Robbie Gray v Andy Otten

[hendo8888]

I think Otten will be our workhorse, no frills type player. Bit of an Edwards. Will be a very good player, but lacks that little bit of something to stand out.

Gray, to me has that something special about him. Seems to have more time than usual and has that bit of a cocky nature that the small forwards need.

Both will be more than handy players for their respective teams, Gray will do more flashy things and stand out more, Otten will just consistantly do his job, contribute for the team, but won't stand out as much. Which of those is more important? Hard to say.

I'm biased, and still can't decide. I'm happy with us having Otten as he fills more of a need than Gray would, but I'd also be very happy to have Gray at the Crows if he feels like crossing over.

 

[Jex]

Hurley will probably be the better player over their careers, but right now Gray is better. Then again, if we were using who will have the better career as the criteria then Gray would be your second best player behind Hurley. Pears and Gray are about even.

blah blah blah

It's ridiculous how much Bombers supporters overrate their players on this site.

It is amazing.

 

[Schmucta]

Basic stats don't come close to showing Gray's value. The only stat that even comes close to correctly calculating the value of a player (who's not Joel Bowden) and his impact on a game is Supercoach points. Gray averaged 84.6. Only Prismall (barely, and I'd argue that Gray is more damaging but oh well), Winderlich, Stanton, Fletcher and Watson averaged more last year.

I'll give you Hille and McVeigh because of his injury problems and Welsh because he also plays a stopping role. That's 8 Bombers who are better than Gray, and I know how you guys cream yourselves over Ryder so you can have him too. That's 9. Gray's still in your top 10.

Just when you thought you might have heard it all...

You are surely taking the piss yeah? I mean you cannot be serious?

Something tells me you are though, and I really still can't believe the stupidity of that statement.

Leigh Montagna > Adam Goodes
Nick Dal Santo > Adam Goodes
Leon Davis > Chris Judd
David Armitage, Shane Tuck, Brad Sewell, Andrew Swallow, Jason Winderlich, Jarrad McVeigh, Jude Bolton, Brett Deledio, Matt Priddis, Scott Pendlebury, Marc Murphy ALL, yes I say ALL > SIMON BLACK..

I could go on and on, but I see no need, that has to be one of the stupidest assessments on football I have ever heard.

And Robbie Gray would be nowhere near Essendon's top 10. Fletcher, Watson, Stanton, McVeigh, Welsh, Hurley, Pears, Davey, Ryder, Hille, Prismall, Winderlich, even the likes of Williams, Myers, Reimers and Dempsey would be ahead of the similarly compared (to Gray) Monfries.

But you hold onto your SC scores lol

Hurley - Has played 10 games. lol. No.
Pears - Good season, but nowhere near = to Gray's 53 goal, 323 disposal contribution.
Dempsey - Behind in just about every stat ever recorded, and plays (I think) as a loose man in defence? lol. No.

Clear to see who overrates their players on this thread I believe. Getting ahead of ourselves a little there aren't we? lol

 

[Powerade 08]

Clear to see who overrates their players on this thread I believe. Getting ahead of ourselves a little there aren't we? lol

I'm not sure what you mean.

Goals kicked: 30
Goal Assists: 23
Goals Contributed: 53
Average per game: 2.6

 

[Schmucta]

I'm not sure what you mean.

Goals kicked: 30
Goal Assists: 23
Goals Contributed: 53
Average per game: 2.6

Can't argue with that I suppose, but I have never seen the assists be added to the goal tally.

I stand corrected.

 

[CrazyQ]

Gray is better than some of those players Schmucta, especially Myers, Reimers, Davey and Dempsey. He'll climb as well. Gray is a class player.

 

[Schmucta]

Gray is better than some of those players Schmucta, especially Myers, Reimers, Davey and Dempsey. He'll climb as well. Gray is a class player.

Gray's Stats line up very well with Monfries as the graph shows, and my list is based on where Monfries sits in the score of things in my eyes at Essendon.

