Autopsy Round 10, 2024: St.Kilda v Fremantle

[phantom13]

No one likes the way we are playing & not scoring but just to take the other extreme for a minute - all preseason we heard about Northball and what an exciting attacking developing team they would be. They have scored 677 points for the year and have a percentage of 56.8%. We have scored 722 points & 94.1%

That fell apart for them pretty quickly & I don’t think I’ve heard the term Northball for 2 months. My point - it’s easy to say and not so easy to implement & can fall apart very quickly.

Also in 2009 we scored heavily and strangled teams with the Lyon Cage. So give RTB some elite talent to work with and then watch us score.

I mean half the saints supporters are adamant Ross outperformed in his first stint with us with a crap list and the same at Freo.

Now he needs elite talent and well score well.

People shift their narrative to suit whatever they wanna believe.

Also in 09 we finished top, know what our offense ranked? 4th. So we werent THAT good scoring wise.

 

[phantom13]

Bruce and Membrey were both solid lead makers and often followed the play up then doubled back which meant they often found masses of space. We used to play often with Jack Lonie the only player inside 50. If they marked further out they could barrel inside 50 and hope that Lonie could win one out against a tall that was sitting there as a goal keeper.

His game plan was pretty basic but solid, he just never had enough elite talent to go anywhere and no plan to improve it. Ratts had that one year with Joe the Goose out the back to Butler off the talls and once it was worked out we seemed to lose all attacking ability and had no plan B.

King doesn't understand that finding your own space is a way to get easy marks. He runs himself into traffic and tries to out mark his defender. When it works it's exciting but it has a low success rate. It makes him a very one dimensional player who needs to find a mismatch on a defender to have a good game.

Membrey has been a high half forward for along time now. He doesn't tend to play as a lead up marking forward anymore. King is usually the marking target inside 50 and Owens as some sort of hybrid between the two.

We should have kept Bruce to let Max King settle into AFL at his own pace. We Billingsed him where he had to carry too much weight of expectation and is now a neurotic head case who is taking years to meet potential.

King is starting to look alot like Mason Cox.

Body him before he can jump and he has no other tools. Hes alot better when it hits the deck to be fair but overall he looks like a one trick pony.

 

[Ads734]

I think thats a very generous take (i think its Ross trying to win every presser by being funny and clever) but even so, its failed pretty dismally.

Watch him play. He looks tenative, hes looking to handball first at all times, just looks like a system player doing a role not a gamebreaking star that wants the ball.

Add in that Ross' is saying he wants to play VFL.

Doesnt seem like a kid choc full of confidence to me. Might be speculative but theres some stuff to back it up.

Look I know what your saying but going back to his orginal saints times. One thing he doesn;t do is every throw players under the bus. Remember how he used to protect Kozy.

 

[gringo2011]

Someone asked the question about Ross and his defensive footy mindset in another thread, thought it was a good query (and had some time at work) so looked into it.

Thought this was a good question so looked myself.

2010 - 1935 points for at an average of 87, puts us 8th for scoring for the year (noting there was a big discrepancy between the top 8 and the bottom 8 that we bridged, the next highest was 2017 to Sydney and the next lowest was 1930 to North and Essendon).

2013 - To extend it a bit further Freo in their GF year were 11th in points for with 2035 at 92.

2022 - St.Kilda last year 14th in points for (we finished 6th for the record) with 1775 (Collingwood had 2142) at 77 per game.

St.Kilda this year 14th in points for averaging 74 per game. Worth noting its a pretty historically bad bottom 4 that were JUST sitting above (Hawthorn averaging 70 per game)

My biggest concern with this is that Ross' gameplans really do seem to stifle any natural creativity or flair players have. Pou seems to be the walking embodiment of it at the moment. He looks devoid of any confidence and joy.

It might be the Paul Roos model (defence first) but i think theres a big risk that this destroys development and even if we manage to draft some great young kids well smash their confidence and ability in those first few years and then were back to the Billings/Richo era.

