Ray is a disapointment "so far"

[FrediKanoute]

So what was the purpose of this post. Are you disappointed in Griffen at the moment?

I think what Acker was getting at is whether or not we should have used pick 4 last year on Ray.......its a fair question in light of how a guy like Bradley is currently going.

Personally I think Ray will be fine and come round 22 he will be in our best 22. He has heaps of time on his hands.

 

[amnesiac]

it is still too early to be rating ray. i think many are quick to subconciously compare him to cooney.

none of our young grop are superstars yet. all of them are developing and all have a long way to go. this is a good thing. we are still working towards a premiership team. we have seen such positive signs from youngsters this year, and who knows perhaps next season we might have a top four side, perhaps the season after, or the season after that. all i know is that it will happen eventually.

ray's body, as mentioned a number of times in this thread, is that of a boy still. bobby murphy took a long time to develop a body capable of afl football, jordy mcmahon as well. whilst they are still skinny, their bodies are now of afl standard and can play out a game without getting polaxed by opposition. ray will take time to. he isnt getting a game, or at least a full game at the moment, because his frame is too small and he needs time to develop. we also have no real need to rush him with our team at the moment, look how well the other youngsters are doing.

ray will be a player, that is known, how good is up to him. at the very worst we will get something back from his drafting. this is not an attack on the people who have questioned him, rather a "lets wait and see", because it is far too early to be judging him. wait till the end of next year before we start doing that.

 

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Just remember allthough I know he has nowhere near the body that in our last premiership our then boom recruit Ted Whitten who started playing for us in 1951 which would have been the equivelant to being drafted in 1950, was playing in a premiership for us in 1954.
All I'm trying to ellude to is that the clock is ticking.

You're right that Whitten had more impact in his first 4 years than Ray, but I think you have to really consider the evolution of the game since then, when even trying to compare the relative development of players from different era's.
Heck, even the evolution of the game IMO within the last 15 years alone has surpassed the cumulative evolution of the game over the preceeding 100 years. Kind of like a football "future Shock" the rate of change of the game is increasing seemingly with every passing year.
The tactical evolution of the game; Gee; In bygone years or even 10 years ago who would've thought that uncontested marks would be a recorded stat-let alone a positive stat for a player to earnn. Coaches of the bygone era's would've seen too many uncontested marks as a sign of poor marking, as opposed to being reflective of certain game tactics being employed.

The body size of players is amazing. do you remember even 20 years ago players such as Micky Conlan & Doug Barwick (to name two who spring to mind) seemingly stuck out of the crowd insofar as their bodysize and shape was very different to the majority of other players. I'd say they wouldn't stick out for their body size much nowadays.

The pace of the game is so much quicker than in prior years too.
I'm not saying any of these are positive or bad by the way, just observing it.
But just these few points here, demonstrate why IMO you can't use say Teddy Whitten's rise at an early age, as a barometer for Farren's development to date.
The changing demands on players bodies as a result of the evolution of the sport require coaches and staff to find alternative approaches to developing players.
I think the prevelance of certain injuries osteitis pubis as one example, is evidence of the Future Shock occurring. And I think Farren Ray's handling too date is one example of the Coaches response to some of these changes in demands on players bodies.
Definitely 30 years ago someone of the size of Farren would've been thrown into the action early on, and he probably could've had the same relative impact of say Cooney or Griffen, (maybe even Teddy Whitten )because of the difference in play, bodysize,tactics and development of the era.
Today it requires a different approach. Guys like Cooney and Griffen are advantaged due to their obvious body size advantages under today's style of game, and thus may to some be seemingly more valuable than Farren...in the short term.
However, as guys like Ray, Wight, Walsh, Tiller, Wells et al are nurtured along (barring other factors coming into play) and their body size development reaches a point where it is not a liablity (to the player or the team) whose to say we won't consider their value relative to that of say a Whitten once it's all over and done??

 

[magic51]

Scott clayton was on sen this afternoon and he basically said that he drafts player that will be better when there body suits their style of play. what he meant was that he does not draft players that are able to play the game straight away.He would rather pick a light body player that will be better then the big bodied player once their body develops. this has proven to be the case with the group of 99 and i think it will be the case with ray

 

[OldSchool]

Scott clayton was on sen this afternoon and he basically said that he drafts player that will be better when there body suits their style of play. what he meant was that he does not draft players that are able to play the game straight away.He would rather pick a light body player that will be better then the big bodied player once their body develops. this has proven to be the case with the group of 99 and i think it will be the case with ray

He is a strong advocate for it isn't he?