Still nowhere near a top 10 player at Essendon.

 

[CrazyQ]

Gray is better than Monfries.

 

[Schmucta]

Gray is better than Monfries.

Stats provided have them very much on an even keel. Playing the same position. That might change this year with Gray though moving into the midfield.

 

[CrazyQ]

Stats are useful sometimes. When a player averages 30 disposals and 1 goal is up against a player who averages 13 disposals and 0.5 goals, stats tell the story. In this case, if you have watched both players enough, you have to make your own mind up without stats.

Gray has a touch of class that can't be tought. He is so balanced and clean, yet has another 2-3 levels to go before reaching his potential. Monfries is a good hit up flanker, but Gray has him covered.

 

[Schmucta]

Stats are useful sometimes. When a player averages 30 disposals and 1 goal is up against a player who averages 13 disposals and 0.5 goals, stats tell the story. In this case, if you have watched both players enough, you have to make your own mind up without stats.

Gray has a touch of class that can't be tought. He is so balanced and clean, yet has another 2-3 levels to go before reaching his potential. Monfries is a good hit up flanker, but Gray has him covered.

I am yet to see the touch of class with Robbie Gray, If he has Monfries beaten, and I would be inclined to say he does, it would not be by much at this stage. I don't think Monfries can get any better, Gray might be able to, and would need to, to be a top 10 player at Essendon. That was the initial point that I responded to. At this time the stats are very very close, so there is not a lot between them at all.

It was a good comparison in any case.

 

[Jex]

Gray is better than some of those players Schmucta, especially Myers, Reimers, Davey and Dempsey. He'll climb as well. Gray is a class player.

I have a problem with the words “is better”. If we’re talking 2009, I see it like this…

* Gray had a better year than Myers, clearly.
* Gray had a better year than Reimers, who played only 9 games due to injury.
* Gray and Dempsey were about even.
* Gray had a better year than Davey, who was returning from an acl injury from the previous season.

As far as 2010 is concerned, it's highly debateable that Gray will be better than any of them. When I rank Essendon’s list, I rank it with a view to the upcoming season. For this reason, kids like Pears and Hurley (both kpp’s) would be in my top 10.

1. Fletcher
2. Watson
3. Hille
4. Winderlich
5. Ryder
6. McVeigh
7. Stanton
8. Pears
9. Hurley
10. Welsh

I’m quite confident that Dempsey and Reimers will be better players than Gray (imo Dempsey already is) and will reserve judgement on Myers until I see more of him this season.

 

[cmndstab]

I continue to be a supporter of Myers despite how little he's managed to show so far but there is a long way to go before he's even close to Gray's level. Dempsey too for that matter in the little I've seen of him.

This argument is getting painful because I doubt very much that either side's supporters have watched that much of each other's youngsters that closely. I guess realistically I've seen more of Gray than the others so I'm biased in that regard as well but I'll just say that Gray has the talent to do things with the footy that very few other players can do, and manages to win a moderate amount of it while he's at it. If he can up his possession count a touch in subsequent years (and more midfield time will help that) he'll become a top-10% in the comp type of player.

 

[Banked.]

This argument is getting painful because I doubt very much that either side's supporters have watched that much of each other's youngsters that closely.

Problem is this thread is lacking non-bias comments. I think it's hard to judge who's better out of Otten and Gray since they are completely different players. Maybe in a year or two we can judge Porps vs. Gray as they're similar players and will both be at their peak then.

On the Gray vs. Essendon debate. IMO Gray would easily slot into the Bombers team and come 2011-2012 he would be one of their better players. In fact by then Gray would slot easily into any side.

 

[Schulzenfest]

Just when you thought you might have heard it all...

You are surely taking the piss yeah? I mean you cannot be serious?

