Preview Rnd 8 - Carlton v North Saturday 25th July 1.05PM @ the Gabba

[Arr0w]

Teague essentially said the game plan getting out of defence was to go long and get it out of bounds and create stoppages on the wing

I understand the tactic, but when you have a clear teammate 20 metres away, without having to switch, possession and safe ball movement would have been a better option. Port used this same tactic, moving the ball 40 odd metres from HB to HF with chip passes along the wing, then were able to pump it long to a contest, 20 metres out

Tactics shouldn't be so ridge

 

[Stamos]

So still going on potential/draft selection as opposed to output at senior level?

I would have

Out Kennedy, Cuner

In Fisher, Jack or LOB

What?
LOB offered more in the second half of last year than Newnes has this year. Cunners has been offering more than Newnes, although he had a poor game on Sunday.

And potential/development needs to count for something. The aim should be premierships. We should be aiming to improve.

 

[HARKER]

How is that cherry picking?
Good kicking on one foot > average kicking on both feet.

By..........a lot.

Being dual-sided may give you the edge at selection table over a similar player, but it's not that important around the ground.
It does though help being dual sided at the point end of the ground, being the forward line.
Nice to have those smalls that can kick it from any angle and on either foot.

 

[Eiffel 65]

Out: Kennedy (didn't have a bad game but we might need a bit more balance in our midfield)
In: Fisher

Newnes to play back pocket.
SPS to play on the wing.
Cuningham to move into the midfield.
Fisher to play half forward (Cuningham's position)

 

[Mondyboy]

Round 7, 2019 - lost by 58 points
Round 4, 2018 - lost by 86 points
Round 10, 2017 - lost by 17 points (big comeback in the 3rd quarter after being down by 7-8 goals)
Round 9, 2016 - lost by 67 points
Round 18, 2015 - lost by 64 points

I was there for all but the 2018 drubbing.

It's about time we show up when we play this mob and give them a hiding!

As you clearly show, when the table has been reversed and we’ve been poo, they have crushed us. And it’s not like they were a great team last year or the year before. If we were the rabble they are and they were playing the footy we’ve been, they would flog us.

So yeah, time for some dismantling.

 

[Arr0w]

How is that cherry picking?
Good kicking on one foot > average kicking on both feet.

Average in who's eyes, the stats sheets?

Doc turned the ball over several times, but his efficiency was in the 80's. But you already know why that is the case

 

[Stamos]

Average in who's eyes, the stats sheets?

Doc turned the ball over several times, but his efficiency was in the 80's. But you already know why that is the case

Doc didn't have a great game.
I don't want him going on his left either.

 

[Arr0w]

What?
LOB offered more in the second half of last year than Newnes has this year. Cunners has been offering more than Newnes, although he had a poor game on Sunday.

And potential/development needs to count for something. The aim should be premierships. We should be aiming to improve.

Cut the whats out stamos, I didn't come down in the last footy shower

Cunners has been poor for the last 2 weeks. Stated many times, unless Teague plays him as a run with up the ground he is not a HF. Newnes could fill the roll better as would Murphy, LOB would then play on a wing

You want to improve the side as well as develop our youth, you make that change

Fisher in for Kennedy

 

[Arr0w]

Doc didn't have a great game.
I don't want him going on his left either.

Wasn't just his left, I can tell you that

 

[Stamos]

Cut the whats out stamos, I didn't come down in the last footy shower

Cunners has been poor for the last 2 weeks. Stated many times, unless Teague plays him as a run with up the ground he is not a HF. Newnes could fill the roll better as would Murphy, LOB would then play on a wing

You want to improve the side as well as develop our youth, you make that change

Fisher in for Kennedy

Cunners wasn't poor against the Dogs.
Played a defensive role. 5 Score involvements, including the brilliant kick immediately before half time. Very few in our team could have made that play.

Newnes does not have Cuningham's weapons.

 

[Mondyboy]

I'll go a bit further and note some issues, with some timestamps for key moments in the first quarter.

