideally if Port did wear its black and white wharf pylon jumper, when it played away to Collingwood it would wear a clash jumper, and when Collingwood played away to Port it would wear a clash jumper. But the AFL first have to grow a set of balls to make Eddie concede that they should have a clash jumper that is actually different to their home jumper.

See, this is where their arguments crumble even more.

They say that Port can't wear it because people would be confused, they are too similar, etc.
But look at their "away/clash" jumpers and their home jumper. How are they any different? What have they done, swapped the colours of the stripes around?

They want people to accept that as an alternative that is visually different and identifiable as different, and think that's good enough.
But Port's wharf pylon jumper, which actually is visually different in design, they say that that is too similar to their jumper?

Collingwoods clash is clearly distinct from its home. They could play an intra club match in their respective guernseys and there would be no problem.

 

[Pappagallo]

Let’s not forget, Port tried to screw all the SA clubs by jumping into the AFL in 1990, which then lead to the creation of crows.

No one forced Port to do ****. They chose to abandon the PB. They chose a **** nick name, theme song and logo. And they chose teal. They did it all to themselves.

As a result of Port losing out in 90, AFL gave them the opportunity to have the next SA licence in AFL. Port accepted the licence on the condition they wouldn’t wear black and white or use magpie moniker.

Fremantle came in, and no one wanted a 17 team comp. So Fitzroy and Brisbane had to merge so this bastardised version of Port could come in.

Geez, didn’t hear much support for all the Fitzroy and Bears history from Power fans. Cause they didn’t give two shits that the only reason they got their licence was at the expense of two other clubs (one a foundation club) so AFL could maximise tv rights and profits by having one game a week in SA.

Everything about Port from the late 80’s on was all about themselves. They gave zero ****s for the history and culture of SANFL or football in their state. They chased the corporate dollar anyway they could.

This “aw shucks port are victims and the big bad AFL forced them into this deal at gun point” is ******* drivel at best, and a complete and utter lie at worse.

Soulless, plastic club willing to throw its culture and 126 years of history in the garbage to agree to enter the AFL. Not to mention screw over SANFL clubs and Fitzroy and Bears for nothing more than greed and money.

Just for the demise of Fitzroy alone, you shouldn’t ever be allowed to wear the PB in the AFL. But fact is you muppets agreed to a sign into a licence agreement which required a rebrand and to ditch your beloved PB.

Thom York couldn’t sing it any better....

You do it to yourself, you do
And that’s what really hurts
Is you do it to yourself, just you
You and no one else

Every SANFL club saw the light and applied for the 2nd SA licence in one form or another. From memory it was Port, Norwood/Sturt, Glenelg/South and “The Cartel” which was the four remaining clubs in Centrals, North, West and WWT. So don’t cry for them.

It’s a shame that the AFL didn’t do more to help Fitzroy survive but you can hardly blame Port for those decisions. There’s no reason the competition couldn’t have operated with an odd number of teams just as it did when the Crows were admitted.

 

[bomberclifford]

Every SANFL club saw the light and applied for the 2nd SA licence in one form or another. From memory it was Port, Norwood/Sturt, Glenelg/South and “The Cartel” which was the four remaining clubs in Centrals, North, West and WWT. So don’t cry for them.

Precisely, and that's not even taking into consideration that it was hardly the "AFL giving us the opportunity", the PAFC Second License bid documents filled several briefcases. The 'cartel' arrived with a manila folder.

It’s a shame that the AFL didn’t do more to help Fitzroy survive but you can hardly blame Port for those decisions. There’s no reason the competition couldn’t have operated with an odd number of teams just as it did when the Crows were admitted.

The only screwing of Fitzroy was by the V/AFL Clubs clubs at the time, including the one and only Collingwood.
Port had no say in the matter.


Some interesting things on this timeline...

http://www.footyindustry.com/?page_id=1469

1986 – September. Hecron offer 2.6 million to take control of Fitzroy. The Commission demands the same 4 million license fee that the new clubs would be paying. (The Phoenix Rises pg. 77)

1986 – October 1. VFL board of directors rejects Hecrons proposed ownership stake in Fitzroy.

