Public vs Private School funding

[Carn The Berries]

i took you at your word - that word being ‘medicare’

i think you’ll find that in most countries where education is publicly funded, the taxes are commensurately high. i’m not opposed to that so long as it’s regulated.

it seems our percent funding is at the high end here and in many countries adhering to government standards is a requirement. that is one key difference between education and health here. health is regulated whereas private school funding is not.

the opulence of some private schools funded bc of tax subsidies is obscene

as someone who is privately insured only bc the health system is not up to par i’m for putting money into public health to lift the standards and withdrawing subsidies to private health companies over time.

These are the sorts of comments that give question to your credibility. All school funding is regulated. You may not like what the rules say and how they are set up, but there are very strict rules and reporting requirements for non-government schools to show where and how they are using government funding.

 

[Carn The Berries]

Andrews tried to increase taxes against the elite schools in Vic and walked that back within a week of announcing it

not the usual result for him when he said he was doing something publicly

he resigned about 3 months after that

It was a stupid brain fart to begin with. I'm not defending the current funding situation, but you can't just come in and say that something like that is going to happen overnight and not expect significant pushback.

 

[Gruffles]

I wouldn't use the word enemy but on this issue, I choose to reject even the slightest defence or acceptance of the current system which is nothing less than government-supported educational apartheid. As a retired education professional (and former private school student) I reject what's happening with school resourcing with my every atom. Passing off what is currently happening as any form of fairness equality or choice is appalling. You won't get any compromise out of me. But at least you're well-mannered. That's a nice change.

Again... I'm not defending it, accepting it, or passing it off as any form of fairness or equality, yet you keep pulling it back to this. I'm trying to actually have conversation about how we could change it without a period of educational chaos that I think would likely occur if we go with the "rip the band-aid off" approach. Part of that discussion is going to be correcting incorrect statements that people make if they don't fully understand the funding model or what's happening right now... note - this doesn't mean I'm accepting/defending/etc the current model.

I asked you a series of legitimate questions that you've chosen to completely ignore to go on another emotively framed righteous rant about stuff we already agree on. I can't be bothered trying to engage any more as it continually heads in this direction. Instead I should probably go back to writing my research essay on... you guessed it... primary/secondary school funding!

 

[Gralin]

It was a stupid brain fart to begin with. I'm not defending the current funding situation, but you can't just come in and say that something like that is going to happen overnight and not expect significant pushback.

it was what we should be doing

taxing the rich is what we should be doing

its only one example

mining, billionaires, corporations

lots not paying what they should and also usually taking more than everyone else

 

[Reg Grundy35]

These are the sorts of comments that give question to your credibility. All school funding is regulated. You may not like what the rules say and how they are set up, but there are very strict rules and reporting requirements for non-government schools to show where and how they are using government funding.

Yes, there are regulations on compliance, but they are barely enforced. Same as homeschooling. Lip service at best. And there is no public reporting on the compliance levels of non-Govt schools (that was one of their requests )

 

[Reg Grundy35]

It was a stupid brain fart to begin with. I'm not defending the current funding situation, but you can't just come in and say that something like that is going to happen overnight and not expect significant pushback.

yeah and all the other approaches have worked so well? It was just another example of the well organised tactics and influence of Catholic Education in Victoria. There is absolutely no reason that these schools, as private employers should not pay payroll tax. They apparently convince peole that they shouldn't for some f****d up reason

 

[Reg Grundy35]

Again... I'm not defending it, accepting it, or passing it off as any form of fairness or equality, yet you keep pulling it back to this. I'm trying to actually have conversation about how we could change it without a period of educational chaos that I think would likely occur if we go with the "rip the band-aid off" approach. Part of that discussion is going to be correcting incorrect statements that people make if they don't fully understand the funding model or what's happening right now... note - this doesn't mean I'm accepting/defending/etc the current model.

I asked you a series of legitimate questions that you've chosen to completely ignore to go on another emotively framed righteous rant about stuff we already agree on. I can't be bothered trying to engage any more as it continually heads in this direction. Instead I should probably go back to writing my research essay on... you guessed it... primary/secondary school funding!

good luck with it. last word - every time change is mooted "don't rip off the bandaid" gets trotted out. And here we are.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

It was a stupid brain fart to begin with.

wow. telling employers to pay payroll tax like all other employers is a brain fart? there is so much garbage spoken in this debate.

 

[Gruffles]

good luck with it. last word - every time change is mooted "don't rip off the bandaid" gets trotted out. And here we are.

... seeing some level of change implemented. Also... that's blatantly not true here. Every time "rip the band-aid" off is mooted, "don't rip the band-aid off" is trotted out, mainly because it would be chaos for a generation of children in education now. How exactly would it work???

 

[The Punter]

I'm just happy to be able to spare some time to read this thread between all the time I spend indoctrinating children.

<sarcasm font off>

 

[Gough]

My year 12 English teacher let the cat out of the bag when in a moment of frustration he told us we should be more appreciative of our parents paying through the nose for him to spoon feed us.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

I'm just happy to be able to spare some time to read this thread between all the time I spend indoctrinating children.

<sarcasm font off>

Are you a school based chaplain?

 

[The Punter]

Are you a school based chaplain?

I am not a chaplain, nor am I school based.

 

[Carn The Berries]

Yes, there are regulations on compliance, but they are barely enforced. Same as homeschooling. Lip service at best. And there is no public reporting on the compliance levels of non-Govt schools (that was one of their requests )

Non-government schools are audited annually. Part of the audit is verification that funding has been appropriately categorised and used. If you can't show that public funding has been used in accordance with the regulations you don't get your audit signed off.

