Autopsy Round 16, 2023 : Hawks get the Blues

[toomanysquibs]

His ball use is great to have. I’m not sure how much he would have been able to use it though. Like the suns game where he only had 4 kicks.

He's the most likely of our mids to find space if he's used as a receiver, super clever and quick. Not mature physically, but those things are his one iron.

That's one bad game vs. the SUns. But wait... he had 12 handballs. Not exactly a low passion game for a first year mid playing forward?


I get it he's young, but he's had real impact in fast games where the ball is being flicked around by teams running through us like we're not there.

 

[HawthornHawk]

Off the back of getting almost 40k to the Brisbane game, it was amazing to see 67k at the Blues game considering:

• raining morning
• train chaos
• 1.10pm Sunday

Nice to see the Hawk crowd numbers in Melbourne this year have been very good, espeically for a 16th place rebuilding side copping hammerings most weeks

Was a great crowd and great to see everyone getting fired up to encourage the side with that little run we had early in the second half

 

[Dixie Flatline]

Worth noting that this is the first home game Hawthorn has hosted against Carlton at the MCG since round 23, 2015. Hawthorn has played Carlton in three consecutive games at the MCG including yesterday's game, but the games in 2021 and 2022 were Carlton home games. Hawthorn played Carlton as the host in 2016 and 2019 at York Park.

In fact, Hawthorn has barely had a home game against Carlton in the last few years. Yesterday's game broke a run of three consecutive away games played against Carlton, with the last home game against Carlton before yesterday occurring in April 2019. It just underlines that the AFL's approach to creating the fixture is problematic at best.

 

[hawksfan71]

worst commentators ever why do they brown nose Carlton so much and act like they will be in the finals? Good luck beating pies and Port in coming weeks!

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Frosty's ball use out of the backline is shaky but he's got speed for a big man and can lock down a good forward when he's on. I rkn he might be better used in another position not sure what that is.

The position is FB at Box Hill

 

[H00t]

He's the most likely of our mids to find space if he's used as a receiver, super clever and quick. Not mature physically, but those things are his one iron.

That's one bad game vs. the SUns. But wait... he had 12 handballs. Not exactly a low passion game for a first year mid playing forward?


I get it he's young, but he's had real impact in fast games where the ball is being flicked around by teams running through us like we're not there.

It’s not that he had a bad game against the suns. It’s that he doesn’t have ability to impact (because of his current role) if our other mids are getting beaten he isn’t going to get the ball.

As he develops he will be able to be more inside. It’s just that he’s young.

 

[H00t]

It's his first year, but....

He'd literally be the fastest mid we have on the park. I doubt it would be close except for maybe Nash, with MacKenzie probably quicker off the mark. Check out his sprint times and this analysis from Rookie Me:

"Mackenzie also plays the role of receiver naturally around stoppages, using that same speed to get separation on his direct opponent and spread from the congestion well, getting out in space in a position easy for his teammates to give the ball out to."


He was drafted as a guy whose defensive game and tackling was one of his main attributes.

" his work off the ball is also admirable, as one of the better two way runners in the crop, Mackenzie works hard to help aid his side in defence, whether it’s laying tackles or applying heavy pressure on an oppositions disposal."

If you're saying he's a first year player, and can't bring it at a high level all day, and isn't Josh Ward then I wouldn't disagree.

But if you like him a lot, you must notice the difference he's made around the ball as a sub - Port game comes to mind.

Also the fact that he can tackle and run defensively so well.

Definitely gives us bite around the contest with his pace and hurt with clean disposal. But he's also a fast mid, who can run both ways and tackle in addition to being damaging with ball in hand. Is definitely tackling guys in the back half, even if he's mainly been used on ball or forward.

He might be quick in training. But he hasn’t shown that same speed on the field. Whether that’s a fitness thing I’m not sure.

I’ve seen Worpel run past him while bouncing the ball. And I’ve also seen him struggle to get seperation and have seen space closed on him super quickly.

He’s got a nice side step. But straight line speed I have to very much disagree.