 

[stefoid]

I reckon ray could be playing FP for us right at the moment. he has the right mix of skills to be one of those scary live wire goal sneaks like a milne or aron davies.

however, unlike those two, he also has the potential to be a top flight goal kicking midfielder, but he has to learn more about that role, so he is being allowed to develop at weribee.

its not like we have a shotrage of lightly framed running midfielders just at the moment, so calm down!

as for bradley, ok, he gets 20 possies a game, but what role is he playing? jason cloke used to get 20 possies a game being malthosues loose man down back too....

 

[acker]

Scott clayton was on sen this afternoon and he basically said that he drafts player that will be better when there body suits their style of play. what he meant was that he does not draft players that are able to play the game straight away.He would rather pick a light body player that will be better then the big bodied player once their body develops. this has proven to be the case with the group of 99 and i think it will be the case with ray

?? Would Rodney Eade have picked him up with pick 4 ??

 

[Borgsta]

?? Would Rodney Eade have picked him up with pick 4 ??

if Scott Clayton told him to, he would have.

Still are you disappointed with Griffen so far?

 

[acker]

if Scott Clayton told him to, he would have.

Still are you disappointed with Griffen so far?

Have'nt been disapointed Griffen:

I notice your running a sack Frank Farina plug next to your name, whats he done wrong, why sack him he has to coach a team of dreg's and drongo's like Harry Kewel, and try to turn the over-ego'd rabble into something that resembles a cohesive soccer team.

 

[Borgsta]

Have'nt been disapointed Griffen:

I notice your running a sack Frank Farina plug next to your name, whats he done wrong, why sack him he has to coach a team of dreg's and drongo's like Harry Kewel, and try to turn the over-ego'd rabble into something that resembles a cohesive soccer team.

Why not Franklin has done more than him 'so far'.

Do you really want me to answer the 2nd question as it could well be an essay.

 

[acker]

Why not Franklin has done more than him 'so far'.

Do you really want me to answer the 2nd question as it could well be an essay.

Might be better starting a new thread, your not that SBS commentator who had the altercation in tunnel with Frank at half time are you Borgsta ?

Griffen's traveling nicely, just like I expected him to

 

[Borgsta]

Might be better starting a new thread, your not that SBS commentator who had the altercation in tunnel with Frank at half time are you Borgsta ?

Griffen's traveling nicely, just like I expected him to

No im not but that is reason 1 of about 7 as to why he should be sacked. The main one would be that he is absolutely clueless on tactics.

 

[Gooka]

No im not but that is reason 1 of about 7 as to why he should be sacked. The main one would be that he is absolutely clueless on tactics.

Nah, I'd disagree, I think Ray is great with tactics and will make a great coach in 20 or so years...

this thread's about Ray right?

 

[Borgsta]

Nah, I'd disagree, I think Ray is great with tactics and will make a great coach in 20 or so years...

this thread's about Ray right?

Did you read the previous 2 posts or was that an attempt at humour?

 

[Gooka]

Did you read the previous 2 posts or was that an attempt at humour?

 

[alwaysadog]

Ray is into his 2nd season as a player and is far from the 'disappointment' that Acker seems to think. We all know that he came to us as a long term prospect and that he needed a few seasons to physically develop before we would see the type of player he can be.
He didn't come to us as a ready-made player so for anyone to be labelling him a disappointment already without stating why he is deficient as a player obviously will provoke some strong responses.
Rather than comparing him to others now shouldn't Acker be stating why he thinks he is deficient? It's very easy to use the power of hindsight in a comparision but really Ray should be judged on how he shapes up in 2006 not now.


We are all too quick to simply write players off.

Extremely well said. The only point worth adding is that the senior midfield group had lifted and so spots are hard to find. Grif is getting blooded, but the coaching staff were happy with Ray 2 weeks ago and felt he was on track to be part of a new dynamic midfield of Grif, Coon and Ray from 2006 on. I know there were some who questioned his selection but the club definitely beleives they are on a winner with this lad. Patience is a virtue but also a pain.

