Review Round 12, 2019 - Carlton vs. Brisbane Lions

[Scubaveg]

I really need to find a way to enjoy football even on days like yesterday. Wifey and I have just found out we are expecting our first child, yep going to to be an old dad, and as a result just don’t want to be angry watching football any more!


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Football Pope]

We're on track to not be good enough to play finals and that's still the case? Even though we're in the 8 and the only team outside the 8 looking likely to come in only just managed to beat us on their home ground.

At the moment we are just making up the numbers in the 8...having said that the bye couldn't come soon enough...We're a young side.. I find it amazing that we have 15 players that have played every game this season.

 

[SonnyBoy1]

Absolute shocking loss no matter if they had a new coach or not, we don't deserve finals if we can only beat teams at the GABBA. We have turned into a more hyped up version of North Melbourne bunch of average middle aged players. The players and club have got sucked into the hype of thinking we have turned into a good club, We went way too early trying to add senior players instead of just adding another year of the draft.I smell another mini rebuild coming up after Robinson, Rich, Martin and Zorko all retire.

 

[Viceregal]

I'm done with this club.

Until the next round.

I told my wife I wasn't going to watch the Lions play next weekend ... of course that might have something to do with the bye...

 

[Tom14]

We're on track to not be good enough to play finals and that's still the case? Even though we're in the 8 and the only team outside the 8 looking likely to come in only just managed to beat us on their home ground.

It's become pretty clear that the top 3 or 4 if you include West Coast are miles better than the rest at their best. You can't tell me we are less deserving of a finals spot than either Adelaide team, Freo or teams like Hawthorn or the Saints. Maybe there will be a shock and a team from outside that 4 can do some damage in the finals but I would be surprised.

We might miss out and rue lost opportunities away from home for sure, but I don't buy this idea that we aren't good enough to play finals - there is a great mass of inconsistent teams from 5 to 12 and I think we are one of the better few of those.

 

[martinson]

We're on track to not be good enough to play finals and that's still the case? Even though we're in the 8 and the only team outside the 8 looking likely to come in only just managed to beat us on their home ground.

We're in the 8 so that's where we should be aiming to stay . The landscape is changing so rapidly in the competition you have to take opportunities and build on them whenever they present . Free agency and the ability of players to break contracts willy nilly means that it's folly to rely on anything 3 years down the track . You aim for that overall obviously ,but nothing's guaranteed.

 

[dlanod]

I really need to find a way to enjoy football even on days like yesterday. Wifey and I have just found out we are expecting our first child, yep going to to be an old dad, and as a result just don’t want to be angry watching football any more!


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

That was a quick way to feel better after a loss.

 

[Gadzorks]

I really need to find a way to enjoy football even on days like yesterday. Wifey and I have just found out we are expecting our first child, yep going to to be an old dad, and as a result just don’t want to be angry watching football any more!


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Congratulations. Never too old, and we’ve enjoyed our ‘old parent’ kids in ways we didn’t with the early ones. Our world is full of old farts, so we hang out with the parents of our youngest s friend who are 10-15 years younger and lots of fun.

 

[Skoob]

We're on track to not be good enough to play finals and that's still the case? Even though we're in the 8 and the only team outside the 8 looking likely to come in only just managed to beat us on their home ground.

We’re only halfway through the season. Look at the fixture. I have us finishing around 10th - 12th. A good result.

 

[jackess]

We’re only halfway through the season. Look at the fixture. I have us finishing around 10th - 12th. A good result.

We have a very easy finish to the season.

Have you done the ladder predictor? We'll definitely be too 9 unless something disastrous happens.