Ross has to adapt. 8 goals a game wont win you many footy games anymore and our list is built for fast, corridor footy. Might mean we have some blowouts but itll also mean we can win some games, develop some kids into weapons and actually be a watchable enjoyable team.

Id probably take this defensive s**t ugly footy if we were winning but were not and nobody is enjoying it.

I think Lyon would like to be like Horse. Both are from the same school of thought. He's always made the most out of what he's got in clubs who are not providing the best of the best for him.

Fly at Collingwood would have everything he could ever ask for. Lyon used to work out of a shed and had to perform 5 different roles to make up for the staff we didn't employ. You'd love to have seen what he could have done with a side like Carlton.

I don't think he destroys development. It probably like his game plan irons out the bumps. You miss a few really amazing creative X factor guys who with freedom could be mercurial but he milks the last drop out of those 8 or 9 guys that probably would have drifted through 100 games and sat around telling people that they used to play AFL for the next 30 years.

 

[The Cobra]

I really don't see why Bonner cops it so much. It's a real perception over reality situation. He was one of 6 Saints players to get over 20 possessions and was at 84% efficiency was the most accurate. 4th most touches from any Saint too.

He's there to take the bold risk taking kicks that all sides use this year to open up the ground before zones can set.

You'd rather be playing risky that dour but when it goes badly it goes very very badly. We can't really win when going slow around the boundary comes back over our heads and brave corridor kicks are the best chance of breaking the game open but often turn over because our skills are a bit iffy.

Couldn’t agree more - everyone is complaining we don’t score - so Bonner takes it on, stuff’s up and is pilloried- go figure!

Ok from now for each kick in let’s kick it down the line as long as we can & see how that goes!

 

[phantom13]

Couldn’t agree more - everyone is complaining we don’t score - so Bonner takes it on, stuff’s up and is pilloried- go figure!

Ok from now for each kick in let’s kick it down the line as long as we can & see how that goes!

Youre right but its also a balance. Were so cautious to take the game on that on the handful of occasions we try if it fails it feels worse.

If we went corridor risky every time and it came off occasionally i think more people could live with it.

 

[Browny2Carlisle]

What a ridiculous statement!

On what evidence do you base this unsubstantiated drivel?

Have you not been watching?
Or maybe when it was said he asked to keep playing vfl?
He used to wanna be the guy to kick a goal from 60 to win the game. Looks like his attacking flair has been squashed.

 

[busso_mick]

I really don't see why Bonner cops it so much. It's a real perception over reality situation. He was one of 6 Saints players to get over 20 possessions and was at 84% efficiency was the most accurate. 4th most touches from any Saint too.

He's there to take the bold risk taking kicks that all sides use this year to open up the ground before zones can set.

You'd rather be playing risky that dour but when it goes badly it goes very very badly. We can't really win when going slow around the boundary comes back over our heads and brave corridor kicks are the best chance of breaking the game open but often turn over because our skills are a bit iffy.

Its a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't with Bonner. There is a big sentiment that we are too conservative and need to take more risks, cut inside and open up our scoring chances. When it doesn't come off for Bonner the howls of discontent are deafening. As a side our foot skills are below average, Bonner does commit some howlers, but as you say that is his job. If there was some more movement upfield then maybe his job might get a bit easier.

 

[phantom13]

Look I know what your saying but going back to his orginal saints times. One thing he doesn;t do is every throw players under the bus. Remember how he used to protect Kozy.

Thats more than a decade ago and hes been in the media since.

To me that comment was either very poorly considered or he knew what it would do.

Either way its not a good outcome.

 

[gringo2011]

King is starting to look alot like Mason Cox.

Body him before he can jump and he has no other tools. Hes alot better when it hits the deck to be fair but overall he looks like a one trick pony.

To me he's another Joe Daniher. He's not a conventional KPF, has quirks, has mental demons, does the incredible but equally likely to flake it up at the worst possible time. He's not going to be an easy ride but his best could win or lose you a flag depending on which one turns up on the day. We probably need to accept that he's different and work around that. Caminiti should be developed along side him as a more conventional tall power forward and pull a good defender away from him.

