Ross Lyon Most Underrated Coach By General Public?

[Freomaniac]

It's a very fine line success and failure isn't it? But wasn't it Lyon himself who said sport is a microcosm of life ?

Maybe so. But I am not a hater.

I savored that 2012-15 finals period. Its the only time freo made finals for at least 2 years in a row.

Before that, I only had the 2003 elim final loss, 3 finals in 2006 and a 2010 semi final loss to look back on. That's only 6 dockers finals I have seen before Ross Lyon rocked at freo at the end of 2011.

 

[Ambrose Burnside]

The best coaches not currently coaching in the AFL are Ross Lyon and Alastair Clarkson and those two would be ahead of most coaches currently coaching too.

 

[juss]

harsh mate.... could of got flags in 2009, 2010 and 2013 if he had some luck.

Nathan Buckley would of got a premiership medal as a coach in 2018 if it wasn't for a dom sheed kick on a tight spot.

Isn't he like the second most games coached all time without a flag? That's across two clubs.

Overrated doesn't necessarily mean bad coach. It's just he is talked about as this coaching guru in the media but his philosophies have failed to deliver on the Grand stage time and time again.

 

[Jack Green]

Maybe so. But I am not a hater.

I savored that 2012-15 finals period. Its the only time freo made finals for at least 2 years in a row.

Before that, I only had the 2003 elim final loss, 3 finals in 2006 and a 2010 semi final loss to look back on. That's only 6 dockers finals I have seen before Ross Lyon rocked at freo at the end of 2011.

I'm no hater - had only been to one grand final in 97 in over 2 decades before his arrival. So sneaking to 3 in 2 years was great but devastaing at the end of 2011 to realise the group would not salute. He's my age . Personally don't see him coaching again. Few years out of the caper makes it difficult IMO.

 

[Jack Green]

Isn't he like the second most games coached all time without a flag? That's across two clubs.

Overrated doesn't necessarily mean bad coach. It's just he is talked about as this coaching guru in the media but his philosophies have failed to deliver on the Grand stage time and time again.

13 years - made 3 grand finals and 3 prelims in 6 of the years and win rate of 58%. I must admit I find it difficult to rate him. His last few years at Freo certainly tarnished his reputation. Didn't like his game style , but coaches coach to win not please the fans. Ken Hinkley into his 10th season at Port this year. 58% win rate with 2 prelims.
You can certainly be a great player but never win a flag. Can you be a great coach and never win a flag?

 

[juss]

13 years - made 3 grand finals and 3 prelims in 6 of the years and win rate of 58%. I must admit I find it difficult to rate him. His last few years at Freo certainly tarnished his reputation. Didn't like his game style , but coaches coach to win not please the fans. Ken Hinkley into his 10th season at Port this year. 58% win rate with 2 prelims.
You can certainly be a great player but never win a flag. Can you be a great coach and never win a flag?

What needs to be considered as well is the state he left both lists in. The Saints were cooked for a long while and are still working their way out of it to contend again, and Freo were/are also in rebuild mode without recent finals.

 

[Jack Green]

What needs to be considered as well is the state he left both lists in. The Saints were cooked for a long while and are still working their way out of it to contend again, and Freo were/are also in rebuild mode without recent finals.

Yep. 2 things count against him despite his excellent record.
A] his negative game-plan not sealing the deal in big games
B] how he left his clubs.

If he'd snuck the Saints or Dockers over the line for a flag , I don't think their long suffering fans would have minded mind you

 

[Corkintheocean]

Took over two of the most talented and primed (from an age demographic perspective) lists in the last 25 years and couldn't get either of them over the line.

If anything, he falls into the overrated category for me, not underrated.

 

[estibador]

What needs to be considered as well is the state he left both lists in. The Saints were cooked for a long while and are still working their way out of it to contend again, and Freo were/are also in rebuild mode without recent finals.

To be fair, both of those clubs have historically shown themselves to be well and truly capable of being perennially shit without Lyon's help.

Yet only shown themselves capable of being genuine forces when he was there.

I subscribe to the thinking that he is (or at least was) an excellent coach who was unlucky when it mattered. Unlucky that he ran into superior opposition in GF's as well as being unlucky with things like unfortunate bounces, inaccuracy of players, etc in those games.

