Proposal to include premierships dating back to 1870 gathering pace

[PhilX]

Which is why you should read this

View attachment 2108505

I'm happy to admit there is value in shedding more light on the earliest history of the game.

It's a stretch to suggest that this means VFA Premierships should be considered VFL/AFL Premierships; I could even argue it would be doing a disservice to the actual history if you were to do so.

If the book contains some compelling argument to the contrary, feel free to summarise it and if it sounds like it may have merit, I'll gladly add it to my reading list.

 

[Underarm]

Which is why you should read this

View attachment 2108505

If Geelong want to honour that period of history, name a stand after them.

 

[big_e]

If it was the same competition, it would still be called the VFL.

In the 1980s, Colin Carter wrote a report for the VFL in which he proposed adding teams from other states into the existing VFL competition. A few years later, to recognise there were new teams, they changed the name to the AFL. The VFL wasn't dissolved, with everyone having to apply for membership to the new competition, everyone just continued on as before, but with a new name. It's the same competition.

 

[rapidfire7]

I'm happy to admit there is value in shedding more light on the earliest history of the game.

It's a stretch to suggest that this means VFA Premierships should be considered VFL/AFL Premierships; I could even argue it would be doing a disservice to the actual history if you were to do so.

If the book contains some compelling argument to the contrary, feel free to summarise it and if it sounds like it may have merit, I'll gladly add it to my reading list.

"Colin Carter is a decorated football administrator who has turned his mind to the history of the game, explaining in clear terms when Victoria’s football competition began and why it is the precursor of today’s AFL competition. Colin’s case for recognising the years from 1870 to 1896, an important history lost through politics and time, is supported by facts. Supporters should approach this book with open minds and lift their eyes to the great truth—the AFL is the oldest football competition in the world."

—Mike Fitzpatrick, AFL Commission chair, 2007 to 2016.

"The Carter argument is compelling. Clearly the AFL was born of the VFA. The defection of eight clubs didn’t erase their histories pre-1897. Colin’s push maybe unpalatable with clubs whose place in premiership tallies will be adjusted negatively but a true history of the game’s origins is far more important. Clearly 1870 is the AFL competition’s birthdate."

—Mike Sheahan, sports journalist and media commentator.

Hopefully, enough for you to see that there might just be a little merit to some of Colin’s ideas.

 

[rapidfire7]

If Geelong want to honour that period of history, name a stand after them.

They will I'm sure, once his proposal finally gets through and footballing history is rightfully restored.

 

[PhilX]

"Colin Carter is a decorated football administrator who has turned his mind to the history of the game, explaining in clear terms when Victoria’s football competition began and why it is the precursor of today’s AFL competition. Colin’s case for recognising the years from 1870 to 1896, an important history lost through politics and time, is supported by facts. Supporters should approach this book with open minds and lift their eyes to the great truth—the AFL is the oldest football competition in the world."

—Mike Fitzpatrick, AFL Commission chair, 2007 to 2016.

"The Carter argument is compelling. Clearly the AFL was born of the VFA. The defection of eight clubs didn’t erase their histories pre-1897. Colin’s push maybe unpalatable with clubs whose place in premiership tallies will be adjusted negatively but a true history of the game’s origins is far more important. Clearly 1870 is the AFL competition’s birthdate."

—Mike Sheahan, sports journalist and media commentator.

Hopefully, enough for you to see that there might just be a little merit to some of Colin’s ideas.

The first quote is mostly "This is truth. Just trust me."

The second makes the argument the history is important, but not a strong one for treating one thing like another.

Still, I suspect the book is interesting even if I approach it with skepticism as to the conclusions. If it's available on kindle, I'll probably give it a read.

Edit to add: I'm not sure of the exact status of the VFL/VFA these days, but I assume it's either completely controlled by the AFL or, at least, has so little power and authority that one possible argument is that it's not in a position to act as an effective caretaker of the history of the game, leaving the AFL with a responsibility to do so. However, "lets just add the VFA Premierships to the VFL/AFL tally" still feels like a pretty simplistic solution to that issue, especially given it just conveniently happens to provide the Cats with the greatest additional prestige.

 

[peetoo]

I'm happy to admit there is value in shedding more light on the earliest history of the game.

It's a stretch to suggest that this means VFA Premierships should be considered VFL/AFL Premierships; I could even argue it would be doing a disservice to the actual history if you were to do so.

If the book contains some compelling argument to the contrary, feel free to summarise it and if it sounds like it may have merit, I'll gladly add it to my reading list.

Does it argue why geelongs VFA flags should be included but not Footscrays?

 

[Underarm]

They will I'm sure, once his proposal finally gets through and footballing history is rightfully restored.

Why can't they do it now? The AFL isn't stopping Geelong from honouring their past players and premierships in the VFA.

 

[PhilX]

Does it argue why geelongs VFA flags should be included but not Footscrays?

I think you're quoting the wrong person. I have no idea.

 

[Sentinel]

"Colin Carter is a decorated football administrator who has turned his mind to the history of the game, explaining in clear terms when Victoria’s football competition began and why it is the precursor of today’s AFL competition. Colin’s case for recognising the years from 1870 to 1896, an important history lost through politics and time, is supported by facts. Supporters should approach this book with open minds and lift their eyes to the great truth—the AFL is the oldest football competition in the world."

