Reasoning behind choosing Bartel from the start - please enlighten me

[94_Eagles]

I didn't mean to sound like I was implying my strategy was the best, rather was hoping to gain an insight into why others had chosen them. Thanks Kid A.

 

[bloodpumpsRnB]

Guys, how can you be arguing with the 1700th best Dream Team coach in the world???

 

[csmithrd]

I was able to fit any two premium mids into my team structure, so I chose the player I thought would score the most overall points, taking into account durability. I learned last season that you need a strong midfield captain option from the beginning as it is not worth experimenting with captains week in week out. I put a price on a ~110.00 captain average: $500,000.

 

[bigman100kg]

Exactly. Which is why you wait a few rounds to get them. Ablett has a BE of 144 and Bartel's is 132 this week. Its likely they will not get these so you keep waiting until they drop to a price where their break evens are around 100-120 (reasonable to expect they will both get these on a regular basis) and then get on board. Remember how Bartel went sub 400K last year? I certainly did and that's when I hopped on board. No need to have them both from the start is my point, nor am I denying you will need at least one or both to reach the great heights.

you have to start with some good players.........if you had 400 trades then you could start with all the cash cows and build an awsome team but you cant you can only upgrade 6 to 10 players during the year. meaning you have to start with about 14ish players you plan on keeping to the end.

To do fantastically well (even better than 1700th) by the end of the year your midfield will have to look roughly like this Ablett Bartel Cornes Corey Swan Murphy or equivalent. PLease explain how considering you didnt start with at least 4 of them you plan to get them with only 20 trades?

Also why include Pav when you could have got him cheaper now?
You defeated your own argument with that one, reallly your forward line should currently be

skipworth, higgins, krakour, ziebell, garlett, mitch brown etc, according to your flawed arguments

 

[thebaxters]

For me, I went for Bartel because he came into this season without niggles (ribs early last year I believe), so I think he is good to go close to a 115 avg. I recognise that means he will drop ~10% over the first 7-10 Rd's (possibly more with magic number squashing), or 50K if he scores his 08 avg, but compared to the uncertainty of a 400K player (who would drop 40K over the same period), I get greater scoring certainty. I'm also comfortable that by naming an extra rookie somewhere on the field, I can make up 10K over that period. The key reason for me was Capt choice. I sucked last year, avg 103. It's an area I know I suck in, so by picking someone I know will avg more than that, I'm a step ahead.

I went for Ablett this year also, because when he's on, he's on. I can see upside for him this year too.

Choosing these two over Kornes/Cross is different than what I've done previously, but it was done consciously and in an effort to overcome a recognised deficiency. There was also enough depth in mid rookies that I felt comfortable starting them, so I got an automatic upgrade of a "good" player to a premium.

Signing off in a position worse than 1700,
Bax

 

[NT.Thunder]

I got Bartel and for no reason, i just like his name, Jimmmmmy, HeHeHeHe, listen, say it really fast, Jimmmy, Jimmmmy, Jimmmy, oh man i love it, makes me laugh, HeHeHeHe. Jimmmy, aagghhhhh, so cooool!

No reason, just like his name, that's how i pick my team, funny names. Listen, Kanes Cornes, Kane Kornes, HeHeHeHe, i like that 1 to

 

[Lakey91]

To do fantastically well (even better than 1700th) by the end of the year your midfield will have to look roughly like this Ablett Bartel Cornes Corey Swan Murphy or equivalent.

Wrong IMO.

I did some research on this, and the top 5 of last year all had very ontrasting midfields.

Baxters (Came 2nd) for example, had the final mids of:

Bartel (~113 average)
Ablett (~112)
Corey (~109)
Swan (~103)
Kane (~99)
Cross (~96)

So an average score of one of his midfielders was 105.23.

However, this contrasts significantly to the convicts, whos final mids were:

Bartel (~113)
Corey (~109)
Kane (~98)
Cross (~96)
Stanton (~93)
Stevens (~90)

So an average score for one of his midfielders is 98.37.

I know it doesnt look like much of a difference, but essentitally it is swan and ablett against stanton and stevens.

