List Mgmt. Round 1, 2015 Full strength team

[POBT]

When you play 2 proper rucks, you need to work out what you are prepared to sacrifice to fit them in. If you don't play one as a forward, you effectively lose one running player.

Playing Martin as a midfielder to Leuenberger also has the knock on effect of denying another midfielder time in the midfield. There is only so many midfield spots to go around.

So the question is as much about what you lose as what you gain. IMO, I'd rather not lose out through the midfield. If that means accepting as lesser option up forward, then so be it.

 

[SizeMatters]

When you play 2 proper rucks, you need to work out what you are prepared to sacrifice to fit them in. If you don't play one as a forward, you effectively lose one running player.

Playing Martin as a midfielder to Leuenberger also has the knock on effect of denying another midfielder time in the midfield. There is only so many midfield spots to go around.

So the question is as much about what you lose as what you gain. IMO, I'd rather not lose out through the midfield. If that means accepting as lesser option up forward, then so be it.

Good point.

 

[Robbo18!]

I'd have Taylor sub over Mayes

For the wing position is have Mayes over Aish. Mayes is stronger, taller, quicker and just as game savy.

 

[Milux]

Solution is round 23 last year.

Martin played on ball, rested in defence, then to the ruck, then to the bench.

Leuey played #1 ruck and rested on the bench.

Worked well.

100%

 

[Bert Man]

Solution is round 23 last year.

Martin played on ball, rested in defence, then to the ruck, then to the bench.

Leuey played #1 ruck and rested on the bench.

Worked well.

Don't forget that brilliant mark up forward.

 

[chopperduck]

Considering our smaller younger yet to fill out completely KPFs, id like to have a Martin or Bergs up forward just as a big target. At worse they can bring the ball to ground and maybe soak up a defender to help freeman and/or Close with their match up.

Martin roving Bergs at the center square is a good novelty, and i dont mind it for a bounce or two to throw out the other teams set ups, but considering the talent we now have in the midfield, id much rather have Redden, Hanley, Beams, Rocky, Rich, Zorko in the middle over Stef.

Stef didnt get a good run up forward. In career best form, i think he can do some damage up forward if given a chance. Wont be the elite KPF we need, but certainly a solid option.

 

[EskiBro]

When you play 2 proper rucks, you need to work out what you are prepared to sacrifice to fit them in. If you don't play one as a forward, you effectively lose one running player.

Playing Martin as a midfielder to Leuenberger also has the knock on effect of denying another midfielder time in the midfield. There is only so many midfield spots to go around.

So the question is as much about what you lose as what you gain. IMO, I'd rather not lose out through the midfield. If that means accepting as lesser option up forward, then so be it.

Yes, Martin is a proper ruck, but IMO, he is also very capable of being a proper midfielder.

I still only named two KPFs (Close and Staker) with McStay on the bench as a swingman tall. Given most teams play three tall forwards, we've got a lot more run in the HFF area (Green, Taylor, Zorko and Christo). Martin can still push forward with the play and contest, I just don't like him leading up at the ball (or Leuey for that matter, but I don't really liking him pushing forward with the play either).

If we play Martin midfield, we don't actually lose a lot as far as run is concerned, but gain a lot in the air. He averaged 22 disposals, that's only one less than Jack Redden and they weren't always around the stoppage either, he got them running on the wings as part of a chain of handballs a lot and providing a marking target.

I wish we had a larger sample size than one game, but you just don't get 32 poss as a 2nd ruck if you can't play midfield.

We'll probably try a few different structures, this one is easily my favourite.

 

[The Zork]

Deep stay at home back pocket is still an issue for me and one where we can be exposed on occasion against your betts, ballentines etc. Harwoods toughness but suspect leg? Adcocks leadership but ageing body? Golbys...? Claye Beams?

 

[Happy_Neale]

I did not like the Martin midfield experiment. He got flat out destroyed on the spread not surprisingly. I don't think he has the burst speed to go with a full-time mid but don't mind him as a forward/ruck.

 

[Lace Out]

Deep stay at home back pocket is still an issue for me and one where we can be exposed on occasion against your betts, ballentines etc. Harwoods toughness but suspect leg? Adcocks leadership but ageing body? Golbys...? Claye Beams?

It's looking like C.Beams will be used as a small forward lockdown and kicker-outerer(hallelujah).C.Beams is yet to have a opportunity to settle into any semblance of a regular position with injury interruptions and varied teams structures when he has come back to play.I can see him racking up Patfull type B and F vote numbers once he gets going.

 

[POBT]

I did not like the Martin midfield experiment. He got flat out destroyed on the spread not surprisingly. I don't think he has the burst speed to go with a full-time mid but don't mind him as a forward/ruck.

He also has the ball use and decision making of, well, a ruckman.

I don't mind it necessarily as a change up. But I think we'll struggle to manage our rotations without putting either/both ruckmen up forward for times during the game

 

[piari]

If we play Martin midfield, we don't actually lose a lot as far as run is concerned, but gain a lot in the air.


I will never forget Brownie going into the centre square and saying "OK who is on me?" Brilliant tactic as the opposition retreated as a whole.

Worked pretty well then Martin is nearly as large as Brownie was then.

 

[Gibbo_88]

I did not like the Martin midfield experiment. He got flat out destroyed on the spread not surprisingly. I don't think he has the burst speed to go with a full-time mid but don't mind him as a forward/ruck.

