Play Nice Random Chat Thread V

[AnEmptyChair]

There's also the reality that those who were say, advocating for slavery to abolished were considered the wokesters of their day, those who were agitating for women to get the vote were seen as disruptive woke activists etc etc.

This kinda thing was something I always wondered about with the whole identity politics stuff. Like I think I might be wrong, but if you take the definition of it -- advocating for policy and institutional change based on identity and organising around a group identity -- then aren't things like universal suffrage, civil rights etc by their very nature identity politics? Hell, you could even argue that for hundreds of years people have rallied around various identities, whether it's class or social group or whatever, to demand rights and privileges for people within that group.

 

[DrZaius]

In saying that, I was not sure what Gillette's strategy was with some of their past ads, by ragging on 50+% of their customer base, but I am not a marketer, so what would I know. All I know is they soon changed tack shortly afterwards.

I'd chalk that one up to sheer human stupidity from their marketing team, mixed in with the tick of approval from out of touch apathetic corporate types.

So really just stupidity all around.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Wow, so he turned out to be a maggot also.

Amazing.

 

[Val Keating]

Wow, so he turned out to be a maggot also.

Amazing.

Was there ever any doubt?

 

[Snake_Baker]

Was there ever any doubt?

Not amongst the sane.

 

[Del191229]

Therefore, they go over the top, oppose meaningful reform and attack things that they shouldn’t, instead of clearly articulating their opposition to specific theoretical and political ideas that should belong to history alone.

I know what you mean, but given capitalism died in 2008 and is only being kept afloat in a zombie form by endless made up printed dollars I'd say Marxism (economic version) has never been more valuable.

And if we're discussing world views that have killed millions that belong in the dustbin of history, I'd note our Prime Minister believes God speaks directly to him and habitually references Old Testament prophets like Isiaih.

Which concerns me a hell of a lot more than BLM protests, given he actually holds genuine power.

 

[Del191229]

This kinda thing was something I always wondered about with the whole identity politics stuff. Like I think I might be wrong, but if you take the definition of it -- advocating for policy and institutional change based on identity and organising around a group identity -- then aren't things like universal suffrage, civil rights etc by their very nature identity politics? Hell, you could even argue that for hundreds of years people have rallied around various identities, whether it's class or social group or whatever, to demand rights and privileges for people within that group.

Scott Morrison is identity politics only.

It is just that his chosen brand of identity politics - blokey white guy who likes a beer and the footy (and entirely made up image) - resonates with plenty on this thread (nor surprising given it is a footy forum lol) so is defined as "normal" and this not identity politics.

 

[Del191229]

Was there ever any doubt?

No.

It is almost like the US is by definition an imperialist racist state where it fundamentally doesn't matter who is in power.

Which is what the wokesters from BLM have been saying for a while now lol.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

I know what you mean, but given capitalism died in 2008 and is only being kept afloat in a zombie form by endless made up printed dollars I'd say Marxism (economic version) has never been more valuable.

And if we're discussing world views that have killed millions that belong in the dustbin of history, I'd note our Prime Minister believes God speaks directly to him and habitually references Old Testament prophets like Isiaih.

Which concerns me a hell of a lot more than BLM protests, given he actually holds genuine power.

A strengthening of social democracy, sure, but we still need to generate appropriate growth through fair and free markets, but this is probably the fifth time this has been discussed. I think the fair part is what died prior to 2009, but it can be resurrected.

As I said, shitcan all bad ideas that belong to history alone. Evangelists are a weird bunch at the best of times and this is coming from an evolutionary theist that grew up in a seven day Adventist school. In saying that, the recent article posted here a few days back saying that despite his weird ultra-Christian views, it has not been translated into policy, and I doubt it ever will besides a few extra freedoms or exemptions. I would argue that Abbott was even worse on that front. Christianity is a dying background force in contemporary Australia (to a lesser extent US) politics, so any changes won’t last.

 

[Del191229]

Christianity is a dying background force in contemporary western politics, so any changes won’t last.

Ooooh dispute that, it is hugely influential in the US. (Agree outside the US for sure)

The state of Israel basically relies on it for its security policy.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

Ooooh dispute that, it is hugely influential in the US. (Agree outside the US for sure)

The state of Israel basically relies on it for its security policy.