He has done defensive running in the past. It’s just he hasn’t quite got that and tackling down at AFL level yet. The two games he’s done it well have been North and Eagles. Both pretty poor teams.

 

[FB19]

Sort of expected but still a tough watch with little to take from it positively.
I just can’t watch frosty anymore it’s not good for my health. We can’t play 3 slow players forward. We can’t play with no second forward, you need to have tigers like pressure for that to work. We can’t play both of those rucks it’s like being a man down after the bounce. Pick 1 and play Kosi until you have something better and he can ruck 15% as a chop out. At least he competes the sight of Nash standing and not competing at ruck contests was laughable.
I know we have to be patient but the contrast of effort from the third quarter to all else was stark. it shouldn’t be that stark even at this early stage of the build. And my god we have a habit of making some pretty ordinary sides and players look like absolute world beaters.

 

[Denver Day Lewis]

It just underlines that the AFL's approach to creating the fixture is problematic corrupt at best.

 

[Mississippi]

Sort of expected but still a tough watch with little to take from it positively.
I just can’t watch frosty anymore it’s not good for my health. We can’t play 3 slow players forward. We can’t play with no second forward, you need to have tigers like pressure for that to work. We can’t play both of those rucks it’s like being a man down after the bounce. Pick 1 and play Kosi until you have something better and he can ruck 15% as a chop out. At least he competes the sight of Nash standing and not competing at ruck contests was laughable.
I know we have to be patient but the contrast of effort from the third quarter to all else was stark. it shouldn’t be that stark even at this early stage of the build. And my god we have a habit of making some pretty ordinary sides and players look like absolute world beaters.

You were doing so well for a moment FB - I was about to nominate you for team selection committee.

But then you mentioned Kosi

 

[Buzz Hawk]

Not one player in the coaches votes, not one.
That’s lack of intensity and effort.

 

[Mercy Seat]

Couldn’t stand Dwayne yesterday but had to chuckle at his comment on frost; ‘you love his endeavour but you wouldn’t let him run with scissors’

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Worth noting that this is the first home game Hawthorn has hosted against Carlton at the MCG since round 23, 2015. Hawthorn has played Carlton in three consecutive games at the MCG including yesterday's game, but the games in 2021 and 2022 were Carlton home games. Hawthorn played Carlton as the host in 2016 and 2019 at York Park.

In fact, Hawthorn has barely had a home game against Carlton in the last few years. Yesterday's game broke a run of three consecutive away games played against Carlton, with the last home game against Carlton before yesterday occurring in April 2019. It just underlines that the AFL's approach to creating the fixture is problematic at best.

And before 2019 we hadn't had a home game against them in something like 13 seasons (or maybe have had 1 thrown in)

We get a lot of crap thrown on our crowds, but we are continually the away team against big drawing teams (and half the time get to be the marquee away side for their docklands games), and we continually get the low drawing teams for our home games.

Comparatively, we actually draw well when comparing team vs team (Collingwood being the exception)

 

[Roger Rogerson]

We can really only play one of Breust and Wingard IMO. Both lack defensive accountability, not from a lack of trying. Greene is the cherry on top.

Carlton were just walking it out of the back 50.

And CMac31 who isn't express either. CMac28 not quick either when he plays. When we don't have our line breakers we are exposed for pace.

Problem is we don't have any aerial game that can cover for this. No long bail out kicks to dependable talls that can mark it and retain possession. It's a killer for us. I am really starting to question if Reeves will ever be mobile enough to be a factor around the ground.

 

[Hawker55]

And before 2019 we hadn't had a home game against them in something like 13 seasons (or maybe have had 1 thrown in)

We get a lot of crap thrown on our crowds, but we are continually the away team against big drawing teams (and half the time get to be the marquee away side for their docklands games), and we continually get the low drawing teams for our home games.

Comparatively, we actually draw well when comparing team vs team (Collingwood being the exception)

It’s almost as if Stuart Fox was right and the AFL are paying us back for not capitulating when they told us to get out of Tassie and leave it to North and oh by the way heres’ $10 mill.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

And CMac31 who isn't express either. CMac28 not quick either when he plays. When we don't have our line breakers we are exposed for pace.