Many on bigfooty are obsessed with the black and white thinking that if you win premierships you're good, if you don't you're bad. It's far too simplistic. Roos is the perfect example - Barry doesn't take that mark and he isn't a premiership coach. He would have done absolutely nothing differently yet many on here would rate him completely differently and insist his style 'can't win grand finals'.

All dependant on whether one player takes one mark in a single contest. Same for Simpson with one player kicking a clutch goal, amongst plenty of other examples. Lyon was just on the wrong side of that coin flip.

 

[juss]

To be fair, both of those clubs have historically shown themselves to be well and truly capable of being perennially sh*t without Lyon's help.

Yet only shown themselves capable of being genuine forces when he was there.

I subscribe to the thinking that he is (or at least was) an excellent coach who was unlucky when it mattered. Unlucky that he ran into superior opposition in GF's as well as being unlucky with things like unfortunate bounces, inaccuracy of players, etc in those games.

Many on bigfooty are obsessed with the black and white thinking that if you win premierships you're good, if you don't you're bad. It's far too simplistic. Roos is the perfect example - Barry doesn't take that mark and he isn't a premiership coach. He would have done absolutely nothing differently yet many on here would rate him completely differently and insist his style 'can't win grand finals'.

All dependant on whether one player takes one mark in a single contest. Same for Simpson with one player kicking a clutch goal, amongst plenty of other examples. Lyon was just on the wrong side of that coin flip.

Rightly or wrongly, I guess that's how we measure players, coaches and teams in our game.

No one cares that a 1 point loss could easily have been a 1 point win, some are painted in glory and the losers are "not good enough".

 

[estibador]

Rightly or wrongly, I guess that's how we measure players, coaches and teams in our game.

No one cares that a 1 point loss could easily have been a 1 point win, some are painted in glory and the losers are "not good enough".

I for one definitely measure posters on whether they're able to look beyond that and acknowledge nuance though. Plenty of examples of both in this thread.

 

[Scotland]

John Worsfold won one flag by one point as a coach. That could've easily been two or none. I don't mind if people don't consider him a great coach. Definitely a good coach but had his limitations and was a bit one dimensional. John Worsfold no flags from two GFs vs Ross Lyon one flag (or more) is a different comparison than it is now. Key difference is that Worsfold coached 12 years at one club that is traditionally stable and successful while RTB coached at two clubs that are traditionally dysfunctional not successful. St Kilda 2009-11 and Freo 2012-15 are good eras for those clubs compared to before or since.

The biggest criticisms of Lyon are game plan (too rigid, too defensive) and list management. He had a pretty consistent MO. Melbourne just won a flag with 5 players under 21 and 7 with under 50 games experience. That's not a Ross Lyon team. He favoured having a large core of players in their prime age range playing within a system. Which got St Kilda and Freo close, but then left their lists in poor shape. St Kilda missed the finals 8 years on the bounce, Freo 6 and counting with Lyon still coaching for 4 of those.

 

[White Dogg]

Ross Lyon should be mentioned in the same breath as the likes of John Longmire, Paul Roos and John Worsfold. Had Stephen Milne

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sharked the ball rather than wait for it to sit up for him, Lyon would be a premiership coach and talked about as a master coach, much like how Paul Roos is talked up as a master coach.

 

[The 747]

The Great Enemy of football was a very good coach. Hopefully he never has the opportunity to ruin our enjoyment of the game again.

 

[All Aust]

Such a dull name for rating as successful.

Ross Lygon - Street would have got that him a gig coaching the spooners, game plan or nought, every day in the year. As long as he could pass the paper bag question. Ross is at least, still in the the caper then.

Roos Lyon with a shadowy Paul Roos in the background is a perfect set up for development of of a shinboner game plan played by early draft picks, could save a club. Rated then?

Ross Lion going to the Brisvegas to co coach and take over from Fages probs gets a flag.


Then he rates.

 

[Freomaniac]

John Worsfold won one flag by one point as a coach. That could've easily been two or none. I don't mind if people don't consider him a great coach. Definitely a good coach but had his limitations and was a bit one dimensional. John Worsfold no flags from two GFs vs Ross Lyon one flag (or more) is a different comparison than it is now. Key difference is that Worsfold coached 12 years at one club that is traditionally stable and successful while RTB coached at two clubs that are traditionally dysfunctional not successful. St Kilda 2009-11 and Freo 2012-15 are good eras for those clubs compared to before or since.

