List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

[Snuffaluphagus]

Has anyone watched ANY other Gold Coast and St Kilda games. There is a reason we struggled to score those games and the games were a cluster**** (we also didnt turn up against GC but thats against the point).

These teams are playing the way we have always been criticised of playing, they clog it up and force a shit fight more than any other teams this year. Now you could make an argument the guys should have been able to stick to the game plan we saw in the other three weeks but unfortunately, other teams try to stop you playing the way you like, and kudos to them, they did on those days through a mixture of positioning and relentless pressure (Saints pressure is undoubtedly number 1 this year).

We played exactly how we wanted too against North, WC and GWS. North are shit with almost zero pressure so the skills were high. West Coast are an extremely experienced, skilled and cohesive unit and our finishing was off so we didnt get it all our way and kicked ourselves out of the game. We played our best game of the season to date against GWS with a high skill level in the face of a very good team.

There should be zero doubts the gameplan has changed, its now about making sure its good enough to take us the distance and can be drilled into the guys well enough that they do it on instinct

 

[FreoMonocle]

This year, we throw in Hogan and a fit Taberner. All of a sudden McCarthy gets a nuffy defender & the n1 goes to Hogan. Taberner runs his man off the chain & we move Mundy & Walters out of i50 back into the midfield to deliver the ball & Matera plays deep forward again which is his perfect position. With Mundy Hill & Walters kicking i50 we have a lot more opportunity to score. Last year all 3 of them weren’t in the mid (hill injured).

Tabs got the #1 defender in the GWS match (Davis), broke his nose too. Can't remember the matchups in the other games, but I thought Tabs has had the bulk of the attention so far.

 

[Fat Nyfe]

It’s never as good or as bad as it seems.

So the season is young. The benchmark remains 10 wins.


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He really needs to win about half our games at least for a pass mark imo.

Pass mark should be finals. That doesn’t mean the sky is falling in or Ross gets the sack if it’s not a pass, but Ross and the club should be openly disappointed if we miss finals, not patting each other on the back for hitting some arbitrary win mark. Not accepting mediocrity and all that.

 

[theGav56]

I don't overly care about the pass mark for this year. Progress with the players, the structures, the game plan should be the focus, and while that may be reflected in win/loss, it can also be derailed by injuries. Plus, I would prefer the club to sacrifice win/loss for development, especially in the first 2/3s of the season. If we are looking like finals prospects, then go hard for the wins. I think the pass mark is all about 2020, which is also what the club has previously talked about.

 

[Square Peg]

Are you serious? We've played more youngsters than anyone in recent years and turned over 80% of the list in a short period of time. Picking youngsters when they're not ready hurts a players development, it doesnt help. Simply playing players at afl level doesnt magically make them better. In fact someone like Giro is better off working at things at wafl level until he develops a bit more consistently by foot. The reason why Carlton and Gold Coast have been down for so long isnt because they didnt play youngsters. Its because they played too many youngsters before they were ready. Danyle Pearce played because there wasnt another youngster close to ready by Round 1 2018. Cerra had only just started training and Crowden (probably the closest to being ready youngster not selected) had hardly set the world on fire that preseason. Tucker benefited from playing a few games at WAFL last year. The idea that you have to play every young player to be rebuilding is absurd.

Danyle played for the same reason Zac D played 2017. For the reasons Lyon has always said - his dual narrative of restump not rebuild and starting each season trying to win as many games as he can with his tried and true players and methods to take the heat off himself. I accept it and understand it even if I don't agree with it. Why are people now trying to pretend it was different from what it was is my only point. You really do fly off the handle mate, try and calm down.

 

[Fred Ziffel]

That's a pretty convenient argument, so essentially all future successes can be attributed else where, whereas all failure attributed directly to Lyon so your precognitions can remain safely unchallenged regardless of outcome. It seemed pretty obvious to me at the time that carrying a hampered Darcy who was not playing his best in what was already a fairly tall and immobile team allowed GC to outrun us at the end. I think we've learned from that and dropped Cox for McCarthey for sake of balance. With so many good talls we want to play, we'll sometimes run into the danger of being tempted to play too many.

And it may even be possible that Lyon is a hack coach where the rule changes and our new forward line simply makes who the coach is inconsequential, we seem to have such a strongly positioned team where failure seems like a very hard thing to do. But it would be disingenuous to make this type of argument and then not also apply the same logic to when Lyon was in charge of a fairly uncompetitive list in 2018 still young and developing.