 

[davemc_lions]

Saints probably beat the Suns next week.
Freo will probably beat port and end up in the 8.
We could end up with 4 teams a game behind us.
So we really need the win after the bye. Another couple of losses we end up outside the 8

 

[Pride of lions]

1. Does any one here actually know that Nick gets a role on a specific player most weeks he plays?? Or does everyone just shoot from the hip with emotion and irrational BS. I’m my own worst enemy here for reading this I guess but I actually enjoy the chat. I’ve refrained from commenting for a while because to be honest anyone would sometimes think we were sitting bottom of the ladder the way some react here.
   The abitrary calls for Nick delisting and getting dropped every week is just ridiculous (and many other players)
   First game this year he played 3 quarters on Fantasia and kept him scoreless. He got his 2 goals during Nicks compulsory rotation. Asked to go to Wulla for the last quarter and the guy had already kicked 5 (on who I might add) and some drongos on here suggested he had 7 kicked on him??? “Nicks ****, should never play for the Lions again” or words to the affect.
   Against Collingwood I thought he played a really good game that day.
   Hawthorne kept Breust to one goal (yes from his error) and today McGovern one goal and no influence.
   He could run and chase kicks but he doesn’t. He plays his role. Some on here need understand how this works sometimes rather than sacrificing your own players to appease your own frustrations.
   You think these guys won’t be pissed!!! Ashamed!!! Far out some have no idea.
   Deluded if you really thought this was a premiership year. Absolute leaps and bounds this season but today reminds everybody how much work is left to do.
   You can either bag the **** out of your own players that when they win you “love” them when they lose you tear them apart or stick fat. Constructive criticism of the game is fine and always a good read. Lately it gotten worse than that.
   Nothing wrong with passion and there are many here that have supported the Lions for many more years than myself. Still 6 years and a playing Son that gets ripped to the ********* on his on teams “supporters forum” probably allows me to stand up a voice my disappointment.
   There are many many realists with composed commentary on this forum and its those I really enjoy reading.

   I agree that the negative commentary on here about some of the players is way over the top and too often uninformed. I was at the game yesterday and had Nick in the votes. He basically kept us in the game when we were under siege in the first 15 minutes,we could have easily been 3 or 4 goals down by half way through the first quarter without his defensive efforts,he really held the backline together during that time. He was quieter after that but kept a tight clamp on McGovern throughout and showed a hell of a lot more composure than many of the other more celebrated players. Unfortunately if Nick makes a mistake he gets hammered where others seem to get overlooked for doing the same thing,or worse.

 

[lioninthesand]

Absolute shocking loss no matter if they had a no coach or not, we don't deserve finals if we can only beat teams at the GABBA. We have turned into a more hyped up version of North Melbourne bunch of average middle aged players. The players and club have got sucked into the hype of thinking we have turned into a good club, We went way too early trying to add senior players instead of just adding another year of the draft.I smell another mini rebuild coming up after Robinson, Rich, Martin and Zorko all retire.

Except we have a whole bunch of young talent coming through together and are 3-4 years into a rebuild, have a new coach and have bottomed out for 5 years. North hadn't had a decent draft pick for 5 years and were competing for finals most years in the lead up to last season, had way older players carrying more of the load than our older guys that you highlighted, hadnt just landed a potential brownlow winner and had a stale coach of 9 years lol .. One of the worst footy analogys Ive seen. Zero comparisons between us and the Kangas last year.

 

[davemc_lions]

We have a very easy finish to the season.

Have you done the ladder predictor? We'll definitely be too 9 unless something disastrous happens.

I have us 10th where I be happy with at the start of the year.. the first 4 wins where great. Although 3-5 since. we probably end up 4-6 rest of the season.
Our gap best to worst is too much.. Next year be less.

 

[Robbo18!]

1. 
   I agree that the negative commentary on here about some of the players is way over the top and too often uninformed. I was at the game yesterday and had Nick in the votes. He basically kept us in the game when we were under siege in the first 15 minutes,we could have easily been 3 or 4 goals down by half way through the first quarter without his defensive efforts,he really held the backline together during that time. He was quieter after that but kept a tight clamp on McGovern throughout and showed a hell of a lot more composure than many of the other more celebrated players. Unfortunately if Nick makes a mistake he gets hammered where others seem to get overlooked for doing the same thing,or worse.