The biggest criticisms of Lyon are game plan (too rigid, too defensive) and list management. He had a pretty consistent MO. Melbourne just won a flag with 5 players under 21 and 7 with under 50 games experience. That's not a Ross Lyon team. He favoured having a large core of players in their prime age range playing within a system. Which got St Kilda and Freo close, but then left their lists in poor shape. St Kilda missed the finals 8 years on the bounce, Freo 6 and counting with Lyon still coaching for 4 of those.

Yes its 100 per cent ross lyons fault that he left freos list in a bad shape. Yeah its ross lyons fault that Anthony Morabito had missed 3 years of footy from 2011-13 due to multiple knee injuries.

I have said this before and will say it again. If I had to say a percentage between 0%-100% of Ross Lyon contributing to freos current problems, It would be between 15%-30%.

Recruiters and medical staff have to take some responsibility too. So do the players

 

[Cyber_punk]

I'm glad he never won a flag because I like to see overly defensive, negative dour football punished.

 

[Scotland]

Yes its 100 per cent ross lyons fault that he left freos list in a bad shape. Yeah its ross lyons fault that Anthony Morabito had missed 3 years of footy from 2011-13 due to multiple knee injuries.

I have said this before and will say it again. If I had to say a percentage between 0%-100% of Ross Lyon contributing to freos current problems, It would be between 15%-30%.

Recruiters and medical staff have to take some responsibility too. So do the players

I know you are a RTB fanboi but calm down. Morabito was drafted in 2009 and was a non-factor in the Ross Lyon era. Everyone would have loved to have seen him play a 100 or 200 game career instead of 26 but his legend grows every year, and it's not like his presence would've changed Ross Lyon from who he is.

It's not a coincidence that St Kilda and Freo both ended up in deep holes after Ross Lyon left. Say what you like about Hawthorn's list right now (there's a million page thread all about it), but no one is saying 'It's got nothing to do with Clarko he was just the coach'. He wanted Wingard, O'Meara etc. just as much as he wanted Lake, Hale, Puopolo etc.

King, Gardiner, Schneider, Dempster, Ray, Peake, Dawson, Jones, McQualter... these are the sort of guys RTB brought in and/or persisted with. Meanwhile David Armitage (first round pick) and Jack Steven (eventual 4 time B&F winner) couldn't get regular games and Tom Lynch (first round pick) left.

He brought Dawson with him to Freo and recruited Spurr and Daynle Pearce and persisted with Mzungu, Suban, Ibbotson, Clancee Pearce, De Boer etc. Less said about the first round picks in that period the better. By the time it became evident something needed to change you had Lachie Neale who was 23 or under that had played 50 games and... maybe Tom Sheridan? Brad Hill wanting to join in 2016 as a 23 year old was a gift from the list management gods.

If you borrow from the future for the present then inevitably there is a price to pay down the track. St Kilda and Freo have both now paid that price, but unfortunately for them didn't win flags. People were talking up Ross Lyon as a potential coach for Carlton or Collingwood for this year. If he took over the Blues would you expect him to implement an attacking, free flowing game plan and put his faith in the young players? I doubt it. More likely he would implement a rigid game plan and be on the look out for more Ed Curnows.

 

[t_94]

A lot better than Michael Voss lol

 

[Freomaniac]

A lot better than Michael Voss lol

You Leave crazy Vossy out of this lol

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

It makes me laugh when people count 2010 as two grand finals. Yeah and if the Saints had kicked one more goal in 2009 and Max Rooke

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hadn’t taken that mark they would have played four grand finals in two years under Ross. Incredible stuff.

 

[VinnieB]

He is limited.
Needs a team on the up.

A failure in starting from the bottom and building/developing a team.
Groping skills underrated.

 

[Mr Cheese]

I know you are a RTB fanboi but calm down. Morabito was drafted in 2009 and was a non-factor in the Ross Lyon era. Everyone would have loved to have seen him play a 100 or 200 game career instead of 26 but his legend grows every year, and it's not like his presence would've changed Ross Lyon from who he is.

It's not a coincidence that St Kilda and Freo both ended up in deep holes after Ross Lyon left. Say what you like about Hawthorn's list right now (there's a million page thread all about it), but no one is saying 'It's got nothing to do with Clarko he was just the coach'. He wanted Wingard, O'Meara etc. just as much as he wanted Lake, Hale, Puopolo etc.