We do jump interchangeably between countries. Definitely in the USA as you said, but even then, people just don’t go to church like they used to. We could probably lump Lebanon and Syria in too with the Maronite and Christian militias.

 

[ferball]

I know what you mean, but given capitalism died in 2008 and is only being kept afloat in a zombie form by endless made up printed dollars I'd say Marxism (economic version) has never been more valuable.

Isn't that capitalism anyway. Governments have always printed money. The rest of modern economics is bullshit made up to justify Thatherism.

 

[koshari]

Isn't that capitalism anyway. Governments have always printed money. The rest of modern economics is bullshit made up to justify Thatherism.

The whole legal and financial fraternities have become a massive burden on society. All the people in these "industries" are sponging a living of the working people.

 

[Themanbun]

I know what you mean, but given capitalism died in 2008 and is only being kept afloat in a zombie form by endless made up printed dollars I'd say Marxism (economic version) has never been more valuable.

IMO this is what lay behind the anti-China info war at the moment. While not strictly Marxist they have a different economic and development framework and its success is a hard piece of evidence that you can do things a different way.

 

[koshari]

IMO this is what lay behind the anti-China info war at the moment. While not strictly Marxist they have a different economic and development framework and its success is a hard piece of evidence that you can do things a different way.

China of today is a pretty interesting political cat. Despite being run by the CPP it bears absolutely no resemblance of the historical communist model. Its more like a multinational corporation with an absolute monopoly.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

IMO this is what lay behind the anti-China info war at the moment. While not strictly Marxist they have a different economic and development framework and its success is a hard piece of evidence that you can do things a different way.

Well first you need a Great Leap Forward (killing tens of millions through famine and 'extra' labour), near-complete agricultural collectivization, ban private farming and reprogram the population to accept these changes through struggle sessions and threats of forced labour. Next step is to develop an export market that uses child labour and uses minorities as forced slave labour. Next, you must constantly ignore the high levels of state interference and corruption and the rights of workers trampled with no independent unions and the government cracking down on protesting workers. Then you can throw in all the other stuff, like the political repression, media repression, restrictions of certain freedoms, genocide, social credit scoring, etc. Then you can have that type of 'utopia' in Australia...

There are certainly things worth looking at from an economic standpoint when it comes to China and its successes, but lets not pretend it is a socialist utopia.

 

[Themanbun]

Next step is to develop an export market that uses child labour and uses minorities as forced slave labour. Next, you must constantly ignore the high levels of state interference and corruption, workers rights are poor with no independent unions with only state-owned unions and government's cracking down on protesting works. Then you can throw all the other stuff, like the political repression, media repression, restrictions of certain freedoms, genocide, social credit scoring, etc. Then you can have that in Australia...

This is part of the information war I guess. The Western world's modern economy was built on child labour, and well, we can't really throw stones about genocide and slavery in our history of economic development. I mean our much beloved farmers to this day still strongarm the government into importing Pacific islanders who they indenture here and pay $2-5 per hour to. Independent unions? Well it's hard to register a new one these days, and their ability to strike is curtailed to only very very certain approved circumstances. I remember journalists having their doors kicked in over reporting war crimes, our workers rights are better on paper but power dynamics often mean something entirely different, we are reversing our progress there in many ways while they're continuing.

None of (well most of) that stuff that you mentioned is okay. However part of my point I guess when I refer to the information war is kind of illustrated here. Basically the stones we throw at them they can throw back at us, and we're completely oblivious to our own history and goings on..

When it happens in our own backyards all the time it's an anomaly, not representative of us, etc. When it happens abroad in another part of the world it's representative of the utter failure of their system. The world isn't so black and white.

But more particularly what I was referring to was the planned economy model which is currently showing us up big time.

 

[ferball]

IMO this is what lay behind the anti-China info war at the moment. While not strictly Marxist they have a different economic and development framework and its success is a hard piece of evidence that you can do things a different way.

Its a fascist state.

 

[ferball]

Well first you need a Great Leap Forward (killing tens of millions through famine and 'extra' labour), near-complete agricultural collectivization, ban private farming and reprogram the population to accept these changes through struggle sessions and threats of forced labour. Next step is to develop an export market that uses child labour and uses minorities as forced slave labour. Next, you must constantly ignore the high levels of state interference and corruption and the rights of workers trampled with no independent unions and the government cracking down on protesting workers. Then you can throw in all the other stuff, like the political repression, media repression, restrictions of certain freedoms, genocide, social credit scoring, etc. Then you can have that type of 'utopia' in Australia...