—Mike Fitzpatrick, AFL Commission chair, 2007 to 2016.

"The Carter argument is compelling. Clearly the AFL was born of the VFA. The defection of eight clubs didn’t erase their histories pre-1897. Colin’s push maybe unpalatable with clubs whose place in premiership tallies will be adjusted negatively but a true history of the game’s origins is far more important. Clearly 1870 is the AFL competition’s birthdate."

—Mike Sheahan, sports journalist and media commentator.

Hopefully, enough for you to see that there might just be a little merit to some of Colin’s ideas.

Neither of these quotes support Carter's view that the VFA/VFL was the same competition as the VFL/AFL, which is what makes it all so ridiculous.

"...the precursor of today’s AFL competition"
"...the AFL was born of the VFA."

You could use these same above snippets regarding England's Football League First Division and Premier League, yet no one would ever argue they're the same competition and the record books reflecting that (despite all clubs moving across to the Premier League - not only a select few as was the case with the VFL).

 

[Demonic Ascent]

No, that's not the comparison, the comparison would be if Test matches were played between counties and expanded to include international teams. Test cricket has always been played between nations, whereas the old VFL was a surburban comp that is now the AFL, which is national.

I'm merely suggesting we separate the surburban from the national, and not separating a comp having some teams to one having more teams like your example.

It's the same competition. The records of the competition go back to when it commenced, 1897. Anything else is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[Cyclops]

It's the same competition. The records of the competition go back to when it commenced, 1897. Anything else is irrelevant to this discussion.

Indeed. Listening to Carter's inane jabbering gives me a headache, its lies piled on stupidity.

Its so stupid its stunning it gets any airtime whatsoever.

 

[juss]

How many people would actually give a shit in their day to day?

Like "Hey guess what, we've won another flag back in 1878"

Like, yay?

 

[rapidfire7]

How many people would actually give a shit in their day to day?

Like "Hey guess what, we've won another flag back in 1878"

Like, yay?

I would actually. So, at least two of us.

 

[Guju]

Why are opposition/neutral supporters even giving this thread any oxygen? I know the irony of me posting here, but I just wanted to get my point across. Thread belongs on the Geelong board.

 

[juss]

I would actually. So, at least two of us.

Could you explain?

 

[Father Jack]

I have no issue with Geelong adding whatever they like to their record, they can even make stuff up if they want, but don't expect the rest of us to care.

 

[Linda Lovelace]

How many people would actually give a shit in their day to day?

Like "Hey guess what, we've won another flag back in 1878"

Like, yay?

Many muppets - Essendon and Carlton supporters chief amongst them due to being shit for so long - cling to flags they won in amateur, divided state leagues 120 years ago like they are life preservers. Because it enables some false claim to relevancy.

They are scared that if you count other flags, they may lose a place in the 'flag totals' rankings. Collingwood fans would also be in uproar if this happened.

In 1924, the VFL Premiers weren't even the premiers of Victoria. That's how much of a joke pretending these amateur state flags are of equal value to professional, national comp flags is.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

I have no issue with Geelong adding whatever they like to their record, they can even make stuff up if they want, but don't expect the rest of us to care.

Geelong definitely should, it's their club record. As a club they count whatever achievements/success they had in each comp they competed in.

As far as the premiership tally of the AFL is concerned though it is irrelevant.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

How many people would actually give a shit in their day to day?

Like "Hey guess what, we've won another flag back in 1878"

Like, yay?

How many peoples day to day lives would change if we started saying Britain colonised Australia in 1688? Or that Australia became a federated nation in 1851?

It's not about what impact it would have it is about what is historically accurate.

 

[catters05]

If it was up to me, I’d only include ones from 1990. AFL premierships.

The VFL, SANFL, WAFL can sit in other lockers.

 

[Frank Bunn]

If it was up to me, I’d only include ones from 1990. AFL premierships.

The VFL, SANFL, WAFL can sit in other lockers.

The VFL included Sydney, Brisbane and West Coast from 1987 - so it had claims to be a national competition. The name changed to AFL in 1990 but it had the same 14 teams. None of the non-Victorian teams won the flag while in the VFL so your argument is kind of valid.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

If it was up to me, I’d only include ones from 1990. AFL premierships.

The VFL, SANFL, WAFL can sit in other lockers.

Well it's not up to you. The VFL and the AFL are the same competition. Same records etc The best player in the 1989 GF won the Norm Smith medal just like the best player in the 1990 GF. Coleman Medal, Brownlow etc. Premierships are no different, they were won in the same competition which was formed in 1897.

 

[rapidfire7]

Could you explain?

A Premiership, which is officially recognised as a Premiership by the AFL is (obviously) added to the official tally.

Therefore, when Colin's dream eventually becomes a reality, a Premiership in 1931, 2022 or 1878 will all count equally.

So, of course I will care about 7 more, including 1878.

 

[catters05]

Well it's not up to you. The VFL and the AFL are the same competition. Same records etc The best player in the 1989 GF won the Norm Smith medal just like the best player in the 1990 GF. Coleman Medal, Brownlow etc. Premierships are no different, they were won in the same competition which was formed in 1897.

Yes, that’s why I wrote IF.