I remember the last 5 games or so a bit different to you. He was one of the reasons things started to work, we looked better at the clearances because of his 'spread', he was linking up with others in the midfield quite a bit. The commentators mentioned it a few times as well.

 

[Nunez]

I remember the last 5 games or so a bit different to you. He was one of the reasons things started to work, we looked better at the clearances because of his 'spread', he was linking up with others in the midfield quite a bit. The commentators mentioned it a few times as well.

Martins long hand passes and presence certainly made an impact and I am all for us using him occasionally in the middle. I just don't rate him permanently over the other mids we have in a full time mid position.

 

[Billy Puller]

C.beams gets his body right can be as good and important as his brother

 

[POBT]

I think there's a big difference having mobility better than the average ruckman and being able to match it with the better midfielders in the comp.

 

[SizeMatters]

C.beams gets his body right can be as good and important as his brother

Can't see it myself. The reality is that he isn't best 22 at present and may even be delisted at the end of his contract. I know he has talent but to date he hasn't performed due to circumstances. He is 100% fit this pre-season and hopefully he can work his way into the side. I think he will be a good Adcock replacement off the HBF.

 

[SizeMatters]

I think there's a big difference having mobility better than the average ruckman and being able to match it with the better midfielders in the comp.

Usually club midfields only have one of those and it would be the Rocky and Redden that would counter them not Martin.

I can personally see Martin having a 2-3 minute burst in the midfield for a few games next season but I can't see it being a regular thing.

 

[POBT]

Usually club midfields only have one of those and it would be the Rocky and Redden that would counter them not Martin.

Most quality sides have several good midfielders. Good midfielders have good endurance and, moreover, can sustain speed over repeat efforts. If you play midfield, you need to be able to compete at that level.

 

[winged1]

Most quality sides have several good midfielders. Good midfielders have good endurance and, moreover, can sustain speed over repeat efforts. If you play midfield, you need to be able to compete at that level.

On what Martin showed us last year I say he ticks those boxes (endurance, repeat efforts), he is an exceptional athlete with good speed too. It would be his disposal that wouldnt allow him to go with the mids.

 

[POBT]

On what Martin showed us last year I say he ticks those boxes (endurance, repeat efforts), he is an exceptional athlete with good speed too. It would be his disposal that wouldnt allow him to go with the mids.

I personally don't believe he is at a good midfielder's standard in those areas. I think he's a wonderful athlete for his height but put him against a 6 footer with a midfielder's engine and I think he'd be shown up.

 

[Pacman82]

Can't see it myself. The reality is that he isn't best 22 at present and may even be delisted at the end of his contract. I know he has talent but to date he hasn't performed due to circumstances. He is 100% fit this pre-season and hopefully he can work his way into the side. I think he will be a good Adcock replacement off the HBF.

I rate CBeams, he made a contribution through out the 2nd half of last season.

It'd be a good sign for us if he doesn't make the best 22 this year, and on current form he'd certainly be first drop in midfield should anyone get injured.

 

[Big Sauce 21]

There's unfortunately bound to be an injury somewhere so be interesting which spot opens up

 

[SizeMatters]

Most quality sides have several good midfielders. Good midfielders have good endurance and, moreover, can sustain speed over repeat efforts. If you play midfield, you need to be able to compete at that level.

I have seen nothing to suggest he couldn't cover a good midfielder. There are more things to being a midfielder than just good endurance and the ability to sustain speed over repeat efforts. From the Lions Daniel Rich isn't particularly strong in either of those yet he is considered a good midfielder. Martins point of difference is that he is just so damn big and strong, and Richs is obviously his lethal foot. I do agree with your first post on this matter in that Martin would most likely struggle to contain the better midfielders of the comp but, as I posted above, he wouldn't be required to play on them. IMO

 

[blynd_freddie]

When you play 2 proper rucks, you need to work out what you are prepared to sacrifice to fit them in. If you don't play one as a forward, you effectively lose one running player.

Playing Martin as a midfielder to Leuenberger also has the knock on effect of denying another midfielder time in the midfield. There is only so many midfield spots to go around.

So the question is as much about what you lose as what you gain. IMO, I'd rather not lose out through the midfield. If that means accepting as lesser option up forward, then so be it.

“Martin represented Australia in basketball in an under-20 Test series in New Zealand as a raw 17-year-old shooting guard in 2003.”

Paraphrasing wiki it suggests a shooting guard-small forward is ‘swingman’ type of player who can play both the small forward and shooting guard, often between 193cm and 206cm. I don’t profess know either basketball or Martin’s level as a teenager but if he had been selected as 17 y/o teenager for international U20 comps then it suggests someone had identified talent.

Maybe someone with more knowledge could suggest/clarify if this basketball positional role requires the speed/agility of both body and mind. But again, we must be reminded that this kid apparently did not play competitive AFL – at any level - until 2006, when he was only 19.

He “scored an amazing 99.75 to finish in the top 40 Victorian students and was studying a science/law double degree.” – back in 2012, yep he's proven he has got the smarts and sure he did look a little out of place playing in the middle during that ‘ONE GAME’ against Geelong in round 23 last year but hey the stats that EskiBro quoted for this game still read well.

I’d roll the dice on this one. I’d give him the benefit of doubt and suggest if he was/is to be trained up for a midfield role he would be smart enough to pick this up by the middle of the year.

Pull this off and I’d dare to say that you’d be looking at a changing moment in the historical evolution of the game. Roll the dice PLEASE Leppa, this could be REAL groundbreaking shit!