I of course don't intend to question your previous experience / knowledge, however, having sat in on the Federal Court case today, and having heard Justice Middleton raise this precise matter, I heavily doubt that any such information gathered unlawfully will be allowed to stand if and when the investigation thus far is deemed unlawful. It was in fact suggested that ASADA would have to restart their investigation without use of previously gathered information.
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Mega Thread Questions about the ASADA/ EFC/ players and the legal process/ defences/ liability
- Thread starter Malifice
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I of course don't intend to question your previous experience / knowledge, however, having sat in on the Federal Court case today, and having heard Justice Middleton raise this precise matter, I heavily doubt that any such information gathered unlawfully will be allowed to stand if and when the investigation thus far is deemed unlawful. It was in fact suggested that ASADA would have to restart their investigation without use of previously gathered information.
I most definitely do not proclaim to know every single form of evidence that exists (if in fact any does!) I can only claim that I have read almost every article available and like everyone else at this stage attempt to make educated assumptions. What is widely accepted however is this: ASADA's current case is predominantly built upon testimonies it received from players without providing their legal right to silence, nor to halt any opportunity to self-incriminate. Success in the current matter would have this evidence deemed null and void, thus circumventing the issue, and cutting it off at the head, so to speak.
I agree that we as football supporters want to see and end to this, let me assure you, that even I being an Essendon supporter want to see an end to this matter, favourable or not. One thing is certain, two wrongs don't make a right. I agree whole-heartedly that Essendon had significant governance issues, and we have been penalised accordingly. However, let's not forget that ASADA is an independent body set up to deal with such matters, unfortunately they have only shown themselves to be nothing short of a rabble, if not merely incompetent and inefficient. A proper organisation would not simply dismiss queries as to the legality of an investigation, they would hold them up to the light and ensure that their investigation was legal at all times. That is their prime, if not sole, function. The fact that this circus has continued on for so long is purely due to their inability to function efficiently and adhere to a confined set of laws.
Not that I am aware of.Yeeah, shoulda recanted that earlier
Anyone ask for interim orders?
Middleton allowing an extra 24 hours for factual findings.
Nothing on the court site yet. Documents filed or orders etc.
So guessing not, or that that we've been updated on.
Care to elaborate? I'm quite certain in the factual correctness of my statement? Cheers.
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Nope.
The testimonies support the paper trail and the evidence given by those that sourced and compounded the drugs
So you haven't read nearly enough
Fair call. Very fair. I am an Essendon supporter, so perhaps holding on to any mechanism to free us from this utterly debauched scenario. With that said, the law is the law, and should ASADA lawfully have half our team suspended, then so be it, if it is done lawfully and provides for an opportunity for an appropriate defence to be mounted. I will stick to my "two wrongs don't make a right" statement in that, even IF a substance was taken then you would expect that the investigation into such would strenuously conducted in a lawful fashion, and if not... I mean seriously, ASADA's primary function and sole existence is to conduct such investigations, in a timely manner, if they can't do it lawfully, then I would suggest an entire restaffing of that body. I agree that Essendon threw the first punch by having such significant governance issues which led them to being in this situation, but they should at least be afforded honest, lawful and due process. Should that end terribly for us, then so be it.
My understanding is that ASADA clearly led the interviews, without doubt. However, as they did not legally hold coercive powers to compel any players or staff to attend, the AFL organised the said interviews on behalf of ASADA, who then most definitely led the line of questioning within the sessions.
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Suggested by whom?
Counsel for ASADA has stated on more than one occasion that if the SC are quashed they will be immediately reissued.
Might you be possibly falling victim to wishful thinking?
They could reissue them.
Middleton still has not made a ruling on relief for the SCN. He may just let them go (which he seems to be leaning towards) or he may 'show them out and make it so they can't just reacquire the information from the AFL. Rather a new set of interviews.
Depends a lot on Middleton.
Again, it really does depend on all relevant circumstances and factors, such as whether the evidence obtained unlawfully was so grossly unconscionable that it should not be admitted, and the extent to which it will unfairly prejudice the outcome. If the breach(es) are relatively minor, I could almost guarantee all evidence will be admitted. If the evidence is so damning that it should not be excluded in order to preserve the course of justice, it may also be admitted.
I've read numerous blogs by authors who appear be lawyers and/or have great legal expertise. And they don't feel Essendon's arguments are all that strong/logical.
If the judge ruled that the player and support staff testimony needed to be excluded and that players would have to be re-interviewed and offered the appropriate rights without prejudice (I believe Middleton was alluding to this in one exchange with ASADA's guy), would any non-Essendon supporter be upset?
This seems to be the most logical and fair remedy. Whether it is a feasible remedy is probably another question, but I'm not really interested in that.
Would you think it is a just outcome?
This seems to be the most logical and fair remedy. Whether it is a feasible remedy is probably another question, but I'm not really interested in that.
Would you think it is a just outcome?
I believe that was suggested by Middleton, it wasn't a decision, rather a musing.
It would be fine.
the thing is though - that ASADA would ask the AFL to interview the players - who then would not have the oppurtunity to not answer questions, and then ASADA would request the transcripts.
So even if these interviews are tossed ... ASADA is going to get the same answers. They must - if the players answered truthfully (and I have not seen anything to suggest they did not) then the answers will still be the same.
So realistically ... even IF this evidence gets disallowed - it acheives nothing. The same evidence will be re-gathered very easily, and the notices re-issued.
Players would definitely play the I can't recall card on thymosin/thymomodulin and evidence that was unlawfully obtained could not be used to enforce the truthfulness or otherwise of their testimony I would have thought.
I was obviously and specifically referring to the Federal Court matter. In regards to any possible doping, I eagerly await a fair and just process to have charges laid, evidence produced and the matter judged upon by an independent arbiter, regardless of the outcome.. I will accept any such outcome should this process occur. I am really staggered that nearly two seasons have passed with this hanging over Essendon's head, and the game of football in general. Not justifying or excusing Essendon of anything at all, but this matter has truly been grossly mismanaged by ASADA to the nth degree.
from what's been written, I understand that the players claimed not to know what they were given, yet SCN's were issued regardless. Perhaps the player interviews are of more significance in relation to athlete support personal than to the players case in its self.
You've lost me...
Sorry you might be a victim of me dealing with some Essendon supporters not really interested in talking just diverting. I am talking about a specific section of Hird's Court Documents. Not arguing about ASADA setting up with the AFL. However read the sub points of section 52 of Essendon's and Hird's Court documents. That suggest to me that although requested and laid out by ASADA; the interviews were set up, run and conducted by the AFL.
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