List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

Is Ross still the man for the job?

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Scham said:
I wonder what percentage of first round picks turn out to be top players though?

And the way you’re putting it, it’s as if we just didn’t have a first round pick for 7 years whereas we actually did in some of those years. Ross has full use of Weller and Sheridan. So really if we’re talking about 2016 and using the “50 game rule” then it was really 2009 - 2013 that Ross truly suffered from. 1 hit from 5 attempts! That would have to be below industry average, but hey, back then we were the no excuses football club.

The poor first round record can also somewhat be balanced by the great later picks in Fyfe, Blakely and Neale.
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But a lot of clubs will have a hit with lower picks, many turn out to play 100+ games (some play 300+). They allow for the occasional flaw with early picks. They shouldn't be the core of a team, otherwise you end up with an underskilled team that gets exposed by the better teams.
 
Just watched the highlights of elimination final, hawks v Freo. So many younguns. Walters playing his 7th game, and heaps of inexperienced players, but by god they were exciting. I want to get back to that, and that won’t be with Lyon
 
Becky2Belts said:
All of this stems from buying the rebuild line. We set the curve, so to say we’re “ahead of the curve” is to say we’re performing better than we’d thought we would. To that I say aim higher.

West Coast “rebuilt” quicker. They finished sixth and didn’t win a final in 2016. They were 12-10 in 2017 with an aging list. They went hell for leather to keep their window open with Petrie and Mitchell coming in. Old list. Trending backwards. Worse each season after their 2015 GF. It looked like they were about to enter a world of hurt.

Then last year they debuted nine new players and won a flag. They didn’t bottom out to rebuild, they didn’t gut the list. They were projected to be bottom four but didn’t set the target of “hey let’s win a few games and make sure we don’t finish bottom four”, they retooled on the fly.

The Bulldogs won a flag in the second year of their new coach. Sydney won a flag in the second year of their new coach. The Eagles made a Grand final in the second year of their new coach. Adelaide made the Grand Final in their second year of a new coach. Melbourne made a prelim in the second year of their new coach. Brisbane are sitting top four in the third year of their new coach.

We decide the direction our list goes, nobody inherits the 2019 Fremantle list and says ok in a vacuum how many games should this squad win. We decided to go down the complete rebuild road, we sold it to the fans that this is a necessary pain, when it has been proven by Sydney and Hawthorn and West Coast and Geelong that it isn’t. So sure, we might be “ahead of the curve” (I don’t think we are, but let’s go with it), but never forget we are in complete control of the curve. The club decides every facet of their future, don’t buy this hard luck story about oh gee we’re a young rebuilding side. We’re rebuilding because it was decided we’d rebuild, and three and a half years later here we are, circle jerking over the prospect of maybe winning not quite half of our games.
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I notice you didn't answer the main point of my post - in the example I gave in reply to you stating we should reset our goals, I advised why we shouldn't and gave you an example and asked if you would be happy in that situation? Please answer.

What you have done is to change the discussion and basis of your argument. Then you have used clubs in a vastly different position to make an argument and glossed over some major details to do so. Let's use WCE for one - finish sixth - all key players still in prime or entering prime. Calling that a rebuild is folly and used to support an argument that resounds of cognitive dissonance. Sydney? Really? Still had a spine in it's prime, had free agency and has the academy. They also went through a rebuild missing the 8 for a few years before building to the 2012 team. How someone can agree with an argument because it backs their bias is beyond me... conflating coaching change with list position is crazy. Apart from the premiership - part of why Roos was so well regarded was the 3-4 season rebuild and planned the transition to Longmire. He left the club with grace and in a strong position to contend.

WB - again conflating coaching change and not acknowledging the rebuild from 3rd in 2010 to 1oth, 15th, 15th and 14th.. but yes there was no rebuild at all...

How is one in complete control of the curve? If the curve is an aggregate of how well clubs who undertake a rebuild perform how can one club control the curve? They can control their actions but not the curve. I get the intent of what you are saying but no one can control the 'curve'. You are correct in saying the club decides their future. The rest of your argument is completely nonsensical and only something one could 'like' or agree with to fit their enraged, lacking perspective pov.

Back to the questions in the actual argument and away from conflation to suit yours.. Would you be happy having goals changed by an employer if you were the employee?

It is clear that each of the clubs you mentioned did, in fact, go through seasons of rebuilding. Change of coach doesn't change list make up. Conflating the two may be interpreted as trying to push a position of changing coach to suit your argument or agenda.
 

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raffrox said:
I think the curve we set reflects that we have a history of under performing. 15 out of 24 seasons with less than half our games won. It's a stat that isn't embraced compared to other stats in this thread for some odd reason.