That’s my point exactly.

 

[SonnyBoy1]

Except we have a whole bunch of young talent coming through together and are 3-4 years into a rebuild, have a new coach and have bottomed out for 5 years. North hadn't had a decent draft pick for 5 years and were competing for finals most years in the lead up to last season, had way older players carrying more of the load than our older guys that you highlighted, hadnt just landed a potential brownlow winner and had a stale coach of 9 years lol .. One of the worst footy analogys Ive seen. Zero comparisons between us and the Kangas last year.

Who is this bunch of of young talent coming through that I'm missing, majority of the players dominating NEAFL for us are senior players whose careers are cooked. Also getting Neale was a no brainer he still has another 6 years in the tank but we shouldn't of traded out our first round picks for the either last year or this year in that trade period. Look at our side yesterday Allison, Answerth, Mccluggage, Witherden, Rayner and maybe add Hipwood are the only young players you could say are young and inexperienced we aren't as young as people believe we are, most weeks are getting carried by our seniors players and Andrews. I just think we should of gone for another year of trying to bring in top end talent in all these years of rebuilding we have managed to only draft 1 Mid in the top 10.

 

[abcde12345]

THE GOOD:

Answerth: Looks to be continuing to find his place and get more confidence at the top level. Still making some mistakes, but that comes with being in your first few games. Worth persisting with him still at this level I think.

Allison: Wasn't huge... but I thought for his first game at this level for the year he was definitely acceptable and hope he gets a few more opportunities to contend at this level. Was willing to take the game on a bit I found when most players were sitting still.

The Usual Suspects (Neale, Rich, Gardiner, Zorko): I thought everyone from the usual group had a pretty good game (Zorko moreso before he got hurt). Don't think there's much more to say here.

THE BAD:

Archie Smith: I would say it's pretty clear that Archie's inclusion was built around being an opportunity for development of the successor at a higher level than the NEAFL provides in what should have been an easy win. Unfortunately, I think this game highlights we are not good enough yet to take any win for granted. Archie isn't up to the grade yet clearly, and whoever he works with in the seconds needs to try and help him develop his game sense more than his tap work at this point.

McCluggage: If I'm gonna talk him up when he plays well, then it warrants discussing his poor play too. He made some absolutely terrible clangers this game. Game was his to take a hold of too. Nothing too worrying I think, just a bad day at the office.

Rayner: 7 disposals, 5 clangers, 1 tackle. If he was having a rough patch - fair enough, let him play through it. It's been pretty much the whole season at this point now though, and I don't think it's fair for our players in the reserves or for Rayner. To me it seems to clearly be a confidence issue. Last year I thought he had quite a good set of hands, now he looks like he can't hold on to anything. Let him build his confidence back up in the seconds.

The 2 Ruck Structure:
Top 8 teams as it stands:
GEE: Main Ruck: Stanley. Secondary Ruck: Ratugolea (KPF)
GWS: Main Ruck: Mumford. Secondary Ruck: Tomlinson (Midfielder/Ruck)
COL: Main Ruck: Grundy. Secondary Ruck: Cox/Reid (KPF)
WCE: Main Ruck: Vardy. Secondary Ruck: Hickey (Ruck)
ADE: Main Ruck: O'Brien. Secondary Ruck: Himmelberg/Jenkins (KPF)
RIC: Main Ruck: Nankervis/Soldo. Secondary Ruck: Balta (Utility/KPD)
POR: Main Ruck: Lycett. Secondary Ruck: Ryder (KPF/Ruck)

Really I would only say West Coast and maybe Richmond are going in with the 2 ruck structure that we are. Both of these teams have fallen relative to their result last year as well. I suppose Tomlinson is arguable as well however from what I understand he plays mostly on the ball anyway?

To me this trend indicates the main climbers in the season (Port, Adelaide, Geelong) have all jumped into the one ruck meta game with a key position player relieving. The other main climber other than us (Fremantle) also goes in with one main ruck and a KPD relieving.