Initial thoughts - had an opponent run off him at multiple centre bounce setups (centre of the top of the 50), and in related open play; mostly Byrne-Jones, but sometimes Burton as Byrne-Jones would join the congestion as an extra mid; inability to pressure lead to some very easy scoring chains for Port

11:40 (time-on clock) - flies into Betts' lead for the ball, almost forcing the ball to spill; very obvious lead, but never looked ahead of him before Murphy kicked the ball to see Betts steaming up the field; thankfully bounced straight back up and provided an option for Eddie, though deep in the pocket

10:12 - receives clean possession outside the congestion after a dropped McKay mark, facing directly up-field thus with F50 structure and leads in full view, but seems to have never even glanced in that direction, resulting in a blind snap off his left that Betts and McGovern do not read correctly, and McKenzie would have gobbled up if not for a wonky bounce; worked out through this, and overlap run from others

8:40 - set himself up at the top of the D50 arc to protect the higher lead up the middle (presumably from the hotspot), but one glance behind him would have made it apparent he wasn't needed, then another glance straight down the corridor would have shown him he was needed further up to pressure release options; ball went quickly from one wing to the other, and into the pocket where Port got a shot on goal

8:17 - Gibbons rotates forward, moving Cuningham into his structural role in transitioning from HB; Cuningham receives through advantage paid from McGovern's free, hits McKay on the shoulder and Gibbons is used by not being used as he streams into the 50 for a regulation snap from 15m out

7:24 - Gibbons off the field now, Martin provides a receive option for transition off HB, and combines with Cuningham up the wing as our forward line is rich with 1v1 contests from the remaining forwards; Martin tries to draw something out, then takes the shot; Gibbons on wing at next centre bounce

6:40 - Gibbons (again, on the wing) gets caught up in the congestion after trailing Amon from the centre bounce, ball skids into his direction, he gathers cleanly - attacking side of the centre circle while facing in the defensive direction of the ground - then, after spotting Murphy in front of him (and possibly Cuningham in his periphery, in a position to shepherd) immediately handballs over his shoulder; unclear if intended target was Walsh or Pittonet, though both were in the congestion

6:40 (cont.) - free kick advantage immediately after this, slowly jogs into 50, not glancing to his left to spot three unmarked Port opponents being almost directly in front of him, then winding up in no man's land to impact the next reachable play offensive or defensively due to lack of urgency; almost removes himself from the next play due to anticipating the turnover being successful, but still shows zero urgency in reaction to a Houston fumble, both instances presenting opportunities for an outside receive (one likely, one unlikely) and then easy score

I can't be bothered watching the rest of the quarter, but you get the idea. Do I expect him to nail all three of those opportunities? No, but I think it's fair to glance in another direction every so often when it's bleedingly obvious his team mate isn't looking to pass to him. I also think it's reasonable to quickly glance towards the outside of the congestion after securing the football. An AFL footballer should not be blind handballing over their shoulder back into congestion; you always direct the ball to the outside unless you have a read (whether it be a voice or having had a glance/view prior).

I also think it's fair that you should have the tenth of a second to check to your left while jogging to position, even if you're tiring. I expect an AFL footballer to execute 2 of those 3 correctly most of the time.

I'm highlighting Cuningham and Martin's work a bit because it shows what happens when others get to step into his role. Cuningham isn't exactly brilliant in knowing where to run, but I presume he's more coachable than a puppy, so once he gets more dedicated minutes on how to read the incoming ball and where he can position to potentially gather the crumb if he cannot impact the marking point in the pack, his athleticism and skill execution will allow him to be far more damaging than Gibbons' efforts in that role. Frankly, Cuningham's possessions tend to mean an extra 15-30 m of ball movement by default.

Martin is a weapon that can do damage in midfield but the opposition will try to drag much deeper, so if we're able to add more pace to the team overall as well as more minutes in the midfield rotation for him, I'd imagine that opens up more possessions in his way, which creates far more effective scoring chains than what we both know Gibbons can produce.

You keep trying to vaguely point out what Gibbons does well, but I believe what he does well can be replaced on the aggregate through some simple coaching of our more talented younger players. It's not some black-and-white world where they're all blue-ribbon recruits who won't get their hands dirty, and if that's still a mentality that exists in the industry, then I'd consider it priority #1 for improving talent ID and player development because it's really ******* stupid to think that way.

What cannot be papered over is critical decision making errors that turn regulation AFL play into an unnecessary scrap, and unfortunately Gibbons keeps producing these moments more than others. It's frustrating to me that Champion Data doesn't consistently capturing these moments as clangers (i.e. unforced errors), but I'm hoping their detailed statistical packages highlight what's occurring through related categories.

Your turn, or another one-line post that comes off as incredibly arrogant?


I'm trying to sidestep a circular argument bereft of any real information. Arrow gets into these arguments 3 times a week and it often never progresses into an actual explanation of his thought process. Even now, I'm responding to an obvious deflection while being told I'm an idiot.