We seem happier than most teams just being sort of close enough.
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Who sets the curve? Really strange post mate.

the 'Curve' as I mentioned is looking at teams in a rebuild and time in rebuild to a point of achieving results. That isn't set by anyone. Make sense?

People change terms to suit their argument.

If you are saying that being ahead of that curve at ten wins isn't acceptable - fine. We do not set the curve,
 
Bring back Drum said:
Really good post.
The key word in this post is development. The development dept/program at Freo is as poor as it comes. Not only draft recruits, but players from other clubs recruited in. Hardly any of those recruits have got better coming into the club where others leave & flourish.

Brayshaw, Cerra, Crowden, Darcy, Banfield & others have not shown any improvement at all from last year & then take McCarthy, Kersten & to a lesser extent Wilson & Colyer have not offered anything further than what they did at other clubs. Which for Colyer & Kersten was bugger all.

There is far too much reliance on the older players, with that proven with the inclusion of an underdone Sandilands & the dropping of Crowden instead of the likes of Colyer. Why Ballantyne was kept on this season is beyond a joke as there was another 4 small forwards ready to go.

This was obviously the call from all Saints supporters when Lyon was brought across & there is little evidence to prove this wrong. He just doesn’t trust the young players & it appears they can feel it & are lacking confidence at this level.

I strongly believe that this lack of development includes his assistant coaches. The great coaches of the last 15 years have developed great assistants who have gone on to coach their own teams. This is the difference between great coaches like Clarkson & Roos compared to Lyon.

Most of Lyons assistants have moved on in silence because there were issues between coach & assistant.

How can this be good for team harmony? He is arrogant, pig headed & verging on a charlatan, in particular his various pressers this week where his arrogance has reached a new high.

Any thoughts? Harsh/fair?
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Drum was the worst ever AFL coach. You are taking the piss or a troll
 
Becky2Belts said:
Yeah I did, but that only serves my point more. There is evidence time and time again of a fresh approach rejuvenating a list and helping them achieve great things. Freo, Sydney, west coast, Melbourne, Bulldogs, Adelaide, Brisbane. Add Collingwood to the list, in a Grand Final two years after overhauling their footy department.

I have no personal issue with Ross. I thank him for his contributions to the club, helping us turn the corner into a true flag contender for the first time in club history. Fremantle had the respect (and fear) of the football world for longer than we’d ever had before, in no small part thanks to Ross Lyon directly. Once again, unequivocally, Ross Lyon was a great figure in the history of the Fremantle Football Club, and clearly our best ever coach.

His time is up. In my opinion, this brand of football is not going to help us get to a flag any time soon, it’s just not damaging enough. I thank him, but every coach runs their course, and I think his eight years at the helm are enough.

This is not an “I hate Ross Lyon” issue. I respect what he did for us. As with all things, sadly, it’s time to move on.
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Oh you thank Ross do you? FMD you people.
 
poshman said:
I notice you didn't answer the main point of my post - in the example I gave in reply to you stating we should reset our goals, I advised why we shouldn't and gave you an example and asked if you would be happy in that situation? Please answer.

What you have done is to change the discussion and basis of your argument. Then you have used clubs in a vastly different position to make an argument and glossed over some major details to do so. Let's use WCE for one - finish sixth - all key players still in prime or entering prime. Calling that a rebuild is folly and used to support an argument that resounds of cognitive dissonance. Sydney? Really? Still had a spine in it's prime, had free agency and has the academy. They also went through a rebuild missing the 8 for a few years before building to the 2012 team. How someone can agree with an argument because it backs their bias is beyond me... conflating coaching change with list position is crazy. Apart from the premiership - part of why Roos was so well regarded was the 3-4 season rebuild and planned the transition to Longmire. He left the club with grace and in a strong position to contend.

WB - again conflating coaching change and not acknowledging the rebuild from 3rd in 2010 to 1oth, 15th, 15th and 14th.. but yes there was no rebuild at all...

How is one in complete control of the curve? If the curve is an aggregate of how well clubs who undertake a rebuild perform how can one club control the curve? They can control their actions but not the curve. I get the intent of what you are saying but no one can control the 'curve'. You are correct in saying the club decides their future. The rest of your argument is completely nonsensical and only something one could 'like' or agree with to fit their enraged, lacking perspective pov.

Back to the questions in the actual argument and away from conflation to suit yours.. Would you be happy having goals changed by an employer if you were the employee?

It is clear that each of the clubs you mentioned did, in fact, go through seasons of rebuilding. Change of coach doesn't change list make up. Conflating the two may be interpreted as trying to push a position of changing coach to suit your argument or agenda.
Click to expand...
I didn’t answer your question because it’s irrelevant to the situation. A regular place of business is not the same as a sporting team.