Leigh Montagna > Adam Goodes
Nick Dal Santo > Adam Goodes
Leon Davis > Chris Judd
David Armitage, Shane Tuck, Brad Sewell, Andrew Swallow, Jason Winderlich, Jarrad McVeigh, Jude Bolton, Brett Deledio, Matt Priddis, Scott Pendlebury, Marc Murphy ALL, yes I say ALL > SIMON BLACK..

Which is why I said 'comes close to'. Obviously no stat ever is or will be perfect, but SC is the closest that we've got.

Gray's Stats line up very well with Monfries as the graph shows

But those are just flat out simple kicks, handballs, goals etc. stats which don't even come close to showing the worth of a player. By that logic Jordan McMahon is probably a better player than both of them.

I have a problem with the words “is better”. If we’re talking 2009, I see it like this…

* Gray had a better year than Myers, clearly.

* Gray had a better year than Reimers, who played only 9 games due to injury.

* Gray and Dempsey were about even.

* Gray had a better year than Davey, who was returning from an acl injury from the previous season.

As far as 2010 is concerned, it's highly debateable that Gray will be better than any of them. When I rank Essendon’s list, I rank it with a view to the upcoming season. For this reason, kids like Pears and Hurley (both kpp’s) would be in my top 10.

I wouldn't say Gray and Dempsey were even, but OK. I realized that Reimers only played 9 games, which is why I used averages in the comparison, not totals. Gray was still clearly ahead. And you can't use the 'Reimers was playing injured' excuse because Gray spent half the year playing injured as well. And Davey may have been coming back from an ACL this year, which gives him an excuse for '09, but he's never been better than Gray was this year injury or not so at this stage Gray is still the better player.

I’m quite confident that Dempsey and Reimers will be better players than Gray (imo Dempsey already is) and will reserve judgement on Myers until I see more of him this season.

It's pointless comparing Dempsey and Gray, but can I ask why you think that Reimers will be better?

 

[Jex]

God knows there are no current Bombers who'll end up champions

Yes, only Boak, Hartlett, Moore and of course Gray will be champions. Doubt God has given it too much thought though.

Williams hasn't been good for two years and now his knee's shot, whereas Gray's on the upward curve of his career.

If you don’t count 47 goals in a Premiership year in 2008, Williams last 2 years have been terrible.

I wouldn't say Gray and Dempsey were even, but OK. I realized that Reimers only played 9 games, which is why I used averages in the comparison, not totals. Gray was still clearly ahead. And you can't use the 'Reimers was playing injured' excuse because Gray spent half the year playing injured as well. And Davey may have been coming back from an ACL this year, which gives him an excuse for '09, but he's never been better than Gray was this year injury or not so at this stage Gray is still the better player.
It's pointless comparing Dempsey and Gray, but can I ask why you think that Reimers will be better?

Davey’s first 14 games in his first season were sensational and better than anything Gray has done. Reimers was better than Gray in 2008…time will tell who turns out the better player. Dempsey has just completed his first full season after 3 years of injuries…he’ll only get better.

 

[Schulzenfest]

Yes, only Boak, Hartlett, Moore and of course Gray will be champions. Doubt God has given it too much thought though.

So you don't think any Bombers other than Hurley or Pears will be better than Gray then? Fair enough.

If you don’t count 47 goals in a Premiership year in 2008, Williams last 2 years have been terrible.

My bad. Last year Williams was crap. 13 games for 16 goals.

Davey’s first 14 games in his first season were sensational and better than anything Gray has done.

I disagree and the stats disagree (IMO the only thing Davey has over Gray is defensive pressure, Gray's the better player in all other areas), but you keep thinking that. BTW, 'more exciting' doesn't equal 'better'.

Reimers was better than Gray in 2008

I disagree and the stats disagree, but you keep thinking that.

Dempsey has just completed his first full season after 3 years of injuries

So has Gray.

…he’ll only get better.