I'm not sure how much more enforcement than that could be expected?

 

[Carn The Berries]

yeah and all the other approaches have worked so well? It was just another example of the well organised tactics and influence of Catholic Education in Victoria. There is absolutely no reason that these schools, as private employers should not pay payroll tax. They apparently convince peole that they shouldn't for some f****d up reason

Why should they pay payroll tax when they are providing exactly the same service as the public education system? The non-government sector sets its wages in line with the public sector for this exact reason, to keep the playing field level in terms of recruitment of staff. Applying payroll tax to non-government schools would have distorted this.

 

[Carn The Berries]

... seeing some level of change implemented. Also... that's blatantly not true here. Every time "rip the band-aid" off is mooted, "don't rip the band-aid off" is trotted out, mainly because it would be chaos for a generation of children in education now. How exactly would it work???

This is the bit that people don't get. I'm sure there wouldn't be many/any tears shed for the Catholic church if they were de-funded out of education provision, but there sure as hell would be for the tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of students who wouldn't have a school to go to.

Yes, "theoretically' the government could just take over the running of these schools immediately, but practically than can't, and won't happen.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

... seeing some level of change implemented. Also... that's blatantly not true here. Every time "rip the band-aid" off is mooted, "don't rip the band-aid off" is trotted out, mainly because it would be chaos for a generation of children in education now. How exactly would it work???

you have no idea it would be chaos. That one is straight out of the private school speaking notes. No one can predict. The fallout if private fees go up probably won't be that great. Most of those parents would sell a kidney before they'd let their kids mix with the great unwashed

 

[Reg Grundy35]

This is the bit that people don't get. I'm sure there wouldn't be many/any tears shed for the Catholic church if they were de-funded out of education provision, but there sure as hell would be for the tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of students who wouldn't have a school to go to.

Yes, "theoretically' the government could just take over the running of these schools immediately, but practically than can't, and won't happen.

your chaos prediction is theoretical too so whats your point?

 

[Reg Grundy35]

Non-government schools are audited annually. Part of the audit is verification that funding has been appropriately categorised and used. If you can't show that public funding has been used in accordance with the regulations you don't get your audit signed off.

I'm not sure how much more enforcement than that could be expected?

not talking about financial audit. Govt schools in Vic have an independent review of school performance ie student performance every four years. New starategic plans grow from this review. Catholic and independent schools are not required to do the same and don't. They have internal reviews Where are you getting your information on school accountability from?

 

[Carn The Berries]

you have no idea it would be chaos. That one is straight out of the private school speaking notes. No one can predict. The fallout if private fees go up probably won't be that great. Most of those parents would sell a kidney before they'd let their kids mix with the great unwashed

Actually, I do know. The majority of non-government schools would simply cease to operate, as they wouldn't be able to raise fees sufficiently to cover the loss of funding. Many schools receive more from the government than they do from total fees (whether or not that should be the case is a separate discussion). So yes, I am almost certain it would cause chaos if the tap was turned off overnight. Some schools would be ok, a lot wouldn't be.

It's from the "private school speaking notes" because said private schools actually understand their income structures.

 

[Carn The Berries]

not talking about financial audit. Govt schools in Vic have an independent review of school performance ie student performance every four years. New starategic plans grow from this review. Catholic and independent schools are not required to do the same and don't. They have internal reviews Where are you getting your information on school accountability from?

Seemed like you were when you were arguing that they existed but weren't enforced?

I pointed out that they are actually enforced, so you decided to pivot...

 

[Reg Grundy35]

Seemed like you were when you were arguing that they existed but weren't enforced?

I pointed out that they are actually enforced, so you decided to pivot...

financial accountability enforced - education accountability - internal.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

Actually, I do know. The majority of non-government schools would simply cease to operate, as they wouldn't be able to raise fees sufficiently to cover the loss of funding. Many schools receive more from the government than they do from total fees (whether or not that should be the case is a separate discussion). So yes, I am almost certain it would cause chaos if the tap was turned off overnight. Some schools would be ok, a lot wouldn't be.

It's from the "private school speaking notes" because said private schools actually understand their income structures.

so its true because the private schools say so? taking away their money would cause chaos. Well let's just work through mitigating that shall we rather than just keep the pipeline open?

 

[RedStarUncle]

Actually, I do know. The majority of non-government schools would simply cease to operate, as they wouldn't be able to raise fees sufficiently to cover the loss of funding. Many schools receive more from the government than they do from total fees (whether or not that should be the case is a separate discussion). So yes, I am almost certain it would cause chaos if the tap was turned off overnight. Some schools would be ok, a lot wouldn't be.

It's from the "private school speaking notes" because said private schools actually understand their income structures.

Not doing something at all because doing it overnight would cause chaos... doesn't sound like a good reason to not do something.

 

[The Punter]

you have no idea it would be chaos. That one is straight out of the private school speaking notes. No one can predict. The fallout if private fees go up probably won't be that great. Most of those parents would sell a kidney before they'd let their kids mix with the great unwashed

Governments just loooove this - things they cannot predict if they make a change.

not talking about financial audit. Govt schools in Vic have an independent review of school performance ie student performance every four years. New starategic plans grow from this review. Catholic and independent schools are not required to do the same and don't. They have internal reviews Where are you getting your information on school accountability from?

Catholic schools undergo external review by the VRQA. Not opinion - I am reporting.