In your hypothetical, no i would not be happy with the changing of goals costing me money.

In the sporting land scape, goals work differently and have to be more fluid, particularly when it comes to rapid improvement. Let’s say our goal for the year was 10 wins. Let’s say we start the year 10-0. Do you think the club shouldn’t revise the goals upwards at that point? Do you think a season split into a 10-0 run, sitting first at round 10, and closing with a 0-12 run, missing the finals, would be deemed a success? Our original goal was 10 wins, so tick the box yes we’re happy with how the season played out?

Also while we’re shooting down the many many many options I gave as not relevant, what about this one. West coast 2010, wooden spoon. West coast 2011, prelim. Keen to hear why that doesn’t count.
 
mayne iac said:
Oh you thank Ross do you? FMD you people.
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What have I done wrong now? I’m pointing out I don’t hate Ross, quite the opposite, he has been our best coach and should be remembered very fondly as giving us a much needed winning edge for the first time. I’m saying my wanting Freo to succeed is more important than any one person, and at this stage I don’t think Ross is the right guy to take us forward. He’s a club legend and should be remembered well.

I’m not sure what I’ve done there that’s an issue, or what “you people” is referring to?
 
Bring back Drum said:
Really good post.
The key word in this post is development. The development dept/program at Freo is as poor as it comes. Not only draft recruits, but players from other clubs recruited in. Hardly any of those recruits have got better coming into the club where others leave & flourish.

Brayshaw, Cerra, Crowden, Darcy, Banfield & others have not shown any improvement at all from last year & then take McCarthy, Kersten & to a lesser extent Wilson & Colyer have not offered anything further than what they did at other clubs. Which for Colyer & Kersten was bugger all.

There is far too much reliance on the older players, with that proven with the inclusion of an underdone Sandilands & the dropping of Crowden instead of the likes of Colyer. Why Ballantyne was kept on this season is beyond a joke as there was another 4 small forwards ready to go.

This was obviously the call from all Saints supporters when Lyon was brought across & there is little evidence to prove this wrong. He just doesn’t trust the young players & it appears they can feel it & are lacking confidence at this level.

I strongly believe that this lack of development includes his assistant coaches. The great coaches of the last 15 years have developed great assistants who have gone on to coach their own teams. This is the difference between great coaches like Clarkson & Roos compared to Lyon.

Most of Lyons assistants have moved on in silence because there were issues between coach & assistant.

How can this be good for team harmony? He is arrogant, pig headed & verging on a charlatan, in particular his various pressers this week where his arrogance has reached a new high.

Any thoughts? Harsh/fair?
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Not fair on Brayshaw, he's been one of our best mids this year. Cerra has changed position this year. Darcy has only played a few games and dominated port, one of the best games for a young ruckman that I have seen. Wilson??? You have got to be kidding. He's been a lot better than last year.

Where were all of you white ants 3 weeks ago when most real experts were calling us the most exciting team in the afl so far this year. 3 weeks in a row we had the top 3 games played this year that was according to gerard whateley, who frikken HATES us. Bloody hell, THREE weeks ago Jon Brown called us the best team in the west. The rats are jumping ship, get off, go, you all can beat it. So sick of supporters with nasty motives.
 
Becky2Belts said:
I didn’t answer your question because it’s irrelevant to the situation. A regular place of business is not the same as a sporting team.

In your hypothetical, no i would not be happy with the changing of goals costing me money.

In the sporting land scape, goals work differently and have to be more fluid, particularly when it comes to rapid improvement. Let’s say our goal for the year was 10 wins. Let’s say we start the year 10-0. Do you think the club shouldn’t revise the goals upwards at that point? Do you think a season split into a 10-0 run, sitting first at round 10, and closing with a 0-12 run, missing the finals, would be deemed a success? Our original goal was 10 wins, so tick the box yes we’re happy with how the season played out?

Also while we’re shooting down the many many many options I gave as not relevant, what about this one. West coast 2010, wooden spoon. West coast 2011, prelim. Keen to hear why that doesn’t count.
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So you wouldn't be happy with changing goals on you but want to apply it to others...

If the preseason goal was 10 wins and we hit it in your scenario we would have achieved the goal. My happiness or otherwise would not come into it. I would want a review into what happened in the last half of the year although the scenario you are offering is unprecedented (I think so therefore incredibly unlikely). the scenario I offered is a fairly regular occurrence.

Secondly, Football is a business. So it should be treated as one. Goal setting throughout the business and other arenas relies on the same principles. Principles by nature dont change depending on circumstance. That is why principles are important, they are not circumstantial.

WCE example - you are correct they finished that season in the prelim. Very simple answer (in fact question) to a stupid argument. How did they go in the three seasons prior?