1994 – In 1994 outspoken Collingwood president Allan McAlister called for a three-way merger between Richmond, Melbourne and North. In August of the same year it was revealed that the name “Melbourne Lions” had been registered and speculation continued that the Demons would amalgamate with Fitzroy despite the Lions continually vowing to go it alone. The Lions were in massive financial trouble but still demanded the club be known as the Fitzroy-Melbourne Football Club. They were preciously short of bargaining chips and couldn’t bring financial benefits, a large fanbase or a training ground to the union. Other clubs also complained that Melbourne would be able to boost their list with the best six Lions players. (Demonwiki)

1995 – August 25. The AFL commission rejects Fitzroy’s application to play four home games in Canberra in Season 1996

1996 – February 21 – Ross Oakley informs Dyson Hore-Lacy that the AFL would not support any initiative for Fitzroy to play any home games in Canberra.

1996 – July 4. AFL Presidents’ Meeting rejects the Fitzroy-North Melbourne merger. After a meeting between the administrator of Fitzroy and the AFL commission, the AFL commission recommends a Bears-Fitzroy merger. North Melbourne withdraws from the merger race. A reconvened AFL presidents’ meeting endorses the AFL commission’s recommendation of a Brisbane Bears-Fitzroy merger.

1996 – November 1. Brisbane Lions officially launch.

1997 – Port Adelaide begin playing in the AFL.

...and here we have the wonderfully magnanimous Collingwood, the saviours of the old VFL teams, coming in to save the day... errr... hold on...

1989 – The Bulldogs were insolvent and close to being placed in administration, having lost 3.9 million (The Phoenix Rises pg. 140)

1989 – October 3. The Fitzroy Bulldogs is announced at 5pm The new club would be debt free, with the accumulated deficits of both Fitzroy and Footscray paid out by redeploying the allocations from the League that would otherwise have gone to Footscray. The Bulldogs would play in Fitzroy’s colours with a Bulldog symbol. The new team would be allowed to exceed the salary cap for two years until a new playing list bedded down that would be drawn from the 125 players at both clubs. The team would train at the Western Oval and play its home games at Princes Park, and the new coach would be Rod Austin. (The Phoenix Rises pg. 143)

1989 – October 3. The Fitzroy Bulldogs is announced at 5pm The new club would be debt free, with the accumulated deficits of both Fitzroy and Footscray paid out by redeploying the allocations from the League that would otherwise have gone to Footscray. The Bulldogs would play in Fitzroy’s colours with a Bulldog symbol. The new team would be allowed to exceed the salary cap for two years until a new playing list bedded down that would be drawn from the 125 players at both clubs. The team would train at the Western Oval and play its home games at Princes Park, and the new coach would be Rod Austin. (The Phoenix Rises pg. 143)

1989 – October 6. The Save the Dogs group takes the VFL to the Supreme Court.

1989 – October 7. Footscray is given a three week reprieve by the VFL Commission. Collingwood offers to tip in money if they got got close to meeting the required amount, in return for being given Tony McGuiness. (The Phoenix Rises pg. 143).

1989 – October 22. Footscray was given back its license.

Wonder what deal was made in that fortnight? It obviously didn't include McGuiness.

Oh, here it is...

1995. May 15 – Footscray says it will oppose any attempt to introduce Port Adelaide into the 1996 season

... and anyone who is under the illusion that Port was a 'traitor' to the SANFL, then these points show you why Port did what they did.

1986 – October 20. The VFL meets with the SANFLs Bob Lee and Leigh Whicker to discuss a composite team, or relocating a Victorian club. (The Phoenix Rises pg. 78)

1987, June 22. While the WAFL had budgeted for a 30% drop in attendance, the actual figure was closer to 50% as average Saturday crowds dropped from 30,000 to 15,000. The aggregate attendance across four games on that Saturday was 11,804. (Behind the play pg 213)

 

[BlackWing]

Let’s not forget, Port tried to screw all the SA clubs by jumping into the AFL in 1990, which then lead to the creation of crows.

Everything about Port from the late 80’s on was all about themselves. They gave zero ****s for the history and culture of SANFL or football in their state. They chased the corporate dollar anyway they could.

/QUOTE]


Port Adelaide have ALWAYS been about themselves and screw everyone else. Did you not follow the old SANFL?