How do you dismiss playing 8 men in the backline ? We were 19 points up in that final quarter and the coach resorted to his default option.
I’m happy to cop that loss if it was the price for what we are now seeing.
I wrote on my disappointment of the coach’s plan of using an undermanned forward line. He has been doing it since 2016 and I am ****ing sick of it. So too, has Ross’ new boss . That is my essentially my argument.
I don’t bag anyone involved with Freo including coaches, managers and especially players.
However , that does not diminish my feeling of helplessness with what I have seen from Ross since 2015.
I like Ross for the change in our professionalism. Ross has clearly had a positive impact on this club.
That does not mean his intransigence is acceptable.
That is my argument. His new boss has intervened.
Ross will now get the credit ; I am happy for that to happen.
I have been disappointed with him over the past 3 years but I have never said that on this site although I could have.
From now on I will attribute wins to Ross. I had the right to blame him for losses because of what I wrote about above; it was my prerogative and I chose to be silent.

 

[Bicco]

I don't overly care about the pass mark for this year. Progress with the players, the structures, the game plan should be the focus, and while that may be reflected in win/loss, it can also be derailed by injuries. Plus, I would prefer the club to sacrifice win/loss for development, especially in the first 2/3s of the season. If we are looking like finals prospects, then go hard for the wins. I think the pass mark is all about 2020, which is also what the club has previously talked about.

Id love for us to finish 7 or 8th. Have a final in Melbourne against a big club to really teach the guys about finals pressure. Maybe jag a win or two while we're there. Get these boys battle hardened.

 

[theGav56]

Id love for us to finish 7 or 8th. Have a final in Melbourne against a big club to really teach the guys about finals pressure. Maybe jag a win or two while we're there. Get these boys battle hardened.

Excellent plan! Playing finals would be a terrific way to forge the team for the future.Give them self belief. Send them off into the break knowing they need to come back in top condition ready for the battle from day 1.

 

[jedi mind tricks]

Whatever happened to Azzlandia?

He changed his profile name and moved to Darwin. No idea after that. He always wore purple pants. Was funny

 

[kingswood71]

Has anyone watched ANY other Gold Coast and St Kilda games. There is a reason we struggled to score those games and the games were a cluster**** (we also didnt turn up against GC but thats against the point).

These teams are playing the way we have always been criticised of playing, they clog it up and force a shit fight more than any other teams this year. Now you could make an argument the guys should have been able to stick to the game plan we saw in the other three weeks but unfortunately, other teams try to stop you playing the way you like, and kudos to them, they did on those days through a mixture of positioning and relentless pressure (Saints pressure is undoubtedly number 1 this year).

We played exactly how we wanted too against North, WC and GWS. North are shit with almost zero pressure so the skills were high. West Coast are an extremely experienced, skilled and cohesive unit and our finishing was off so we didnt get it all our way and kicked ourselves out of the game. We played our best game of the season to date against GWS with a high skill level in the face of a very good team.

There should be zero doubts the gameplan has changed, its now about making sure its good enough to take us the distance and can be drilled into the guys well enough that they do it on instinct

excellent analysis snuffy
Yes, we could easily have been 5 and 0 if we had kicked straighter....

 

[malpaso]

How do you dismiss playing 8 men in the backline ? We were 19 points up in that final quarter and the coach resorted to his default option.
I’m happy to cop that loss if it was the price for what we are now seeing.
I wrote on my disappointment of the coach’s plan of using an undermanned forward line. He has been doing it since 2016 and I am ******* sick of it. So too, has Ross’ new boss . That is my essentially my argument.
I don’t bag anyone involved with Freo including coaches, managers and especially players.
However , that does not diminish my feeling of helplessness with what I have seen from Ross since 2015.
I like Ross for the change in our professionalism. Ross has clearly had a positive impact on this club.
That does not mean his intransigence is acceptable.
That is my argument. His new boss has intervened.
Ross will now get the credit ; I am happy for that to happen.
I have been disappointed with him over the past 3 years but I have never said that on this site although I could have.
From now on I will attribute wins to Ross. I had the right to blame him for losses because of what I wrote about above; it was my prerogative and I chose to be silent.

Crap post, we were changing the game plan before his 'new' boss was in place as evidenced by our recruiting. We had very little KPF stocks since 2015 thru lack of recruitment, age/retirement and injury.

 

[tacopavlich]

I wrote on my disappointment of the coach’s plan of using an undermanned forward line. He has been doing it since 2016 and I am ******* sick of it. So too, has Ross’ new boss . That is my essentially my argument.