I really think this is the biggest tactical oversight in our season so far. We are sacrificing speed and pressure in the forward line in order to theoretically win over the ruck battle and dominate through the middle of the ground, particularly through stoppages. Despite this, we actually average less clearances than our opponents, and we only thinly win the hitout battle (I don't know the stats on hitouts to advantage).

At this point in the season, I would argue that this experiment has not been successful, and we should proceed one of two ways. Either prepare one of Oscar or Martin to be the main ruckman and do 80% of the tap work for the game with McStay relieve rucking (if he can), OR drop one of Hipwood or McStay for Oscar, running a similar setup to Port.

I honestly think this is the biggest oversight of the season, a lot more so than some of the other things some posters have been suggesting (in jest? - Cutler, Rayner etc). It might come down to the coaching department believing we are going to get mauled in the ruck if we don't, however I really don't believe that it will be worse than what we are currently experiencing at the moment.

THE UGLY:

Robertson: He's playing fine everyone. He makes one or two mistakes a game admittedly, but as a roleplayer he has done what he needs to do most weeks. I have noticed people are throwing up the "Bruest was just having a bad day that day" etc arguments - why do you think that is so? Robertson has honestly played completely acceptably the past couple of weeks, and has successfully weakened the impact the other team has had. I do agree with some - I would like to see him playing run-with roles through the middle more, where his offensive mistakes don't immediately result in a goal, and he can have more impact with his shut down ability.

Fagan (and the coaching staff): The suggestions to start searching for new coaching staff I think is pretty comical. We are currently in the top 8, I don't think this is a pressing issue. There are tactical errors by all coaches, and despite what some are saying I do think Fagan has been switching up the gameplan in game when things aren't going successfully. I think everyone should cool off a bit if they are seriously suggesting searching for new coaches.

All in all, I think we are ahead of our expected rebuild schedule at this point. There are both positives and negatives to this. Obviously the positive is that we are finally getting some results going our way on the field. The negative is less top end talent coming through the draft than expected. Either way, we are trending upwards nicely, and I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and realise that this was never the premiership year. We should be hoping we are pushing for the cup in a couple of years I think.

 

[trikster]

People keep underrating Martin. He isn’t a good marking forward but he does play as an extra midfielder. He often crops up in those link up handball chains through the corridor as well as running hard to the wing to present an option.

It's not about underrating him, in terms of what you have mentioned here he is one of the best in the comp. But for our structure and how Fagan wants to play, his lack of forward ability is a hindrance.

 

[AFLQLD]

Does any one here actually know that Nick gets a role on a specific player most weeks he plays?? Or does everyone just shoot from the hip with emotion and irrational BS. I’m my own worst enemy here for reading this I guess but I actually enjoy the chat. I’ve refrained from commenting for a while because to be honest anyone would sometimes think we were sitting bottom of the ladder the way some react here.
The abitrary calls for Nick delisting and getting dropped every week is just ridiculous (and many other players)
First game this year he played 3 quarters on Fantasia and kept him scoreless. He got his 2 goals during Nicks compulsory rotation. Asked to go to Wulla for the last quarter and the guy had already kicked 5 (on who I might add) and some drongos on here suggested he had 7 kicked on him??? “Nicks ****, should never play for the Lions again” or words to the affect.
Against Collingwood I thought he played a really good game that day.
Hawthorne kept Breust to one goal (yes from his error) and today McGovern one goal and no influence.
He could run and chase kicks but he doesn’t. He plays his role. Some on here need understand how this works sometimes rather than sacrificing your own players to appease your own frustrations.
You think these guys won’t be pissed!!! Ashamed!!! Far out some have no idea.
Deluded if you really thought this was a premiership year. Absolute leaps and bounds this season but today reminds everybody how much work is left to do.
You can either bag the **** out of your own players that when they win you “love” them when they lose you tear them apart or stick fat. Constructive criticism of the game is fine and always a good read. Lately it gotten worse than that.
Nothing wrong with passion and there are many here that have supported the Lions for many more years than myself. Still 6 years and a playing Son that gets ripped to the ********* on his on teams “supporters forum” probably allows me to stand up a voice my disappointment.
There are many many realists with composed commentary on this forum and its those I really enjoy reading.