So will Gray. What's your point? BTW Gray led Dempsey in just about every stat too. Sad that your defensive seagull couldn't get more disposals than our forward pocket/occasional inside midfielder.

Gray leads pretty much all of these guys in just about every statistical category. I know stats aren't everything, but Robbie is the type of guy whose statistics don't show his full value, as opposed to some players whose stats make them look better than they are, so you can't pull out that excuse. I'm really not sure how you could possibly say that Davey, Reimers or Dempsey are better than Gray.

 

[CrazyQ]

1. Fletcher
2. Watson
3. Hille
4. Winderlich
5. Ryder
6. McVeigh
7. Stanton
8. Gray
9. Pears
10. Hurley

Gray would be roughly around that area and could well go ahead of a few players in the next year or two. I like Winderlich, he's a jet but Gray has the potential to be better lets just say that.

 

[Jex]

So you don't think any Bombers other than Hurley or Pears will be better than Gray then? Fair enough.

You've deluded yourself into thinking that Gray is Cyril Rioli, Joel Selwood or Trent Cotchin. It's pretty sad really. I've already stated that I think Reimers and Dempsey will be better players than Gray. Hurley and Pears already are.

So has Gray.

Gray was only in his 3rd season. Glad you know your players so well.

Sad that your defensive seagull couldn't get more disposals than our forward pocket/occasional inside midfielder.

Sad that you're incredibly ignorant. Not all aborigines stick to the flashy outside stuff, some (like Dempsey) actually do some defending.

And how exactly do the stats disagree that Reimers was better than Gray in 2008? Gray averaged more goals playing primarily as a small forward, other than that, Reimers had him covered and I predict he will again, in 2010.

 

[Jex]

8. Gray
9. Pears
10. Hurley

Gray would be roughly around that area and could well go ahead of a few players in the next year or two.

So would you take Gray at North ahead of Pears and Hurley?

 

[afc9798]

Gray is an excellent player, but the comparison between a small forward/midfield player and a defender is ridiculous. If I wanted a defender it's Otten by a mile, but if I wanted a samll forward well obviously it's Gray. Other thing is that we won't get a chance to compare them this year due to Otto's ACL (b**** f*** things). Gray is a gun who stood up in some very ordinary performances from those around him. A small forward is the worst position to play when your midfield is performing like a sack of you know what.

 

[Schmucta]

1. Fletcher
2. Watson
3. Hille
4. Winderlich
5. Ryder
6. McVeigh
7. Stanton
8. Welsh
9. Pears
10. Hurley
11. Williams
12. Gray (only ahead of Reimers, Davey and Dempsey due to injuries, and even then, just for arguments sake)

Gray would be roughly around that area and could well go ahead of a few players in the next year or two. I like Winderlich, he's a jet but Gray has the potential to be better lets just say that.

 

[Jex]

You can throw NLM ahead of him as well. Better stats, quicker, stronger, longer kick, better mark.

 

[Schmucta]

You can throw NLM ahead of him as well. Better stats, quicker, stronger, longer kick, better mark.

And better dukes

So I'd say around 13th/14th at this stage.

It might change after this year, time will tell.

 

[Schulzenfest]

You've deluded yourself into thinking that Gray is Cyril Rioli, Joel Selwood or Trent Cotchin.

No I haven't. I just think he's a better youngster than anyone at Essendon other than Hurley.

How the **** is injuries an excuse for Dempsey, Reimers and Davey being behind Gray? It was Dempsey's first full season this year, just as it was with Gray. They're on even footing there. Reimers played 9 games, which is why I used averages which cancels out the injury excuse. And even if it didn't, Gray's '09 was better than Kyle's relatively injury-free '08, just as it was better than Davey's '07.

Face it, at this stage in their careers Gray > Davey and Gray > Reimers. Even though it's pointless to compare Gray to Dempsey when they play completely different positions, I'd much rather Gray on my team and a lot of the posts in this thread indicate that neutrals would prefer Gray over Dempsey too.