The difference between the two sides, is that convicts would of most likely had his final midfield set earlier than baxters, who had his finalised later due to the fact he needed to make bigger upgrades.

This shows that there is probably two strategies:

Aim high for your midfield, and finalise it later (baxters), or focus on finalising your team ASAP (convicts).

Both have merit as a team who aims higher will be scoring indredibly well in the second half of the year, however a team like convicts will start scoring well (though not as well as baxters), earlier.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Lakey91]

I got Bartel and for no reason, i just like his name, Jimmmmmy, HeHeHeHe, listen, say it really fast, Jimmmy, Jimmmmy, Jimmmy, oh man i love it, makes me laugh, HeHeHeHe. Jimmmy, aagghhhhh, so cooool!

No reason, just like his name, that's how i pick my team, funny names. Listen, Kanes Cornes, Kane Kornes, HeHeHeHe, i like that 1 to

ON the piss already NT????

 

[matt73]

I would have thought the fact that he scores the most points year in year out was a good selling point for some!!

 

[Athomas]

I wanted him as captain when he scored 150+ against the Crows in Round 4. That's why I got him.

 

[footylover18]

I did some research on this, and the top 5 of last year all had very ontrasting midfields.

Baxters (Came 2nd) for example, had the final mids of:

Bartel (~113 average)
Ablett (~112)
Corey (~109)
Swan (~103)
Kane (~99)
Cross (~96)

So an average score of one of his midfielders was 105.23.

However, this contrasts significantly to the convicts, whos final mids were:

Bartel (~113)
Corey (~109)
Kane (~98)
Cross (~96)
Stanton (~93)
Stevens (~90)

So an average score for one of his midfielders is 98.37.

I know it doesnt look like much of a difference, but essentitally it is swan and ablett against stanton and stevens.

When did Convicts bring Stanton in? If he had him from the start then your argument is valid, however if he brought him in during the season like I suspect then what you're saying is a bit flawed. If Convicts brought in Stanton say round 10 last yr then all that matters is what Stanton averaged for Convicts, not what he averaged over the course of the whole season. If we assume that he was brought in after round 9 last yr then Stanton averaged 103 for Convicts, not 93 like you suggested.

Another point is that Baxters traded Stevens out for Corey last yr. Once again looking at the whole season average is a bit misleading. I think Baxters may have done that trade before round 15 last yr. From round 15 onwards Stevens averaged 80.5, over that same period Corey averaged 117.5. A 37 point per game difference. Massive.

 

[blues4flag]

I still think players 450K and over are overpriced, they are not going to average you 130 and that money is better spent upgrading say two good players to bottom priced premiums. Will score you more in the long run.

Same strategy that people use to not pick Cox early in the season. When will people learn?

The security of having a captain choice who you can rely on to average 110ppg is invaluable, as I've learned over the past few years. While I personally wouldn't start both Ablett and Bartel, it was essential I picked one so as to have that captaincy choice from the get go.

 

[Virgil]

When did Convicts bring Stanton in? If he had him from the start then your argument is valid, however if he brought him in during the season like I suspect then what you're saying is a bit flawed. If Convicts brought in Stanton say round 10 last yr then all that matters is what Stanton averaged for Convicts, not what he averaged over the course of the whole season. If we assume that he was brought in after round 9 last yr then Stanton averaged 103 for Convicts, not 93 like you suggested.

Pretty sure he started with Stanton.

 

[Ex President]

I wanted him as captain when he scored 150+ against the Crows in Round 4. That's why I got him.

Exactly ... what did Eagles 94 say his B/E was - 132? Obviously no idea what his past few against the Crows have netted ...

 

[LemmingMaster]

When did Convicts bring Stanton in?

(Did not want to use your whole quote)

Your post is very valid, hence this year I am attempting to research the real gains in my trades.

 

[Beerfish]

Stupid post. 'Draining me of cash'? Yes, he's about 5k-60k more expensive than the other mid premiums such as Swan, Kane, Ablett, Corey, Thompson. Wouldn't exactly call that 'draining me of cash'. I'd call that insurance for a guy who's bound to average 110+. There are only two guys in DT whom you can bank on to do that: Bartel & Ablett. Both cost heaps.

