Proposal to include premierships dating back to 1870 gathering pace

[PhatBoy]

Obviously no one is stating Carter owns the Wikipedia page. The following link is a speech he gave, including in the company of the current Prime Minister. "I also acknowledge all of our sponsors – and in particular our major sponsor Ford and chief executive, Bob Graziano. Ford has supported our club for 88 years in what is the longest running sports sponsorship in the world." https://www.geelongcats.com.au/news/116687/presidents-speech

See above. You've inserted the word 'believed', Carter himself stated it as fact.

Why does that matter? Why is that a technicality? Another example of being loose with reality if he knew of those clubs and still touted the line about Ford and Geelong.

The reality is that the VFA is a different competition to the VFL/AFL. That's not an opinion, it's fact. The byline of his book reads "Reclaiming the AFL Competition’s earliest years―1870 to 1896". Simply stated, it wasn't the AFL (/VFL) competition so to claim the AFL Competition's earliest years were from 1870, as he has done, is disingenuous.

The VFL is a different competition to the AFL. Calling it the VFL/AFL is a fallacy in itself because they aren’t the same thing anymore than the VFA/VFL are the same thing.

As I said, if you choose to believe the flags should count or not is up to the individual, and I don’t think they should.

The author of the tweets uses the phrase ‘Geelong’s own Wikipedia page claims’ or some such. The phrasing he uses suggests that the club has actually made the claim; I wasn’t referring to you personally.

There are many instances where the word believed has been used. If he was stupid enough to actually state it then he shouldn’t have, but in all those published links that the twitter user links to, it says ‘believed’ I think, so at least it’s not actually stating it. Either way he could have just skirted around it by saying ‘one of the longest’ and left it at that and no one could disprove it one way or the other.

 

[Sentinel]

The VFL is a different competition to the AFL.

Yeah, you're just wrong about this.

An individual can choose to count or discount whatever they like. Carter wants to re-write the record books which is a different thing entirely.

 

[PhatBoy]

Yeah, you're just wrong about this.

An individual can choose to count or discount whatever they like. Carter wants to re-write the record books which is a different thing entirely.

If it was the same competition, it would still be called the VFL.

 

[Sentinel]

If it was the same competition, it would still be called the VFL.

This is Carter-esque level of logic.

 

[Underarm]

If it was the same competition, it would still be called the VFL.

Did Whiskas stop being the same person as Garry Hocking when he changed his name?

 

[PhatBoy]

This is Carter-esque level of logic.

Victorian Football League remains the Victorian Football League for decades because it is a football league centred around the peak of football in Victoria, yeah? It is PROBABLY the peak of football in Australia but some would debate that at times it isn’t.

Suddenly it no longer entails being the peak of football just in one locale because you have four teams based outside that state: a quarter of the teams in the competition, and soon enough that will become a third of the teams in the competition because, as much as Victoria provides the bulk of it, the rest of Australia provides a significant part of what has become a renamed competition.

It has been determined that the history and records from the previous competition and will carry over which makes sense as the previous competition was the primary and main one which these new clubs have joined, but under a new name it still becomes a new venture either way.

 

[PhatBoy]

Did Whiskas stop being the same person as Garry Hocking when he changed his name?

Yes. He became God when he did this.

 

[Sentinel]

Victorian Football League remains the Victorian Football League for decades because it is a football league centred around the peak of football in Victoria, yeah? It is PROBABLY the peak of football in Australia but some would debate that at times it isn’t.

Suddenly it no longer entails being the peak of football just in one locale because you have four teams based outside that state: a quarter of the teams in the competition, and soon enough that will become a third of the teams in the competition because, as much as Victoria provides the bulk of it, the rest of Australia provides a significant part of what has become a renamed competition.

It has been determined that the history and records from the previous competition and will carry over which makes sense as the previous competition was the primary and main one which these new clubs have joined, but under a new name it still becomes a new venture either way.

"what has become a renamed competition."

You're so close to getting it here.

 

[The Tilt]

If it was the same competition, it would still be called the VFL.

Caitlin Jenner is eight years old. True story.

 

[PhatBoy]

"what has become a renamed competition."

You're so close to getting it here.

There’s nothing to get.

Changing (in Sydney’s case) or adding 50 per cent of the teams in addition to renaming a new venture not entirely localised to where the previous one was, doesn’t automatically not happen, just because prior records etc are kept.

Keep the records etc that’s fine and doesn’t bother anyone least of all me. But pretending the modern AFL is the same competition as its predecessor is ridiculous.

 

[Sentinel]

There’s nothing to get.

Changing (in Sydney’s case) or adding 50 per cent of the teams in addition to renaming a new venture not entirely localised to where the previous one was, doesn’t automatically not happen, just because prior records etc are kept.

Keep the records etc that’s fine and doesn’t bother anyone least of all me. But pretending the modern AFL is the same competition as its predecessor is ridiculous.

A competition evolving over time does not equate to a brand new competition. It's really simple.

 

[SC_Power]

A competition evolving over time does not equate to a brand new competition. It's really simple.

No it doesn’t. The competition can do what it wants.

But claiming that it’s current position in the football landscape rewrites its historic position in that landscape, is incorrect.