 

[Bwillow11]

This is all fine.

My point is that basically every other major sports league in the world has multiple teams wearing the same colours, or vaguely similar designs. We've pointed out several of those examples in this thread, despite Bwillow11 's mental gymnastics in trying to argue that none of the examples are as close, the reality is that some of them are much closer. Look at the Maple Leafs v Lightning example Pappagallo posted earlier, they're much more similar than the Port and Collingwood guernseys.

In the age of the clash guernsey, this really won't be a problem. Both clubs have strong and unique brands, and Collingwood won't be negatively affected by this in the slightest. This is like the same sex marriage debate where we have one side who is loudly shouting down a concept that doesn't affect them at all, and about 5 minutes after the change is made, that side will realise that it hasn't affected them at all and get on with their lives.

Port will always have a Port Adelaide logo on their guernsey, it's a long term tradition. That logo won't include a Magpie at AFL level, so there will be no confusion.

The argument isn't even about which international teams in other sports are similar design wise, but Australian Rules Football. For 99.9% of the world, they would have absolutely no idea that the Prison Bars and the Collingwood jumper represent different teams, and as you keep arguing about, can possibly lead to economic loss.

It doesn't matter what other leagues around the world do, because the VFA/VFL/AFL have done this before. In 1886, North Melbourne had to change from blue and white hoops to blue and white stripes, in order to distinguish them from Geelong. If I'm not mistaken Hawthorn had to change their design too. Do these instances matter though? Probably not, but AFL is its own game and can do whatever they like.

And while we are at it, the Maple Leafs and Lightning have logos on the centre of their shirts which can be used to distinguish them. But no matter what, it's a bit pathetic if two teams in an 18 team competition wear extremely similar uniforms while only 2 teams in a 32 team competition do the same.

 

[Bwillow11]

How **** is the tv you watch footy on? lol

Nice english mate.
And you're telling me when watching on TV from the broadcast view you can see the afl and other team logos on the shirt. BS

So when games are broadcast, they don't mention the teams who are playing, they don't have graphics on the broadcast with the scores with the teams at all...nothing like that eh?
You're clutching at smaller and smaller straws now.

People woudn't see that it's a different design and therefore know it's a different team..
Gee, how do other codes around the world manage with teams wearing the same colours. Must be some really confused people out there.

I'm sure those new to the game wouldn't even know which team is which. On the Ch 7 ones, maybe they don't know which name applies to each team, and on Fox, they only show three letters so people may not know what they stand for.

 

[Mofra]

God Hayes is having a shocker

 

[caloschwaby]

God Hayes is having a shocker

Wrong thread?

 

[El_Scorcho]

The argument isn't even about which international teams in other sports are similar design wise, but Australian Rules Football. For 99.9% of the world, they would have absolutely no idea that the Prison Bars and the Collingwood jumper represent different teams, and as you keep arguing about, can possibly lead to economic loss.

How? Is the argument that someone might buy a Port guernsey instead of a Collingwood one? Is there any more to it than that?

It doesn't matter what other leagues around the world do, because the VFA/VFL/AFL have done this before. In 1886, North Melbourne had to change from blue and white hoops to blue and white stripes, in order to distinguish them from Geelong. If I'm not mistaken Hawthorn had to change their design too. Do these instances matter though? Probably not, but AFL is its own game and can do whatever they like.

Fortunately for Port and Collingwood, their designs are already different and distinct. There isn't really a precedent for this sort of thing though in modern sport that i'm aware of.

And while we are at it, the Maple Leafs and Lightning have logos on the centre of their shirts which can be used to distinguish them. But no matter what, it's a bit pathetic if two teams in an 18 team competition wear extremely similar uniforms while only 2 teams in a 32 team competition do the same.

I'm really just using it as an example that this happens in major sports leagues all over the world without having a negative impact on any of the teams involved. If Port wanted to wear Collingwood style thick stripes it'd be a totally different matter, but the guernseys are significantly different front and back.

 

[Cody_]

Wow some of these arguments are quite intriguing from non Port fans... just let them wear their bars. Bars at home, V for away/clash or even live dangerously and wear the 1997 away.