The BE necessary for Bartel to maintain his average is 114 each week, or perhaps slightly higher if you factor in magic number deflation. Considering that Jimbo is currently averaging 113, I'm not sure what you're on about.

Any extra money 'lost' is made back by having a stable solid captain option. My captain is averaging 113 so far. Without either Bartel or Ablett (who was only a few thousand cheaper) you would have to gamble on whom you'd select as your captain. There is no way you would have predicted Gibbs to average 112 for example, and at that lower price range you could have gone right (Gibbs, Swan) or wrong (Pendlebury, Deledio).

I'm not sure if you realise this but every dream team player's listed price is based on their previous year's average * a constant (with very slight variations at the top end and also with occasional reductions based on missed games, and that doesn't apply here).

So the reason Bartel is priced that highly...is because he was that damn good last year.

No one is going to average 130 because a player that could average 130 would be priced at $575,000.

Bartel is capable of averaging 115 which justifies his $500,000 price tag.

Maybe what you're saying is that Bartel isn't going to rise in price very much because it's not likely he'll average 125, whereas some guy like Gibbs could conceivably average 105 while being priced at under 90 average to begin with.

Yes. But no top flight midfielder will reliably rise in price. You don't get them to be cash cows. You get them because as captaincy options and stable premiums they accumulate top points over the season, and you eventually will need Bartel & Ablett in your team to compete with the best midfields. You thus sacrifice a bit of cash cow factor for a saved trade later on - no need to bring Bartel in if you have him from the start.

Your posting in this topic shows both a serious lack of DT knowledge and a wilful repeated disregard of your own ignorance.

Just wanted to highlight these two excellent posts.

Personally, I've gone with a set and forget midfield from the start this year. In hindsight that may prove to be costly tradewise when it comes to upgrading elsewhere considering the number of likely cash cows available in the mids this year, but what the hell I can still rotate the rookies through my bench if needs be.

With some luck though, I may not have to upgrade any of my starting midfield which would be nice for a change.

 

[DTFTW]

I got Bartel and for no reason, i just like his name, Jimmmmmy, HeHeHeHe, listen, say it really fast, Jimmmy, Jimmmmy, Jimmmy, oh man i love it, makes me laugh, HeHeHeHe. Jimmmy, aagghhhhh, so cooool!

No reason, just like his name, that's how i pick my team, funny names. Listen, Kanes Cornes, Kane Kornes, HeHeHeHe, i like that 1 to

im guessing you have dick, goldsack and cox?

 

[Stormer]

umm. Bartel has scored more points than Ablett this season...

 

[Lakey91]

When did Convicts bring Stanton in? If he had him from the start then your argument is valid, however if he brought him in during the season like I suspect then what you're saying is a bit flawed. If Convicts brought in Stanton say round 10 last yr then all that matters is what Stanton averaged for Convicts, not what he averaged over the course of the whole season. If we assume that he was brought in after round 9 last yr then Stanton averaged 103 for Convicts, not 93 like you suggested.

Another point is that Baxters traded Stevens out for Corey last yr. Once again looking at the whole season average is a bit misleading. I think Baxters may have done that trade before round 15 last yr. From round 15 onwards Stevens averaged 80.5, over that same period Corey averaged 117.5. A 37 point per game difference. Massive.

It doesnt matter.

He said you cant come close this year unless you have ABC, swan, kane and someone like gibbs as your final mids. I just disproved that.

I didnt follow their teams during the season so i wouldnt know.

Sorry!