I'm not here to be cagey and defensive, I'm here to learn and to discuss. This is not an industry forum: it's a forum for fans, and inbetween the parochial nonsense, rumours and memes, I'd actually like to develop my knowledge of the game.


Cripps moved really well today, with what would be a 26+ possession game under normal conditions. Keep in mind that the shorter the game gets, the less his ability to grind through the game comes to the fore.

This is an excellent post. I still wouldn’t drop Gibbo.

 

[Ald Gardiner]

If we’re not in the same mental zone as we were against Port we lose to these flogs, simple as that.

 

[Arr0w]

Cunners wasn't poor against the Dogs.
Played a defensive role. 5 Score involvements, including the brilliant kick immediately before half time. Very few in our team could have made that play.

Newnes does not have Cuningham's weapons.

And Cuners doesn't have Newnes's consistency, his reading of the play or his defensive attributes

Cuners has xfactor, but is wasted as a HF, gets caught in no mans land and goes long periods without getting near it and you know it

As a club, we need to move past potential and play guys that will contribute every qtr/match

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

Would be nice if the media could cool it on laying into North this week. This is the sort of thing that usually produces a BS one-week "Shinboner Spirit(tm)" bounce in form - and we find ourselves in the wrong place at the wrong time scripted as the villains.

Barrett tearing into Roos

Just let them be an awful 2-goal team for another week, pls!

Media didn’t let up on us every week FAZ, i say fk’em if their stinking it up so bad then bad luck...
Media spray won’t make any difference anyway, atm they are crap ...

 

[Stamos]

And Cuners doesn't have Newnes's consistency, his reading of the play or his defensive attributes

Cuners has xfactor, but is wasted as a HF, gets caught in no mans land and goes long periods without getting near it and you know it

As a club, we need to move past potential and play guys that will contribute every qtr/match

Newnes is only consistent in that he does some nice things, and some terrible things.
The good things are not sufficiently covering for the poor things.

 

[Mondyboy]

And Cuners doesn't have Newnes's consistency, his reading of the play or his defensive attributes

Cuners has xfactor, but is wasted as a HF, gets caught in no mans land and goes long periods without getting near it and you know it

As a club, we need to move past potential and play guys that will contribute every qtr/match

I’d like to see Cuners play more on the ball and particularly the centre bounce. If we’re going to play Crippa and Ed at most bounces, a bit of x-factor would be great. It’s what Jack M provides when he goes in the guts (albeit he has a stronger body than Cuners).

 

[agro]

Media didn’t let up on us every week, i say f’em if their stinking it up so bad then bad luck...
Media spray won’t make any difference, atm they are crap ...

Exactly- I will be more pissed off losing this game than our one kick loss against Port.

 

[chunkylover53]

Your reasons regarding Gibbons are bias or delusional

Gibbons won't be dropped, no matter how hard you petition the cause

i cannot believe people are still calling for this?

even mutual supporters are starting to rate him.

fluffs what opportunities? he kicked a goal on the boundary with a breeze to get us firing in Q1. Had a hand in almost all our goals.

Bizarre scenes.

 

[Jimmae]

North usually rise for these, but here's the thing: this isn't the North Melbourne of other seasons. The change of coach seems to have unsettled their side a bit, and they are making mistakes they wouldn't normally. Without Brown kicking a bag, they can't score, and they turn the ball over a whole heap. In years past, they were a good average team. They'd take it up to you, and they'd beat you up if they could, but if you were decent you'd get the game on your terms for long enough to win it. Their backline is where they're strongest, but it's looking leakier than it ever has.

Ultimately, they should never have gotten rid of Scott; funny, I know. The club should've revamped their recruitment procedures and gone to the draft a whole lot more, and they should've encouraged him to stay out of their recruiting, but giving him the arse has bitten them, hard. These were his players, he knew how to motivate them and they knew his game. I'd be in his ear to replace John Barker at the end of the season; he ran a decent midfield with substandard parts, aside from Cunnington.

I think it's been mentioned in this thread that North currently do not have line coaches for their forward and defensive setups, so that's probably impacting their performance both directly and indirectly.

Jim, can you clearly state what qtr this happened? 1st, 2nd, etc?