Forward synergy is missing ATM. We have had 2 seasons where the forwards haven't all been available at one time. Last year Membrey and King, this year Butler and Snags with King and Membrey both having mares too. They need to develop a way to make space and time for each other. I guess that comes with playing together.

 

[phantom13]

I really don't see why Bonner cops it so much. It's a real perception over reality situation. He was one of 6 Saints players to get over 20 possessions and was at 84% efficiency was the most accurate. 4th most touches from any Saint too.

He's there to take the bold risk taking kicks that all sides use this year to open up the ground before zones can set.

You'd rather be playing risky that dour but when it goes badly it goes very very badly. We can't really win when going slow around the boundary comes back over our heads and brave corridor kicks are the best chance of breaking the game open but often turn over because our skills are a bit iffy.

I just dont think he should be on our list.

Hes been good for us and hes one of few to actually take the game on but id rather a kid doing it.

 

[The Cobra]

I mean half the saints supporters are adamant Ross outperformed in his first stint with us with a crap list and the same at Freo.

Now he needs elite talent and well score well.

People shift their narrative to suit whatever they wanna believe.

Also in 09 we finished top, know what our offense ranked? 4th. So we werent THAT good scoring wise.

2009 - our % was 155.7% the highest

The second highest was 127.4%

Yes we were only the 4th ranked offence but silly old me would take that result - some others are never satisfied.

 

[phantom13]

To me he's another Joe Daniher. He's not a conventional KPF, has quirks, has mental demons, does the incredible but equally likely to flake it up at the worst possible time. He's not going to be an easy ride but his best could win or lose you a flag depending on which one turns up on the day. We probably need to accept that he's different and work around that. Caminiti should be developed along side him as a more conventional tall power forward and pull a good defender away from him.

Forward synergy is missing ATM. We have had 2 seasons where the forwards haven't all been available at one time. Last year Membrey and King, this year Butler and Snags with King and Membrey both having mares too. They need to develop a way to make space and time for each other. I guess that comes with playing together.

Im thinking very specifically of Cox tearing Richmond a new arseh*le in that final cause Broad was sick as a dog and Rance had to man him. Rance who was a great attacking defender but had zero defensive craft and just let him run and jump.

The few games ive seen King play well his defender has stood back shoulder and let him run and jump. Most defenders now know what their opponent wants to do and King doesnt fight through contact or lead.

Anyway ive hung alot of shit on Max for a while, he actually tried his ass off on Saturday so ill give him a week off my criticism.

 

[phantom13]

2009 - our % was 155.7% the highest

The second highest was 127.4%

Yes we were only the 4th ranked offence but silly old me would take that result - some others are never satisfied.

No i would take it everyday but it does speak to the fact the Ross absolutely prioritizes defense and at the moment its to the detrement of the team and development.

 

[g_TRAIN]

Watching West Coast last night it was amazing how all of their forwards lead-up HARD at the ball carrier and provided an option. Not just in the forward line but right up the middle of the ground making great options for defenders on the kick outs and then back towards goal opening up all sorts of space.

I wish someone (Noone more qualified than Roo) would spend at least 100 hours with Max and Hammer teaching them nothing but how to lead and how to create space to lead-in as a unit. With the reach that both those guys have they would be almost impossible to stop.

 

[The Punter]

On the Bonner big mistake, boy was Brad Hill leading very fast on that kick in. He was not an easy target to hit running that hard. Hill didn't make it easy for Bonner by any means.

I take all the commentary on Bonner. He's a good not but great, ambitious kick. He's probably on a par kicking wise with Webster, but Webster is hard so gets more credit, and fair enough too.

But with Paton in the side, as well as Webster, Sinclair, NWM and Stocker on the sidelines, and all far from our worst this season, I've arrived at the stage were I wouldn't be kicking up a fuss if Bonner missed this weekend. I'll also be fine if he plays.

 

[Browny2Carlisle]

I just dont think he should be on our list.

Hes been good for us and hes one of few to actually take the game on but id rather a kid doing it.

Makes our defence unbalanced. Doesn’t do much defensively and I’d rather others taking those kicks

 

[gringo2011]

Youre right but its also a balance. Were so cautious to take the game on that on the handful of occasions we try if it fails it feels worse.

