Preview Rd 5 - Brisbane Lions v Melbourne

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I am a MASSIVE Patty K fan. I love his cleverness and his ability to move through traffic, he is arguably my favourite player for the Lions. I was having 'several' beers with a senior Brisbane Lions player in January at a pub in Victoria, and I said "I have to ask this, I find it to be the most frustrating thing about the Brisbane Lions, why doesn't Patty K get regular games"?. His answer was straight forward, and it was that (roughly of coarse) - '"he finds it difficult to maintain professional 'Attitude and effort' week in week out and can sometimes be Lazy with preparation etc". He also said whilst he had talent, he thought Voss hadn't been unfair on him in demanding those high standeds before playing him every week. Seems Post NAB Cup he might fallen into some bad habits again that plagued his selections chances last year, that is the only explanation that can make any sense as to why is is being left out of the side. Its sad becuase we will lose him at the end of the year and he will go on to be a 200 game player elsewhere in Melbourne.

I know people ridicule the 'I was talking too so and so" posts, I don't expect all to believe me, but I spoke directly about Patty K to a senior lions player for about 20 minutes and this was his explanation.
 
Also suggests that Karnezis runs to the right spots, and knows how to spread. We are missing these 'linkmen'; and given our lack of targets up forward, these 'linkmen' become even more valuable...

He does this quite well it's true. Only problem is he doesn't run hard the other way to cover our opponents run either which is an area we've struggled with hugely IMO this year as a collective group.

Lester certainly is better in this respect. I also rate Lester's ball use and decision making quite highly.

In saying that I'm a big fan of both PK and RL and see them as key components of our midfield moving forward so would and would really like to see them both getting games under the belt.
 

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I'm not sure what to make of that post Luke, but it could be the only explanation for Karnezis not getting selected. It certainly raises some eyebrows when a player doesn't prepare accordingly and doesn't put in hard yards at training. Still a bit surprised though that a senior Lions player would candidly say that much. But oh well, as close to an explanation as we can get really.

I rate Lester quite highly, and he deserves to be starting 22.
 
Wasn't intending to open the door on old #4 3KZ. More just making the point that what we think we see and what is reality don't always correlate. eg it took me probably half of Browny's career to realise what a great field kick he is. I had him as "good...for a key forward" but he was probably closer to elite at his best.

;) I understand that POBT.
Moving forward, I actually thought the back half of my post was more relevant and quotable though.
 
Selection involves more than what we see on the weekend: how they trained during the week, how the team is being structured and whether they followed their instructions during the last game. The way some people seem to view team selection is weighing up how a guy played in the reserves versus how a guy played in the seniors and seeing which was better.

Related to this thinking seems to be the suggestion that the coach doesn't want to pick the players that are best able to win the game and instead he would prefer to pick his "favourites". Never really understood that theory as I would have thought coaches would prefer winning games to hanging out with their favs on gameday.

You can question the reasoning behind team selections but the "it's *obvious* [playername] should be in the side, what is [coach] thinking!" style of discussion is tiresome and off-base.
 
Voss surely must shake things up this week...The mid field needs a over haul...Rockliff, Rich, and Redden are slow damm lazy this season and shouldnt be taking 3 midfield roles...Rockliff and Rich should go forward and learn to present to create a option. Redden is woeful, and should be dropped. I would put Green in the middle, and bring back Banfield for some hussle. Get games into Karnezis, and Continue midfield action for Mayes

I think that might be a little harsh on Redden, he's 4th in the competition for tackles, averaging 7.7 a game and half of his possessions are contested, that hardly seems an accurate reflection of someone who is damn lazy.
 
I'd say he is probably our most hard done by player this season. He was given one game, an impossible job which he did admirably, and was then dropped.

Im a big lester fan, BUT feel Harwood could be competeing for hardest done by. BOTH IMO were given match ups in the seniors that was going to be very hard for them to come out on top. Harwood on thomas and lester on jenkins.
 