There are certainly things worth looking at from an economic standpoint when it comes to China and its successes, but lets not pretend it is a socialist utopia.

We don't often agree about politics...

And look China has lifted amazing numbers of people out of poverty in a very short time but there is a lot to be wary of there.

Its a fascist state. In the sense that it really does blur corporate and state power in the service of nationalism while maintaining an economic elite.

And I'm not letting the West off the hook. A kinder, gentler machine gun hand will still pull the trigger. But China is no example of any way to run a country/empire.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

This is part of the information war I guess. The Western world's modern economy was built on child labour, and well, we can't really throw stones about genocide and slavery in our history of economic development. I mean our much beloved farmers to this day still strongarm the government into importing Pacific islanders who they indenture here and pay $2-5 per hour to.

None of that stuff that you mentioned is okay. However part of my point I guess when I refer to the information war is kind of illustrated here. Basically the stones we throw at them they can throw back at us, and we're completely oblivious to our own history and goings on.

But more particularly what I was referring to was the planned economy model which is currently showing us up big time.

Bugger off with the IW rubbish, it's lazy and, quite frankly, insulting.

Europe and the West's modern economy (post 1800's for Europe and post slavery in the USA) was not principally built on child labour. It was built on a massive urbanisation effort that didn't kill millions of people and resulted in a population explosion and rural workers moving into the cities. Children and, principally, adults formed a large part of the very early industrial revolution. Laws were passed in 1833 and 1842 in England effectively removed young children from most workplaces with compulsory education reducing most child labour to a few scant industries by the 1920s throughout the West. But as Ferball said, the West has had its own past and current problems.

Well we can cast stones all we like as we are not that generation any more. By your logic, we cannot judge any genocide at all because the Australian government of yesteryear committed genocide against the Aboriginals. We are a different generation and have evolved/learned, as have most other nations that have committed genocides in the past. This is why the world has the Hague, war crime tribunals and initiate peacekeeping missions to prevent acts of genocide. It is not a form of moral superiority, more so that the world now knows the horrors of genocide and opposes it.

China does know better from yesteryear as keen learners of its own history and that of the West. Yet they are still committing an active genocide, probably two if you want to chuck in the cultural genocide of Tibet. They do it because they know they can get away with it.

Their economy only works because of that horrible stuff in place supporting it. Take what economy learnings you can, sure, but be wary of its functional supports.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

We don't often agree about politics...

And look China has lifted amazing numbers of people out of poverty in a very short time but there is a lot to be wary of there.

Its a fascist state. In the sense that it really does blur corporate and state power in the service of nationalism while maintaining an economic elite.

And I'm not letting the West off the hook. A kinder, gentler machine gun hand will still pull the trigger. But China is no example of any way to run a country/empire.

I agree about not letting off the West as our discussions about economics and past genocides are any indicator. China's leaders do know better as they have keenly studied western ideas and history, but still chose their heinous actions that we see today. I also agree that it has taken on an almost technocratic fascist approach to economics in several respects and then there are state-planning that is a feature of both fascist and communist economic systems.

 

[Themanbun]

Bugger off with the IW rubbish, it's lazy and, quite frankly, insulting.

Europe and the West's modern economy was not principally built on child labour. It was built on a massive urbanisation effort that didn't kill millions of people and resulted in a population explosion and rural workers moving into the cities. Children and, principally, adults formed a large part of the very early industrial revolution. Laws were passed in 1833 and 1842 in England effectively removed young children from most workplaces with compulsory education reducing most child labour to a few scant industries by the 1920s throughout the West.

Well we can cast stones all we like as we are not that generation any more. By your logic, we cannot judge any genocide at all because the Australian government of yesteryear committed genocide against the Aboriginals. We are a different generation and have evolved/learned, as have other nations now that fight to stop genocides. This is why the world has the Hague, war crime tribunals and initiate peacekeeping missions to prevent acts of genocide.

China does know better from yesteryear as keen learners of its own history and that of the West. Yet they are still committing an active genocide, probably two if you want to chuck in the cultural genocide of Tibet.