 

[fumbler]

ArE yOu KiDdInG mAtE cHaLk AnD cHeEsE

View attachment 675740

Isn't that Tampa's PB uniform?

Tampa originally wore Black, Blue and White and was a different pattern, they changed in 2011 to the one you showed.


What about this beast.

 

[Freight Train]

Let's entertain this dumbass theory - but if only there was something printed on the guernseys that would be a fool proof means of not accidentally buying a Port Adelaide guernsey...

 

[Pappagallo]

Let's entertain this dumbass theory - but if only there was something printed on the guernseys that would be a fool proof means of not accidentally buying a Port Adelaide guernsey...

View attachment 676600

View attachment 676601

View attachment 676602

Why are you zooming in on that Collingwood jumper?

 

[Freight Train]

Why are you zooming in on that Collingwood jumper?

ahh shit game, set and match.

#banthebars

 

[FPPF]

Nice english mate.

Out of arguments I see..that was quick.

And you're telling me when watching on TV from the broadcast view you can see the afl and other team logos on the shirt. BS

What, don't they ever show close ups of play in Victoria?

I'm sure those new to the game wouldn't even know which team is which. On the Ch 7 ones, maybe they don't know which name applies to each team, and on Fox, they only show three letters so people may not know what they stand for.

Is this even a legitimate counter point? I mean do you want me to take this as a serious response?

It's like... why would we continue with hand-ball as an aspect of the game, when no other sporting code in the world does it, like, you know, how are people who don't know the game going to know whats going on like they'll be confused and like you know....

 

[bomberclifford]

Collingwood supporters*: The PBs are too similar to our guernsey! People will get confused.
also Collingwood supporters: our clash strip is completely different to our home strip.



* Not all obviously. I've got mates who are long term Pies supporters who aren't so uptight about this issue.

 

[Pappagallo]

Collingwood supporters*: The PBs are too similar to our guernsey! People will get confused.
also Collingwood supporters: our clash strip is completely different to our home strip.



* Not all obviously. I've got mates who are long term Pies supporters who aren't so uptight about this issue.

Yeah but the back of the clash is obviously different being white with black numbers whereas the back of the Prison Bars is white with black nu hey wait a minute I meant to say trademark!

 

[Bwillow11]

Out of arguments I see..that was quick.



What, don't they ever show close ups of play in Victoria?



Is this even a legitimate counter point? I mean do you want me to take this as a serious response?

It's like... why would we continue with hand-ball as an aspect of the game, when no other sporting code in the world does it, like, you know, how are people who don't know the game going to know whats going on like they'll be confused and like you know....

The bottom line is the jumpers are similar. I can't believe I have to explain all this crap to you.

 

[FPPF]

The bottom line is the jumpers are similar. I can't believe I have to explain all this crap to you.

The bottom line is that Richmond and Essendon have the same design as their jumpers. Similarly so does Collingwood and North Melbourne. The difference being some colours.

Ports WP and Collingwoods PB jumpers are similar in that they use the same colours. The design of the Port jumper is different to the Collingwood jumper. Even the stripes are different.

Next thing we will hear from Eddie is other clubs can't have numbers on the back of their jumpers, because it's too confusing.

 

[sjohnson]

What would Port fans think of a bars-based Indigenous design? I personally think it could look very nice, but going by the vehement opposition to teal on the bars, would it also be considered a "bastardisation" of the jumper?

 

[FPPF]

What would Port fans think of a bars-based Indigenous design? I personally think it could look very nice, but going by the vehement opposition to teal on the bars, would it also be considered a "bastardisation" of the jumper?

Those that want the wharf pylon jumper full time in the AFL, or at least Port to have the right to wear it when it wants without Collingwood throwing tantrums and the AFL listening to them, want it untouched.

 

[RossFC]

What would Port fans think of a bars-based Indigenous design? I personally think it could look very nice, but going by the vehement opposition to teal on the bars, would it also be considered a "bastardisation" of the jumper?

I brought this up on the Port board that I'd like to see an Indigenous round Prison Bars style jumper next year. I don't consider that bastardising the jumper.

Edit: Same goes with away/clash jumpers. It's the home Prison Bars jumper that needs to stay the same.

 

[FPPF]