AFL wants to represent the sport and its history, then it has to represent the sport and its history accurately and fairly. And it doesn’t. It promotes its own competition history above that of others, for no other reason apart of ego and Victorian arrogance.

 

[sherb]

No it doesn’t. The competition can do what it wants.

But claiming that it’s current position in the football landscape rewrites its historic position in that landscape, is incorrect.

AFL wants to represent the sport and its history, then it has to represent the sport and its history accurately and fairly. And it doesn’t. It promotes its own competition history above that of others, for no other reason apart of ego and Victorian arrogance.

Yes, the AFL, as administrator of the AFL competition whilst at the same time being the overseer of the code, is hopelessly conflicted.

 

[peetoo]

To be consistent, the 10 VFA premierships to Footscray after the VFL broke away but before Footscray came over in 1925 should also be considered

 

[Altum Volantes]

Still very happy for the Victorian teams to put all their VFA/VFL flags into one big bucket together and compare how many each other won until the end of time.

Definitely important and relevant.

 

[The Tilt]

To be consistent, the 10 VFA premierships to Footscray after the VFL broke away but before Footscray came over in 1925 should also be considered

I mean, sure, people can consider them. You just wouldn't count them as VFL/AFL premierships, since they weren't won in the VFL.

 

[Seeds]

I mean, sure, people can consider them. You just wouldn't count them as VFL/AFL premierships, since they weren't won in the VFL.

The vfl doesn't exist anymore. It's no different to pre 1896 flags.

 

[Altum Volantes]

Can it actually be decided who ‘won’ the VFA/VFL?

18XX to 1989?

Carlton? Collingwood?

Everyone just count whatever you’ve got.

Put them all on the table.

Then we’ll declare one club the overall winner of those leagues and give them some kind of retrospective giant cup and name it after a VFA/VFL legend of their choice.

That should settle it.

 

[Underarm]

Can it actually be decided who ‘won’ the VFA/VFL?

18XX to 1989?

Carlton? Collingwood?

Everyone just count whatever you’ve got.

Put them all on the table.

Then we’ll declare one club the overall winner of those leagues and give them some kind of retrospective giant cup and name it after a VFA/VFL legend of their choice.

That should settle itit.

The current club with the most premierships in the VFA/VFL is Port Melbourne with 17, however the competition is ongoing.

The club with the most premierships in the VFL/AFL is Collingwood, Carlton and Essendon with 16. This competition is still on going.

Hope this helps.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Can it actually be decided who ‘won’ the VFA/VFL?

18XX to 1989?

Carlton? Collingwood?

Everyone just count whatever you’ve got.

Put them all on the table.

Then we’ll declare one club the overall winner of those leagues and give them some kind of retrospective giant cup and name it after a VFA/VFL legend of their choice.

That should settle it.

Yep.

The VFA/VFL started awarding premierships in 1888 (not 1870, as Carter claims in order to boost Geelong’s tally).

That continues to today. Gold Coast won the 2023 VFL Premiership.

Port Melbourne have won the most with 17 (this doesn’t count Division 2 premierships, which existed from 1961 to 1988).

 

[rapidfire7]

Just give us our Premierships!

 

[PhilX]

Geelong should absolutely recognise all their premierships. As far as I'm aware, there is nothing preventing us from having all our banners flying high, from dawn to dark.

I have no idea why anyone within club would expect the AFL or other current clubs to officially acknowledge or care about our pre VFL/AFL flags, though.

 

[rapidfire7]

I have no idea why anyone within club would expect the AFL or other current clubs to officially acknowledge or care about our pre VFL/AFL flags, though.

Which is why you should read this

 

[iameviljez]

The VFL is a different competition to the AFL. Calling it the VFL/AFL is a fallacy in itself because they aren’t the same thing anymore than the VFA/VFL are the same thing.

Honestly, I'm inclined to agree with you. While I know it's very much a continuous line through time, the reality is that the competition - and the achievement in winning a flag - is unrecognisable from what it was even forty years ago.

Back in the days of the 70s and the 80s, when money (and zoning) started to talk, we only had a 12-team competition - and of that, Fitzroy, South, Footscray and StKilda were effectively competing with one hand tied behind their back.

Now it's an 18 team competition where you can no longer buy players, and we're starting to see more instances of good players, in good teams, having long careers without ever winning a flag (think Boak, Fyfe, Cripps, Neale, Tex, etc). The reality is that flags were never easy to win, but they're a lot harder now.

 

[Cyclops]

Geelong should absolutely recognise all their premierships. As far as I'm aware, there is nothing preventing us from having all our banners flying high, from dawn to dark.

I have no idea why anyone within club would expect the AFL or other current clubs to officially acknowledge or care about our pre VFL/AFL flags, though.

Entirely correct.

There is so much sloppy reasoning in this thread, and feelings overwhelming logic.

As pointed out by many recently, Geelong is enjoying a run of success unequaled in its long and celebrated history. They have always been an ornament to the league for their brilliant players, but now they have become a winning machine.

Chris Scott is their best coach, and the series of finals appearances (and not just brief glimpses, so many prelims, grand finals and even flags) is something to be immensely proud of.

This jack-a-napes Carter detracts and distracts from their present brilliance with his foolish misguided jabbering.