You're welcome to think that but it isn't actually an argument because it's not a falsifiable statement. An argument line where the conclusion cannot be disproved doesn't make for great discourse. You've shared your views and I've shared mine. Since 2016 we've had objectively the worst forward line in the league, regardless of what the coach did or didn't do.

 

[theGav56]

Since 2016 we've had objectively the worst forward line in the league, regardless of what the coach did or didn't do.

End of season where will we be rated I wonder. Likely top 8 imo. Potential top 4.

 

[Farrand]

I could see Ross’s game plan evolving the last year and a half, we just didn’t have the tall timber or mid skills to execute it. Now that’s not to say are skills are all the way there, I think we need a lot more work in fact, but having the tall targets has made us so much better.

Last year as soon as Taberner went down, we struggled to score so Ross went defensive again, he had to to stop the beltings. Didn’t always work obv.

This year, we throw in Hogan and a fit Taberner. All of a sudden McCarthy gets a nuffy defender & the n1 goes to Hogan. Taberner runs his man off the chain & we move Mundy & Walters out of i50 back into the midfield to deliver the ball & Matera plays deep forward again which is his perfect position. With Mundy Hill & Walters kicking i50 we have a lot more opportunity to score. Last year all 3 of them weren’t in the mid (hill injured).

I look forward to Blakely slotting back in & hopefully Darcy gets back in as well. Stephen Hill probably fit 2nd half. Would like us to try the super tall forward line again.

Brayshaw & Cerra’s skills have been down this year, but they’ll come on strong before the end of the year.

Seems to me to be a confidence thing with Brayshaw. As said previously, it does effect your confidence getting injured on field by thuggish behaviour. I had my front teeth knocked out playing rugby by an errant kick (put them back in myself like a champ) and it definitely effected my play for a bit.

Anyway, it's almost natural for players to have the second year blues as they struggle to find their feet in the team. It's rare when you get a player who has a great first season and continues the ascent consistently. These guys aren't the new boys anymore and aren't getting the same focus that the first year players get, the expectations are slightly heavier and psychologically they desire to back up their first year form which can be a difficult thing to deal with. Third year is when these two will be settled and aware of what they provide.

 

[Joao]

You're welcome to think that but it isn't actually an argument because it's not a falsifiable statement. An argument line where the conclusion cannot be disproved doesn't make for great discourse. You've shared your views and I've shared mine. Since 2016 we've had objectively the worst forward line in the league, regardless of what the coach did or didn't do.

This post made me wonder, what if there was a logic expert moderating big footy who would analyse every post and could disqualify arguments based on logic. 99/100 posts would be disqualified for being a non-sequitur, strawman, non-falsifiable etc.

Would be hilarious, especially in the melt thread.

 

[Fred Ziffel]

You're welcome to think that but it isn't actually an argument because it's not a falsifiable statement. An argument line where the conclusion cannot be disproved doesn't make for great discourse. You've shared your views and I've shared mine. Since 2016 we've had objectively the worst forward line in the league, regardless of what the coach did or didn't do.

I agree , we have had arguably the worst forward line in the league for a few years and yet Ross persisted with 5 or less forwards.
My view is basically; no matter the calibre of the players, not playing with fewer players than your opponent is better than being outnumbered continually. 6 is better than 5.
Anyway it may well be moot now. I hope so.

 

[theGav56]

I agree , we have had arguably the worst forward line in the league for a few years and yet Ross persisted with 5 or less forwards.
My view is basically; no matter the calibre of the players, not playing with fewer players than your opponent is better than being outnumbered continually. 6 is better than 5.
Anyway it may well be moot now. I hope so.

It just seems totally transparent that there was a plan to put the new defence in place, develop the midfield, then build the forward line. There is a logic to it, and it does seem to have worked (early days).

 

[Midnite65]

Excellent plan! Playing finals would be a terrific way to forge the team for the future.Give them self belief. Send them off into the break knowing they need to come back in top condition ready for the battle from day 1.

That strategy hasn't really worked for Melbourne this year though?

 

[theGav56]

That strategy hasn't really worked for Melbourne this year though?

True. But we have a coach who has done it before. Big difference.

 

[Kram]

That strategy hasn't really worked for Melbourne this year though?

Of course not, Melbourne are bruise free downhill skiers that cheaply traded away their best forward.

 

[sherrif]

Danyle played for the same reason Zac D played 2017. For the reasons Lyon has always said - his dual narrative of restump not rebuild and starting each season trying to win as many games as he can with his tried and true players and methods to take the heat off himself. I accept it and understand it even if I don't agree with it. Why are people now trying to pretend it was different from what it was is my only point. You really do fly off the handle mate, try and calm down.