 

[acker]

We picked him (4) ahead of Kane Tenace (7) and Raphael Clarke (8). In hindsight I am starting to think we picked the wrong player and should have went with one of them or Kepler Bradley (6).
With the exeption of Cooney, we have had a pretty ordinary run with our higher draft picks since we picked up Nathan Brown in 1996 and Robbie Murphy in 1999.
1997........Mark Alvey.....Traded and struggling to get a game with Essendon now
1998........Luke Penny.....Waste of space
1999........Robert Murphy.....Great pick
2000........Jordan McMahon.....Took ages to come on but looks OK now
2001........Sam Power.....Still just looks like he is a plodder
2002........Tim Walsh.....Probably on his last chance, I have my doubts about him
2003........Adam Cooney.....Rare diamond amongst a pile of rough rocks (Farren Ray (4).....Wants to pull his finger out or he will join Alvey )
2004........Ryan Griffen.....Miles ahead of Farren Ray at the moment

3½ years later surprise surprise

 

[_Interpol_]

Good call..

Both players mentioned are ahead of ray, even rapha is working it out

Shoudl get something for him though

 

[Ruiner]

3½ years later surprise surprise

Looks alright until you read the part about how we'd have been better off with Tenace, Clarke or Bradley, one of whom is about to end up delisted or traded for bugger all, the next is the scapegoat of his team everytime they lose and the other got delisted and picked up by Freo. Just shows what an ordinary draft it was and how lucky we were that we had first shot at Cooney. Ray's career could still surpass any of those three, if it hasn't already.

 

[stefoid]

3½ years later surprise surprise

To be fair, you wanted Tenace, Clarke or Bradley, any of which would be struggling to get into our 22 and would be a fair candidate for being traded about now.

Lets face it, in 20-20 hindsight it was a poor draft and thank the stars (and Peter Rhode) - it was a fantastic draft to have pick #1 in.

or since we are back-patting, how about my quote:

"both mclean and bradley may turn out to be fairly uninspiring one-trick ponies. sylvia may find out that he cant pick on the big kids as well as he picked on the little ones."

 

[Ruiner]

Good call..

Both players mentioned are ahead of ray, even rapha is working it out

Shoudl get something for him though

In what way is Tenace ahead of Ray? He played basically no senior football this year and would be in line to be delisted. Clarke's no golden boy either. A couple of reasonable games toward the end of the season hardly puts him back on track.

 

[Dog 36]

My only concern with Farren Ray is that his kicking skills have not improved one bit since he came to the Dogs.

So its either the club has not addressed the issue and does not have a program to get kicking skills of players improved OR the more likely scenario IMO is that you cant teach players at this stage of their football lives to kick well yes they can improve but not by an amount that players like Farren require, you either have it or you dont.

Farrens run, carry, work ethic and application I dont question but his kicking skills are below par.

So with a player like Farren unless you bring something unique to the team such as a Cross etc you will struggle to find a regular place in the side. Callum Ward has the same qualities as Farren with better disposal.

 

[acker]

Could be Freo's dream combination

Kepler Bradley and Farren Ray

 

[Ant_]

Could be Freo's dream combination

Kepler Bradley and Farren Ray

Ahh imagine the username.

Farren2Kepler

 

[peejay]

We picked him (4) ahead of Kane Tenace (7) and Raphael Clarke (8). In hindsight I am starting to think we picked the wrong player and should have went with one of them or Kepler Bradley (6).
With the exeption of Cooney, we have had a pretty ordinary run with our higher draft picks since we picked up Nathan Brown in 1996 and Robbie Murphy in 1999.
1997........Mark Alvey.....Traded and struggling to get a game with Essendon now
1998........Luke Penny.....Waste of space
1999........Robert Murphy.....Great pick
2000........Jordan McMahon.....Took ages to come on but looks OK now
2001........Sam Power.....Still just looks like he is a plodder
2002........Tim Walsh.....Probably on his last chance, I have my doubts about him
2003........Adam Cooney.....Rare diamond amongst a pile of rough rocks (Farren Ray (4).....Wants to pull his finger out or he will join Alvey )
2004........Ryan Griffen.....Miles ahead of Farren Ray at the moment

Good call.

To be fair it can be a lottery - we got Shane Tuck at 73 in the same draft as farren - go figure.