I mentioned this was the first quarter in the first line, and the timestamps relate to the time-on clock on the broadcast. There were actually a couple of more mistakes in there towards the end of the quarter, but it was late and I'd felt I'd made my point. His game last week was better than this, and this game was better than the previous 4, but we've seen that form line from him before: last year. It's not about his kilometres covered, or his pressure acts, it's about how often that translates into an adequate result, and if that's occurring as often as it should be.

The goal should be replacing a guy who can't kick 40m, who's probably going to get bumped off the ball more often than not, and isn't particularly above average at anything while having poor decision making in critical moments, not becoming reliant on him to be involved in 30-40% of our attacking moves.

Yep. I love Jim, and there’s no doubt that Gibbo could be cleaner with the ball, but you’d have to have blinkers to not notice his effort, his attack on the ball and his score assists (of which he had 5).

And I love Fish, but if he’s replacing anyone it’s probably Murph (and that ain’t happening anytime soon either).

I'm not suggesting he's not putting in effort, I'm just frustrated with people ignoring clear issues with the final product, and I've said as much on several occasions now. Fisher can deliver enough of what he's doing without the ball, then well and truly make up for it with what he's delivering with the ball.

We should be developing Fisher's ability to play off HF, because it's probably where he'll end up longer term if he's to remain in the side, and I much rather we invested in making these attacking players round out their defensive game as it'll create a huge advantage for us. Look at Levi, McKay, McGovern and Betts... surely we can expect that kind of effort from any forward, rather than picking someone specifically to fulfil that?

 

[Gethelred]

I think it's been mentioned in this thread that North currently do not have line coaches for their forward and defensive setups, so that's probably impacting their performance both directly and indirectly.

I hadn't read the rest of the thread, didn't see this.

How is this something that they're allowing to happen? This is unconscionable for a club to do at AFL level.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Same side for me. We weren’t perfect but the improvement has been great. Fisher is the only player I would be thinking about bringing in. If they were playing for my life it would be out Cuningham, in Fisher and that’s it.

 

[Jimmae]

I hadn't read the rest of the thread, didn't see this.

How is this something that they're allowing to happen? This is unconscionable for a club to do at AFL level.

As I understand it they're stood down rather than having their contract terminated, so once normal revenue streams return they're back in the mix, but yes it's not a great look.

How your coaching team will look after COVID-19 changes

Clubs will head into the season's restart having made significant changes to coaching panels

www.afl.com.au

Line coaches Jared Rivers (defence) and Brendan Whitecross (forwards) remain stood down along with Academy coach Michael Firrito and ruck coach Will Minson. Senior coach Rhyce Shaw said this week the call was made to assist the club in the immediate term. It has left head of development Gavin Brown, defensive development coach Heath Scotland and senior assistant Jade Rawling to spread their responsibilities.

 

[TerryWallet]

Only potential change would be Cunningham out for me. You can't bob up and play one great game then nothing for the rest of the year. He needs to lift his work rate to get in better positions.

Also Newnes is conning us like he did to the Saints for years. Does just enough each week without dominating to hold his spot. He is an average player at best.

Getting images of Newnes as the classic olden days Thursday night specialist lol. The player who helps out on the BBQ so he can present 3 steak sandwiches to the selection box while the rest make do with a sanger in bread.

 

[F_therest]

This is a huge game for us and will arguably tell us more about where we're at than yesterday's performance.

North are very poor but seem to lift against us every year. They have bullied us physically and it has routinely translated to blowouts on the scoreboard.

Not any more. This is a game we are expected to win and one that we simply must win. I don't care if it is by 1 point or by 60 points, just get the job done.

Not this week.

Form aside, on the physical side of things they'll be missing Ziebell and Cunnington. Zurhaar & Anderson may also be out and that's their 4 toughest players.

Also the last few years we've been running with guys like Murphy/Fisher/Dow/SPS in the middle up against some of those bulls. This week our centre square will include Cripps/Curnow/Setterfield and maybe Kennedy/Martin/Cunners. No smaller, weaker players there this time that North can bully.

As you said, we simply can't drop this game...it'll undo a lot of our good work this year.

 

[F_therest]

I think it would be prudent to start resting some players for what is about to come starting this week. I don't think its a sign of arrogance rather smart list management.

All of our over 30s pretty much have a like for like in the reserves banging the door down. Its a good position to be in. I would start with Murphy. I think we loose nothing by bringing in O'Brien or Fisher.

Not sure why people want to rest players...right now it's still one game a week as per usual. If they're fit, they play.

The 'management' might start when we're in the period of games where we only get a 4 or 5 day break after the North game.