We need more of these doses of reality!

There is far more going on that we are privy to on here. I would suggest that we see ourselves as armchair experts only and we are seeing one view of the game and the players and nothing more.

Keep contributing Robbo18!!

 

[jackess]

It's not about underrating him, in terms of what you have mentioned here he is one of the best in the comp. But for our structure and how Fagan wants to play, his lack of forward ability is a hindrance.

It is when Archie is in the side. Although he has kicked more goals than Oscar since the first month of the season.

 

[Snake_Baker]

It's looks as though the Lions ran out of tickets after a couple of hard fought matches againt Freo & Hawthorn, and the bye arrived a week late.

I have you scratched down for more 6 wins, 2 losses and 3 maybes (Port away, Hawks Tassie, Richmond away), so you'll be playing finals.

The maybe's will define how far you go.

 

[lioninthesand]

Who is this bunch of of young talent coming through that I'm missing, majority of the players dominating NEAFL for us are senior players whose careers are cooked. Also getting Neale was a no brainer he still has another 6 years in the tank but we shouldn't of traded out our first round picks for the either last year or this year in that trade period. Look at our side yesterday Allison, Answerth, Mccluggage, Witherden, Rayner and maybe add Hipwood are the only young players you could say are young and inexperienced we aren't as young as people believe we are, most weeks are getting carried by our seniors players and Andrews. I just think we should of gone for another year of trying to bring in top end talent in all these years of rebuilding we have managed to only draft 1 Mid in the top 10.

The future looks good mate. We are legit at the start of an upward arc. Alot of players we have put serious time into are hitting that 70-100 game mark together. Berry, Clugg, Bailey, Answerth, Oscar, Rayner coming in under them. Every team in the AFL has a handful of senior talent on the ground at anyone time. Zorko has 3-4 years left, Martin and Robbo 1-2 years and none of those individuals are irreplaceable by any strectch, its not like Brown and black in 2011-2012 where replacing them seemed impossible. If anything, we are in a good position to start phasing them out with little impact. We are winning games, playing kids, whilst being often below our best - if anything, our kids are carrying too much of the load.

I get that loses like that are tough to take, but waking up deciding that our whole situation is f***ed and we have very little future seems to be a slightly OTT response. We are in one of the most enviable positions in the AFL right now as far and devaloping sides go.

 

[Tom14]

Who is this bunch of of young talent coming through that I'm missing, majority of the players dominating NEAFL for us are senior players whose careers are cooked. Also getting Neale was a no brainer he still has another 6 years in the tank but we shouldn't of traded out our first round picks for the either last year or this year in that trade period. Look at our side yesterday Allison, Answerth, Mccluggage, Witherden, Rayner and maybe add Hipwood are the only young players you could say are young and inexperienced we aren't as young as people believe we are, most weeks are getting carried by our seniors players and Andrews. I just think we should of gone for another year of trying to bring in top end talent in all these years of rebuilding we have managed to only draft 1 Mid in the top 10.

'Getting Neale was a no brainer but we shouldn't of traded out our first round picks' - ahh yes, I agree with this genius list management strategy of acquiring A grade players for no cost.

 

[snooplions]

McStays's clunking a lot of mark 20m out right in front lately. Probably both a gift and a curse for him with his yips, but he's looking more comfortable with his forward craft of late.

 

[Tom14]

It is when Archie is in the side. Although he has kicked more goals than Oscar since the first month of the season.

It's not so much goalkicking with Oscar, it is competing down the line. If we wanted to be a boundary team we can't let the opposition take uncontested defensive marks which is what happened far too often yesterday.