I think that might be a little harsh on Redden, he's 4th in the competition for tackles, averaging 7.7 a game and half of his possessions are contested, that hardly seems an accurate reflection of someone who is damn lazy.

When ur chasing jumpers all day and are around the packs u would expect high tackles...Reddens offensive game is what I'm referring too. He is falling away there. It will be interesting to see how much he can step up with Rich out of the team. Fingers crossed
 
Selection involves more than what we see on the weekend: how they trained during the week, how the team is being structured and whether they followed their instructions during the last game. The way some people seem to view team selection is weighing up how a guy played in the reserves versus how a guy played in the seniors and seeing which was better.

Related to this thinking seems to be the suggestion that the coach doesn't want to pick the players that are best able to win the game and instead he would prefer to pick his "favourites". Never really understood that theory as I would have thought coaches would prefer winning games to hanging out with their favs on gameday.

You can question the reasoning behind team selections but the "it's *obvious* [playername] should be in the side, what is [coach] thinking!" style of discussion is tiresome and off-base.

I agree with most of that, but I have to say that even with all those considerations I still struggle to understand how it is in our interests to bring players in for one or two games and then drop them, which we seem to do regularly.

And of course it's possible for a coach to overrate a player's contribution to the team.
 
Moving forward, I actually thought the back half of my post was more relevant and quotable though.

It was mate. Problem with forums is that you often quote the bit you disagree with without taking the time to acknowledge the parts that you like.
 
I really hope Zorko gets to play in the middle on the weekend. He has obviously struggled quite a bit this year (he has improved bit by bit over the last few weeks) but I think he is the only one that can come close to alleviating the loss of Rich. People have tossed up Green, Crisp, Karnezis etc to cover for Rich but none of them have the ability to match the offensive damage that Rich can supply over the course of a game like I think Zorko can.

On the Karnezis kicking debate; I see him as a very solid kick who, with time and space, will consistently hit a target anywhere from 20 - 45m. His kicking is a bit loopy and isn't bullet-like or even overly damaging, but, unless under considerable pressure I would back him to hit a target the majority of the time.
 

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Ex cat shannon byrnes I think kicked 3 goals next week, has yeo got the pace to go with him, if not what other options do we have.
With Rich out you would think rockcliff will get a lot more attention be interetsing to see how he handles it.
 
Selection involves more than what we see on the weekend: how they trained during the week, how the team is being structured and whether they followed their instructions during the last game. The way some people seem to view team selection is weighing up how a guy played in the reserves versus how a guy played in the seniors and seeing which was better.

Related to this thinking seems to be the suggestion that the coach doesn't want to pick the players that are best able to win the game and instead he would prefer to pick his "favourites". Never really understood that theory as I would have thought coaches would prefer winning games to hanging out with their favs on gameday.

You can question the reasoning behind team selections but the "it's *obvious* [playername] should be in the side, what is [coach] thinking!" style of discussion is tiresome and off-base.

Congratulations, you've won Jorgo's inaugural...

post+of+the+week.png
 
I'm not sure what to make of that post Luke, but it could be the only explanation for Karnezis not getting selected. It certainly raises some eyebrows when a player doesn't prepare accordingly and doesn't put in hard yards at training. Still a bit surprised though that a senior Lions player would candidly say that much. But oh well, as close to an explanation as we can get really.

I rate Lester quite highly, and he deserves to be starting 22.

He wasn't so much Candid, he actually spoke very sincerely about the Patty issue because he could see my frutration - he akowledged from the outside it was seem very confusing. He shouted me beers and was happy to talk Lions all night. I was surprised myself. Might have got a little bit sick of my drunken "fan boy-ness" by the end of the night though. I dont think its a very ground breaking insight anyway, its pretty much what I had grown to assume about Patty, it just confirmed it for me.
 