If we went corridor risky every time and it came off occasionally i think more people could live with it.

We just never seem to end a chain with a goal. Ww work our arses off and then turn it over coming inside 50 or run ourselves into trouble out on the wings. Everything looks laborious.

Getting Crouch, Snags and Butler back should fix a lot of issues. Playing football without a midfield is like driving a car without wheels. Having no small forwards capable of scoring is like removing the steering wheel as well.

More inside mids mean that those flashy wings can play out in space and go for gallop and not have to do the grunt work.... I hope anyway.

 

[phantom13]

Makes our defence unbalanced. Doesn’t do much defensively and I’d rather others taking those kicks

Were set up for Sincs and Wood to be back taking the kick to a wing, then Hill, Nas and co to be taking it forward from there.

Bonner is playing good attacking footy so i get why hes playing i just dont think we should have picked him up if were rebuilding. Adds to my commentary about our direction being a mess.

 

[gringo2011]

On the Bonner big mistake, boy was Brad Hill leading very fast on that kick in. He was not an easy target to hit running that hard. Hill didn't make it easy for Bonner by any means.

I take all the commentary on Bonner. He's a good not but great, ambitious kick. He's probably on a par kicking wise with Webster, but Webster is hard so gets more credit, and fair enough too.

But with Paton in the side, as well as Webster, Sinclair, NWM and Stocker on the sidelines, and all far from our worst this season, I've arrived at the stage were I wouldn't be kicking up a fuss if Bonner missed this weekend. I'll also be fine if he plays.

He's a very good longer kick I find. Not many can hit up 60 meter kicks while keeping them low and fast but some of those shorter ones are less good. I think as an over all he's probably a fair bit better than Webster but due to the ones he tries to pick-off he is very obvious when he does stuff them up. He seems to be given licence to try to hit the brave surgical kicks that open the field up but destroy you on the counter if they don't come off.

 

[phantom13]

If youre kicking to a leading player kick it like Banger did. Little wedge put up in front for the bloke to run onto.

Modern players wanna bullet every kick, the best inside 50 kicks have the little pop into space in their bag, it also minimises error. Bonner doesnt have it too often.

 

[The Punter]

He's a very good longer kick I find. Not many can hit up 60 meter kicks while keeping them low and fast but some of those shorter ones are less good. I think as an over all he's probably a fair bit better than Webster but due to the ones he tries to pick-off he is very obvious when he does stuff them up. He seems to be given licence to try to hit the brave surgical kicks that open the field up but destroy you on the counter if they don't come off.

Fair enough. Different players are better at different kinds of kicks. Zac Jones out of stoppage is good, but Zac Jones kicking it 15 metres in front of him standing behind a mark is poor. Jack Steele is a good long kick for goal, but when he kicks it inside 50 it's almost identical.

 

[gringo2011]

Were set up for Sincs and Wood to be back taking the kick to a wing, then Hill, Nas and co to be taking it forward from there.

Bonner is playing good attacking footy so i get why hes playing i just dont think we should have picked him up if were rebuilding. Adds to my commentary about our direction being a mess.

Rebuilding is not just kids though. If you can pick up a few cheap best 22 with 3 or 4+ years ahead of them it isn't an issue. We need to be able to replace guys going out while making up for the lack of high end talent. You need to probably bring in 3 to 5 potential best 22 every year for 3 years to get a fast jump to keep up with attrition while making up ground.

If Seb Ross types tip out you need to replace them. Carlton and Essendon both kept grabbing pieces that never really paid off and now with their pool of elite talent make a solid side.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

If youre kicking to a leading player kick it like Banger did. Little wedge put up in front for the bloke to run onto.

Modern players wanna bullet every kick, the best inside 50 kicks have the little pop into space in their bag, it also minimises error. Bonner doesnt have it too often.

So you are suggesting they should play like our forward coach did.
Who could possibly communicate that to the playing group?

 

[EddieMurphy]

Let's face it, the list has been "Rossed" totally

RLined?