Problem is we don't have any aerial game that can cover for this. No long bail out kicks to dependable talls that can mark it and retain possession. It's a killer for us. I am really starting to question if Reeves will ever be mobile enough to be a factor around the ground.

Both the macs remind me of Sam Mitchell.
Never the quickest players, but he'd hit a medium pace and keep going, no real slow down or speed up.
Remember a training sessions you'd see Mitch going nowhere, yet somehow by the end of a run through he would be at the front of the pack

 

[Mitchell Madness]

It’s almost as if Stuart Fox was right and the AFL are paying us back for not capitulating when they told us to get out of Tassie and leave it to North and oh by the way heres’ $10 mill.

Thing is, the poor fixtures go back to before north were there. Hawthorn is a big club without a big presence.
Essendon, Collingwood, Carlton, Richmond all generate headlines, so even a slightly average fixture gets out there - remember the tears over the tigs and pies having to play a home game at docklands?

 

[stevehawkington]

The position is FB at Box Hill

not sure if the club agrees. He's a vice captain

* Leadership group

 

[Roger Rogerson]

He might be quick in training. But he hasn’t shown that same speed on the field. Whether that’s a fitness thing I’m not sure.

I’ve seen Worpel run past him while bouncing the ball. And I’ve also seen him struggle to get seperation and have seen space closed on him super quickly.

He’s got a nice side step. But straight line speed I have to very much disagree.

He has done defensive running in the past. It’s just he hasn’t quite got that and tackling down at AFL level yet. The two games he’s done it well have been North and Eagles. Both pretty poor teams.

You have summed him up very well. He's crafty finding space in contests by going sideways and backwards wherher to buy time to dispose or to receive. But when he has someone on his hammer and he can't cut a line he is cactus. He defensive run is not chase down tackle stuff it's to get into a position to be an outlet.

I was against taking him at the draft as I was worried about his legspeed and I was worried about how his ball winning would translate at the top level as i didnt think he found position naturally enough. Fortunately the latter has been fine. I'm relieved at what he has shown at the top level. He is very much in the Sam Mitchell mould as a player in terms of what he needs to become to be an elite mid as you would expect for a top 10 pick.

He did a couple of things at BH on the weekend which showed a small amount of burst out the front of the stoppage which suggests he may be able to add another layer to his game with more speed work.

 

[Roger Rogerson]

not sure if the club agrees. He's a vice captain

Since when?

 

[toomanysquibs]

He might be quick in training. But he hasn’t shown that same speed on the field. Whether that’s a fitness thing I’m not sure.

I’ve seen Worpel run past him while bouncing the ball. And I’ve also seen him struggle to get seperation and have seen space closed on him super quickly.

He’s got a nice side step. But straight line speed I have to very much disagree.

He has done defensive running in the past. It’s just he hasn’t quite got that and tackling down at AFL level yet. The two games he’s done it well have been North and Eagles. Both pretty poor teams.

Endurance is an issue for any young mid first year in. Peak endurance not really coming for another 3/4 years.

I think I'll agree to disagree on the two way running and spread. Everyone looks slow when we're losing, and he's definitely brought those same traits into the AFL. His tackle numbers are very solid in the 5 games he's played against good opposition when we've lost (3/4 against Port, Cats, Crows,Syd etc.).

Our whole side looked slow against Port, he didn't from the moment he came on.

Worpel running past him at the start of the first would be signifiant, but not so much if Mackenzie just ran forward and back flat out is is cooked for a minute or two.

But he's quick, I don't get to see his offensive work live for the most part, but I can tell from where he's bobbed up to tackle on the TV that he's often run hard to be there.

 

[FB19]

not sure if the club agrees. He's a vice captain

* Leadership group

Tom Jonas says hi.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

not sure if the club agrees. He's a vice captain

* Leadership group

Ah well, opponents will continue to exploit him then. He provides no leadership on the field too, so that shouldn't make him an automatic selection. Never mind when you add in how he's actually been playing.