Cognitive dissonance....
 
Becky2Belts said:
What have I done wrong now? I’m pointing out I don’t hate Ross, quite the opposite, he has been our best coach and should be remembered very fondly as giving us a much needed winning edge for the first time. I’m saying my wanting Freo to succeed is more important than any one person, and at this stage I don’t think Ross is the right guy to take us forward. He’s a club legend and should be remembered well.

I’m not sure what I’ve done there that’s an issue, or what “you people” is referring to?
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Sorry, I'm just getting tired of all of this.
 

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poshman said:
So you wouldn't be happy with changing goals on you but want to apply it to others...

If the preseason goal was 10 wins and we hit it in your scenario we would have achieved the goal. My happiness or otherwise would not come into it. I would want a review into what happened in the last half of the year although the scenario you are offering is unprecedented (I think so therefore incredibly unlikely). the scenario I offered is a fairly regular occurrence.

Secondly, Football is a business. So it should be treated as one. Goal setting throughout the business and other arenas relies on the same principles. Principles by nature dont change depending on circumstance. That is why principles are important, they are not circumstantial.

WCE example - you are correct they finished that season in the prelim. Very simple answer (in fact question) to a stupid argument. How did they go in the three seasons prior?

Cognitive dissonance....
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No i wouldn’t be happy changing goals in a corporate environment on anyone but am happy doing it in a sporting environment because that’s how it works.

If you go into a game as 100 point underdogs but are up by 60 points at half time, you can reasonably change your goals to “let’s win this game”. Similarly, when you’re on the receiving end of a beat down, you can change the goal to “let’s win this quarter” because goal setting in sport can be much more fluid than in the real world. You’re being deliberately obtuse with this, you know full well what my point is.

Like I said, if your goal is 10 wins and you start the season 10-0, then go 0-12 and miss finals, you wouldn’t be happy you hit your 10 win target. You just wouldn’t.

Rebuilds take time, this I know, but Eagles being bad for two years then in a prelim (a year after winning the spoon) proves that some clubs refuse to stay down for long and others know they can get away with it.

This has gone so off the Ross Lyon topic so if you have any more deliberately derailing questions or more word games with me, ask in another thread please.

“Ross Lyon is struggling, I think his time is up.”
“Well of course he’s struggling, look at our list and our rebuild”
“Ok but he’s not developing our list well and it’s his call to put us in a rebuild”
“This isn’t a list management and rebuilding thread, please keep on topic.”

Playing bullshit games, it’s fairly ridiculous.
 
Becky2Belts said:
No i wouldn’t be happy changing goals in a corporate environment on anyone but am happy doing it in a sporting environment because that’s how it works.

If you go into a game as 100 point underdogs but are up by 60 points at half time, you can reasonably change your goals to “let’s win this game”. Similarly, when you’re on the receiving end of a beat down, you can change the goal to “let’s win this quarter” because goal setting in sport can be much more fluid than in the real world. You’re being deliberately obtuse with this, you know full well what my point is.

Like I said, if your goal is 10 wins and you start the season 10-0, then go 0-12 and miss finals, you wouldn’t be happy you hit your 10 win target. You just wouldn’t.

Rebuilds take time, this I know, but Eagles being bad for two years then in a prelim (a year after winning the spoon) proves that some clubs refuse to stay down for long and others know they can get away with it.

This has gone so off the Ross Lyon topic so if you have any more deliberately derailing questions or more word games with me, ask in another thread please.

“Ross Lyon is struggling, I think his time is up.”
“Well of course he’s struggling, look at our list and our rebuild”
“Ok but he’s not developing our list well and it’s his call to put us in a rebuild”
“This isn’t a list management and rebuilding thread, please keep on topic.”

Playing bulls**t games, it’s fairly ridiculous.
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Answer the question - the eagles had three horrendous years before heading back up the ladder. So you went from one year 'look at what they did in one year' BS to suit your argument. Now it is two years. It was three horrendous years and even then they rebuilt ahead of the curve.

This is exactly on topic - you cry word games when called out on exactly what you have said. People here are saying Ross should go because the rebuild is a fail and then had issue with ten wins as a solid target for the season. Now when you can't establish a solid, factual argument for your case you cry word games and want another thread.

Regarding Goals - so now you are taking season long goals in footy terms = medium to long term. And applying short or incremental goal setting principles against them. You would not like long term goals changed on you in a business sense but would like short to incremental goals applied to you.

So if you were an employee who had 12 months to reach a goal but had one bad day or two bad days you would be more than happy with being let go without notice?

Your arguments are incoherent and when challenged on the exact words you say you cry 'word games' .. I would have thought the one playing word games was the one saying one thing, then claiming he meant another. Fair?
 

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List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

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