 

[samwise]

how stupid can you be to wonder why people chose him??
if you have played dream team before you will know that you need a 22 round captain. people like cross and kane cornes may be a cheaper buy but they will get you lots of 80s and 90s which brings down your captain average. its very hard to pick when they will score there big ones and when they wont. no one gets it right every week - seen with gibbs already this year.
bartel has averaged the most in the competition and if you have him surely you would put him captain every week like i do and have gotten the 113 captain average.
in regards to choosing him over ablett i felt ablett could miss 1 or 2 games this season and the fact that bartel never gets tagged means you dont have to worry about possibly changing captain if hes playing a team like adelaide with shirley.

bartel + haselby + 100k vs kornes + cross

surely first option is better. haselby + 100k makes up the value you think is lost choosing bartel 500k over others anyway.

and 94_ealges, in regards to who you spent your most money on pavlich, i thought there were just as good options in the forward line for cheaper which there seems to have been.

with your other point,
there are no mid priced mids that can do just a good a job as bartel and swan and ablett are the only high priced mids that can do as good a job as him.

so i find it pretty poor you can barely think of a single reason to include him. especially when you didnt question having ablett when bartel is averaging more.

 

[Dunn - Well Done]

Its an interesting concept that Lakey has brought up here. Whether someone brings in a lesser quality scorer (example: Stanton) earlier or brings in a (example: Bartel) later.

Stanton can be brought in earlier simply because he is cheaper

Bartel can only be brang in later because he is expensive

Lets say Bartel avgs 115 and Stanton avgs 95

They are traded in at different times for a 75 avg player. Stanton can be brang in at round 6 whilst Bartel can only be brang in at round 12.

Therefore Stanton makes a 20 point improvment on avg but for more rounds (16 rounds)

20 x 16 = 320 point increase

Whilst Bartel makes a higher increase of 40 points per game but over 10 rounds.

40 x 10 = 400 points increase

This is quite interesting as if Bartel was brought in at round 14 they would make the same points increase. It is also likely that Bartel would probably cost more money at that time to get rather than Stanton.

Any thoughts on this, very interesting about bringing in a low scorer but much earlier compared to a high scorer but alot later. It could also be very interesting regarding money. Money is an issue this year as people seem to think that if their isnt many downgrade options than they may not make enough money. If they think this than it could be worth getting in cheaper premium type players.

It could be well worth getting in players such as Dalzeill, Stanton, Cooney ect during rounds 5,6,7 instead of waiting for the Ablett, Bartel, Richo, M.Murphy typle players in rounds 10-14.

 

[Darkness Falls]

Exactly. Which is why you wait a few rounds to get them. Ablett has a BE of 144 and Bartel's is 132 this week. Its likely they will not get these so you keep waiting until they drop to a price where their break evens are around 100-120 (reasonable to expect they will both get these on a regular basis) and then get on board. Remember how Bartel went sub 400K last year? I certainly did and that's when I hopped on board. No need to have them both from the start is my point, nor am I denying you will need at least one or both to reach the great heights.

Bartel averages 140 against the crows.

 

[lifelike_]

To put it simply -

Option A - Start with Kane Cornes instead of Bartel.

Cornes is priced at a 98.5 average, x2 as captain every week. Is originally priced at 437,900.

437,900/197 = you're paying $2,222 for every point.

Option B - Start with Bartel instead of Kane Cornes.

Bartel is priced at a 113 average, x2 as captain every week. Is originally priced at 501,800.

501,800/226 = you're paying $2,220 for every point.

So you're actually getting better (albeit very small) value out of Bartel than Cornes.

 

[Dunn - Well Done]

To put it simply -

Option A - Start with Kane Cornes instead of Bartel.

Cornes is priced at a 98.5 average, x2 as captain every week. Is originally priced at 437,900.

437,900/197 = you're paying $2,222 for every point.

Option B - Start with Bartel instead of Kane Cornes.

Bartel is priced at a 113 average, x2 as captain every week. Is originally priced at 501,800.

501,800/226 = you're paying $2,220 for every point.

So you're actually getting better (albeit very small) value out of Bartel than Cornes.

You've got to be kidding me!!

The difference is due to rounding of their price.

Also you need to consider what the player is going to avg in the year coming not the past year. Kornes is undervalued and Bartel is probably undervalued aswell IMO. Kornes is undervalued even more.

In hindsight i think you needed to start with either A or B which ever one it didnt matter. But they get you points and give you a captain option each week of the highest amount of points. When you can times someones score by 2 it is important than to get a player that will score the most. Because your gonna get more points for the value of the player.

 

[lifelike_]

The difference is due to rounding of their price.

Haha whoops.

Didn't think of that.