You seem to consistently have the view that everyone's entitled to an opinion unless it disagrees with yours. Not sure how I fly off the handle by presenting a view thats different to an opposing opinion. I dont think Ross selected Danyle to take the heat off himself. I think he was selected at that point because the likes of Crowden benefited more from playing at WAFL level than afl level and being 'throne to the wolves 'so to speak like so many Carlton and Gold Coast youngsters have in recent times doesnt work. The whole belief Ross selects a handful of senior players to take the heat of himself is absurd in my view considering how many youngsters we'e played in recent times.

 

[Square Peg]

You seem to consistently have the view that everyone's entitled to an opinion unless it disagrees with yours. Not sure how I fly off the handle by presenting a view thats different to an opposing opinion. I dont think Ross selected Danyle to take the heat off himself. I think he was selected at that point because the likes of Crowden benefited more from playing at WAFL level than afl level and being 'throne to the wolves 'so to speak like so many Carlton and Gold Coast youngsters have in recent times doesnt work. The whole belief Ross selects a handful of senior players to take the heat of himself is absurd in my view considering how many youngsters we'e played in recent times.

I'm not sure either of us want to go back through the earlier pages of this thread and others over the last few years, so on the topic of Ross and his teams and thought processes I'm happy to agree to disagree.

 

[kingswood71]

Just a question...has any player, any time, ever said a bad word about Ross?...
All I can find is a lot of love, respect and thanks....
Maybe the players know something

 

[sherrif]

Coach Lyon’s insistence for years of having a five man forward line tipped me against him. When you add to it one of the five was Chris Mayne who is on record for saying he would prefer to tackle than kick a goal, that then falls squarely on the coach’s shoulders.
Of course seasons were punctuated with the occasional win and ironically the feature which made those wins stand out was that the coach used a six man structure. I recall in 2016, a nightmare season, two memorable wins one of which was against Brisbane, where the six man forward line got the job done.
Now, I think whether or not you have a star studded front six or not is not as important as refraining from handicapping them by playing one fewer or indeed as is Coach Lyon’s wont, even less than five.
I hated our final campaign of 2018 against Collingwood. At three quarter time that game was Fremantle’s. The game was set up beautifully for an unlikely win; all we needed to do was give ourselves the best chance, but, no that is not how Ross does things.
Coach Lyon went beyond accepted standards of reasonable coaching tactics; he started the fourth quarter with three men in the forward line.
I don’t believe any reasonable argument can be mounted that six, even“C” graded players, isn’t preferable to three.

Of course there may be other reasons why a coach doesn’t give his side the best opportunity but, in the final game against Collingwood, I couldn’t work out what it may have been.
That loss to Collingwood so disheartened me. I was off my club. I’d had enough of this coach’s bullshit.

Then something really weird happened. The rules were changed where Coach Lyon is now forced to have six players inside the forward 50 metre arc. Right, I’m back on board. That will fix him.
Don’t get ahead of ourselves. There’s fine print. The coach can get the six players out of there straight after the centre bounce, and so it was.... come round two, after a very impressive season opener we meet Gold Coast and had what appeared to be an excellent chance to open with two wins. Indeed, at three quarter time we looked to have the game in our hands. Now, I was only watching on television and I am bloody certain I saw eight players in our backline within seconds of a centre bounce down in the last quarter. That is fully compliant with the new rules but for senior coach Lyon , where there’s a will there’s a way. Like you all on here, I was stunned with that loss. Bitter even.

This is going to take a particular intervention to fix. That is what I believe has happened.
I am convinced an individual at Fremantle Football club has approached our senior coach and stated “ I set about procuring the best attainable key forwards I could “ ; “ Now stop this ******* bullshit”.

For now I am back onboard with the coach albeit, with someone in the background issuing directives.
I have always had a high regard for the little fella, just not as a footballer.
As for Ross Lyon, I hope he continues to follow orders.
It matters little who is pulling the strings. If we have six high calibre forwards, they should be played there.

Agree with this. The 6-6-6 man rule was the best thing to happen to freo in a long time and we were forced to change. The Gold Coast loss the most disappointing loss in a very long time as well. My view is that it is we need to make or be close to finals for Ross to see out his contract.

 

[sherrif]

I'm not sure either of us want to go back through the earlier pages of this thread and others over the last few years, so on the topic of Ross and his teams and thought processes I'm happy to agree to disagree.

As a way of truce. All Im saying is that playing players who arent ready and then putting them straight into afl after they were only playing underage footy the year before hurts their development in my view. Hence my view on the round 1 selections in recent times isnt about Ross looking after his own interests.