When ur chasing jumpers all day and are around the packs u would expect high tackles...Reddens offensive game is what I'm referring too. He is falling away there. It will be interesting to see how much he can step up with Rich out of the team. Fingers crossed

Fair enough, i've watched Redden pretty closely this year and I think the one thing he doesn't lack is effort. He is constantly trying to win the hard ball and time and time again I see him throwing himself around the pack or wherever the ball is contested. Ideally, like yourself, i'd like to see more attack from Jack but i'd expect him to be a bit out on his feet with the intensity that I reckon he is playing with and would be much happier to see the benefactors of his hard ball doing more going forward and in their hunt of the loose ball.

All that being said, let's hope that with blacky floating around earning the hard ball maybe he'll be freed up for a bit of run and carry.
 
I think that might be a little harsh on Redden, he's 4th in the competition for tackles, averaging 7.7 a game and half of his possessions are contested, that hardly seems an accurate reflection of someone who is damn lazy.
From what I saw at the weekeend against North Melbourne, this stat doesn't surprise me, because he was second to the ball on far too many occasions. His stat count for that game also included a lot of soft touches when the Lions were chipping it around rather than playing direct football. Simply put, Redden needs to lift. He needs to get first hands on the pill and generate drive out of the midfield and at the stop plays.
 
I agree with most of that, but I have to say that even with all those considerations I still struggle to understand how it is in our interests to bring players in for one or two games and then drop them, which we seem to do regularly.

And of course it's possible for a coach to overrate a player's contribution to the team.

I agree. I guess I wasn't talking about the correctness of our team selections per se, more about how there can be a constructive discussion on the topic (like your post) rather than the "Vossy has no idea" style posts.

It's hard to know about the one/two game thing. Maybe players need to perform certain roles/duties during the game as a minimum and if they struggle with those basics they are set back to the twos? But of course, I'm just guessing.
 
Dane Swan has been a awful trainer his whole career...

Was also in and out of the side for the first few years of his careeer. 0, 3, 13, 14 games in his first 4 years at Collingwood. From what I understand he worked hard to build a midfield engine which was the transformative move, given he was effectively a small forward to that point.

It is a good comparison to Karnezis but I think that you can't simply gift games to guys who aren't working hard enough. Not saying that is the case with Karnezis as I am only relying on earlier posts but Swan is evidence that you need to work hard, no matter your talent level. Stevie J is another one who had to have an attitude adjustment before he became a regular.
 
Dane Swan has been a awful trainer his whole career...

Was also in and out of the side for the first few years of his careeer. 0, 3, 13, 14 games in his first 4 years at Collingwood. From what I understand he worked hard to build a midfield engine which was the transformative move, given he was effectively a small forward to that point.

It is a good comparison to Karnezis but I think that you can't simply gift games to guys who aren't working hard enough. Not saying that is the case with Karnezis as I am only relying on earlier posts but Swan is evidence that you need to work hard, no matter your talent level. Stevie J is another one who had to have an attitude adjustment before he became a regular.
 
It's hard to know about the one/two game thing. Maybe players need to perform certain roles/duties during the game as a minimum and if they struggle with those basics they are set back to the twos? But of course, I'm just guessing.

If it continues to happen I'll start a thread on this in the next week or two. It's pretty much dominating my thinking about selections at the moment.
 
From what I saw at the weekeend against North Melbourne, this stat doesn't surprise me, because he was second to the ball on far too many occasions. His stat count for that game also included a lot of soft touches when the Lions were chipping it around rather than playing direct football. Simply put, Redden needs to lift. He needs to get first hands on the pill and generate drive out of the midfield and at the stop plays.

Maybe you're right 3KZ, I couldn't see too many positives from most in the Norf game. However IMHO I think his effort, for the most part of the season thus far has been right up there, perhaps the Norf game being the exception, though I thought he did well.

I'm not completely blameless here either, I sat on the couch with my young fella without my guernsey on for the first 5 minutes or so of the game, completely foregoing household tradition, I may have set the tone for the day and for that, I'm sorry....
 
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