Their economy only works because of that horrible stuff in place supporting it. Take what economy learnings you can, sure, but be wary of its functional supports.

Edit: removed the first part as it was unfair to K4E.

Well into the mid 19th century children past the age of 9 were permitted to work 60 hour weeks in cotton mills - which was a pretty big industry. Child labour, outside of slave and indentured labour in the colonies, was one of the most competitive models for simple manufacturing functions. Anglospheric industrial relations policies still actually bear the mark of child labour in the form of junior rates. The royal commissions and parliamentary debates in Victoria leading into the 1880s make for grim reading and put forward a pretty bleak assessment of England at the time. Famine and neglect killed many all the way into the interwar period. That's a pretty big underselling of late 19th century child employment. And then there's the issue of our mid 20th century economic development being boosted by outsourcing to countries where these laws remained.

"By your logic, we cannot judge any genocide..."


My point was that there would be a Chinese version of you probably sitting on their forums throwing stones at the West when someone makes a point that we can learn from the West's unplanned economies. Bad things are bad things. They are not isolated to China.

We don't need Uyghur genocide and prison camps to learn from the general out performance of their planned economy vis a vis our unplanned ones.

 

[ferball]

This is part of the information war I guess. The Western world's modern economy was built on child labour, and well, we can't really throw stones about genocide and slavery in our history of economic development. I mean our much beloved farmers to this day still strongarm the government into importing Pacific islanders who they indenture here and pay $2-5 per hour to. Independent unions? Well it's hard to register a new one these days, and their ability to strike is curtailed to only very very certain approved circumstances. I remember journalists having their doors kicked in over reporting war crimes, our workers rights are better on paper but power dynamics often mean something entirely different, we are reversing our progress there in many ways while they're continuing.

None of (well most of) that stuff that you mentioned is okay. However part of my point I guess when I refer to the information war is kind of illustrated here. Basically the stones we throw at them they can throw back at us, and we're completely oblivious to our own history and goings on..

When it happens in our own backyards all the time it's an anomaly, not representative of us, etc. When it happens abroad in another part of the world it's representative of the utter failure of their system. The world isn't so black and white.

But more particularly what I was referring to was the planned economy model which is currently showing us up big time.

I agree with alot of what you are saying but China is just ****ed up.

Heaps of corruption, way too much money floating around and no functional limits on power.

 

[DesertRoo]

red army does their best occupy protest, demanding Glazers Fook off..

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

Lose the attitude, you're better than that. You do know that I am a labour historian myself, right? I just don't feel the need to flex on it every time we have a conversation.

Well into the mid 19th century children past the age of 9 were permitted to work 60 hour weeks in cotton mills - which was a pretty big industry. Famine and neglect killed many all the way into the interwar period. That's a pretty big underselling of late 19th century child employment. And then there's the issue of our mid 20th century economic development being boosted by outsourcing to countries where these laws remained.

"By your logic, we cannot judge any genocide..."

Not what I said. You were the one stating that those factors weren't present in Australian or western economic development. Our economic development was built on this ****. Patently false.

My point was that there would be a Chinese version of you probably sitting on their forums throwing stones at the West when someone makes a point that we can learn from the West's unplanned economies. Bad things are bad things. They are not isolated to China.

A bit rich with the attitude call, considering you were the one that effectively called me an IW stooge. That is quite insulting to call someone.

That's all well and good with cotton and a few other industries, but CL effectively decreased by the early 20th century as you know. I'll leave the death rates, as we all know they are a source of debate with linkages to concurrent TB death rates during the 18th-19th centuries.

Well, that was effectively the logic you stated when you commented on casting stones. We are allowed to judge other policies and genocides when accounting for our own biases and acknowledging these biases in the framework used to judge others, including Australia's own genocide. If we were not allowed to cast stones due to past genocides, then many countries would be in trouble considering their histories.

No, I said CL was not the principal driving factor behind the West's industrialization, not that it was not a factor at all. Nor am I ignorant of a whole heap of 'less-than savory' labour laws and practices, some of which continue today in the west. Again, not news to you.

Many of the factors I listed about China are more relevant to the impact of state planning, while some were mutual, if not in impact.

Probably not, because they lack the freedom to openly criticize their own government, but I take your point, even if I don't entirely agree.