King, Gardiner, Schneider, Dempster, Ray, Peake, Dawson, Jones, McQualter... these are the sort of guys RTB brought in and/or persisted with. Meanwhile David Armitage (first round pick) and Jack Steven (eventual 4 time B&F winner) couldn't get regular games and Tom Lynch (first round pick) left.

He brought Dawson with him to Freo and recruited Spurr and Daynle Pearce and persisted with Mzungu, Suban, Ibbotson, Clancee Pearce, De Boer etc. Less said about the first round picks in that period the better. By the time it became evident something needed to change you had Lachie Neale who was 23 or under that had played 50 games and... maybe Tom Sheridan? Brad Hill wanting to join in 2016 as a 23 year old was a gift from the list management gods.

If you borrow from the future for the present then inevitably there is a price to pay down the track. St Kilda and Freo have both now paid that price, but unfortunately for them didn't win flags. People were talking up Ross Lyon as a potential coach for Carlton or Collingwood for this year. If he took over the Blues would you expect him to implement an attacking, free flowing game plan and put his faith in the young players? I doubt it. More likely he would implement a rigid game plan and be on the look out for more Ed Curnows.

So it was essentially the list manager's fault? Have to say I think Ross went due to off-field issues and a power-struggle between him & Rosich against Belly and Alcock as opposed to on-field issues. He did play youth when appropriate (stats back that up) and had us playing some exceptional counter attacking football in his last season - unfortunately lost Tabs, Hogan and Pearce and therefore any semblance of structure and the season fell away. We were 6th I believe with a decent percentage at the time.

Agree with the sentiment that he's probably better suited to a almost finished list and was extremely worried about him at Carlton or GWS; they'd have been up and about and challenging, no questions.

On SM-G955F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[gungho]

He's had some immensely talented teams and failed to win a flag.

It's not an easy thing to do, but hell, he's had his chance.

You what mate? The fact he had Dawson, sutcliffe, de boer, zac Clarke, danyle Pearce, myzungu, suban and Spurr in the starting 22 and got the Dockers to a grand final was a minor miracle. Sandi, mundy, pav and Walters were stars. Mcpharlin on his last legs and fyfe too young and overawed.

 

[Scotland]

So it was essentially the list manager's fault? Have to say I think Ross went due to off-field issues and a power-struggle between him & Rosich against Belly and Alcock as opposed to on-field issues. He did play youth when appropriate (stats back that up) and had us playing some exceptional counter attacking football in his last season - unfortunately lost Tabs, Hogan and Pearce and therefore any semblance of structure and the season fell away. We were 6th I believe with a decent percentage at the time.

Agree with the sentiment that he's probably better suited to a almost finished list and was extremely worried about him at Carlton or GWS; they'd have been up and about and challenging, no questions.

Burning first round picks is not Ross Lyon's fault. But it's no coincidence he left St Kilda with its list in a deep hole then stayed on a few years at Freo when they were in the same position. We traded for Tim Kelly. Regardless of what you think of the trade (I wasn't a fan at the time, still not) I don't see a scenario where the club gives up two first round picks for a 25 year old player without the coach giving it the rubber stamp. Rosco played the experienced players he had and brought in more where he could, at the expense of the development of (often more talented) younger players. Remember Freo played finals in 2010 before a poor finish to 2011 and they had a pretty young team. 8 players under 21 and 11 with under 50 games experience in the EF side that beat Hawthorn. Fast forward to the 2012 EF and that's 1 and 3. 2013 GF 1 and 4. Last final in 2015 0 and 2. Some of that is natural change from year to year but if those 18/19 year olds aren't given a crack under Mark Harvey then they aren't going to get it under Ross Lyon.

David Armitage played 28 games in his first 4 seasons. Jack Steven played 9 in his first 3. Tom Lynch played 6 in his first 3. Etc. Good teams lose young players for various reasons (Josh P Kennedy, Ben McGlynn, Shane Savage, Tom Mitchell, Tim Membrey etc.) but were St Kilda and Freo really better off with Ross Lyon's foot soldiers? Melbourne just won a flag and Luke Jackson was awesome. He did play more young players towards the end with Freo, but it took a 0-10 start in 2016 and they haven't played finals for 6 years. I think if he'd stuck around a few more years at the Dockers he could've had another top 4 side as the squad gained experience, but would've reverted to a rigid game plan.

There's nothing wrong with maintaining an age/experience profile in the 22 when you are contending for a flag (the Hawthorn and Geelong sides that won multiple flag were old and experienced) but if you neglect the future you invariably suffer.