Preview Round 16 Lions vs Bulldogs Thursday June 30th @ 7:20 PM Brisbane Time @ The Gabba

[briztoon]

I don't think the answer to fix the inside mids is on the list at their current level of development this year.

I saw your tweet and I don't disagree with portions of it, I just can't get to the idea that shoving Dev, TBerry or Matho in for JL would do much. If you give up on the season and want to chuck them in there then sure, but I don't think thats a sensible decision from 3rd spot on the ladder when you've barely played a good game.

Maybe in 5 weeks it will be time though.

You’re right, the answer probably isn’t on the list.

However, dropping Lyons and playing another player isn’t giving up on the season.

I’m looking at replacing one underperforming player with a different look.

Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t, but it’s unlikely to be worse.

 

[Tom14]

You’re right, the answer probably isn’t on the list.

However, dropping Lyons and playing another player isn’t giving up on the season.

I’m looking at replacing one underperforming player with a different look.

Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t, but it’s unlikely to be worse.

Not an unreasonable point of view. I think it’s probably more likely (just) that we see some improvement from JL but it’s a line ball decision.

 

[LIONS08]

I won't see him wanting to leave as cracking the shits attitude. It will be him taking his development path in his own hands and doing something about it. He could easily become a 200 gamer for eagles playing the same role he excelled in juniors.

Who’s spot does he take as a pure mid in our team… fagan has shown he wants players to be able to play more than one single position. Other than a handful of players.

 

[mpal6]

I don't think the answer to fix the inside mids is on the list at their current level of development this year.

I saw your tweet and I don't disagree with portions of it, I just can't get to the idea that shoving Dev, TBerry or Matho in for JL would do much. If you give up on the season and want to chuck them in there then sure, but I don't think thats a sensible decision from 3rd spot on the ladder when you've barely played a good game.

Maybe in 5 weeks it will be time though.

Lyons + Neale struggle to beat Melbourne in the middle, evidence is there for all to see. Dogs and even Blues might give us a touch up. If we're not working to find answers for this important part, then we are destined for a short run in terms of finals footy. It will be a shame coz this team with the right mix can go deep in finals. We need to stop being fixated and rigid about our combination in the middle and become more creative about it.

 

[LIONS08]

So Dev goes back to the 2s and only gets 35 disposals. Not good enough to get back in the seniors if the way Matho is being treated is a guide.

So who’s spot as a mid does Matho take? Lyons or Neale?

 

[bato]

Lester the medi-sub apparently.

 

[briztoon]

Nah.

Fagan got us from percentages (more predictive of future success than win/losses) 61% to 74% to 89% in two seasons. Bring in Neale and Lyons and we got to 118%. Improvement isn't linear, but arguably Fagan alone provided the same improvement as Neale and Lyons combined.

But we don’t take that big step up without Neale and Lyons.

I don’t know how anyone can try to argue against that.

Yes, Fagan is a good coach, and had us moving in the right direction. I’m not saying a good coach doesn’t make a difference. A bad one certainly does.

But we don’t dramatically improve in one off season without Neale and Lyons.

Would Clarko or Mitchell or Longmuir have us performing better with our current list?

Talent wins games, and we added a lot of experienced talent in one hit.

Now one of those two players looks to be out of form or declining, and our performances look to be suffering because of that.

I don’t believe that’s a coincidence.

 

[scoman]

I assume the only reason is because Fages doesn’t like dropping players after one game. The problem with that in this case is Jimmy probably didn’t have the reserves form to begin with to warrant the first and then, subsequently a second.

On young Arthur, I think many of us were excited about him during the pre season. His form in the intraclubs and pre season was quite good. He seemed to be playing on the ball quite a bit and kicking goals as well. I have to admit I have hardly noticed him in the VFL games of late and I think that's largely because he has been moved to the outside. I remember thinking about him a couple of weeks ago, wondering what had happened with him and reasoning that he must have been moved off the ball to help develop his outside game, which is a fairly common situation. I was absolutely shocked when he got the call up last week.

 

[briztoon]

Not an unreasonable point of view. I think it’s probably more likely (just) that we see some improvement from JL but it’s a line ball decision.

Do you believe JL is in a form slump, or do you believe age and declining abilities have hit him early?

 

[Tom14]

Do you believe JL is in a form slump, or do you believe age and declining abilities have hit him early?

All of the above, but I don't rate our backup options at all right now.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

But we don’t take that big step up without Neale and Lyons.

I don’t know how anyone can try to argue against that.

Yes, Fagan is a good coach, and had us moving in the right direction. I’m not saying a good coach doesn’t make a difference. A bad one certainly does.

But we don’t dramatically improve in one off season without Neale and Lyons.

Would Clarko or Mitchell or Longmuir have us performing better with our current list?

Talent wins games, and we added a lot of experienced talent in one hit.

Now one of those two players looks to be out of form or declining, and our performances look to be suffering because of that.

I don’t believe that’s a coincidence.

So what you're saying is that it's not one thing, but a combination of many. That's the explanation for most things in life, let alone footy.

 

[martinson]

I said it on Twitter in Mike Whitings thread, Fages and the match committee keep rotating the magnets on the edges of the team, hoping to hit on a winner, when the problems are deeper in the team.

We can rotate through all the wingers in the world, but it won’t change that our problems start and end inside the midfield, not outside it.

We’ve got the mix wrong in their, and a keep playing an out of form Lyons.

Until Fages fixes our inside midfield, doesn’t matter who plays wing.

It's like playing chess.

You can move your pawns around any way you like , sometimes you make a little difference , but if you don't have the firepower backing it up all you do is delay the inevitable.

 

[Tom14]

Lyons + Neale struggle to beat Melbourne in the middle, evidence is there for all to see. Dogs and even Blues might give us a touch up. If we're not working to find answers for this important part, then we are destined for a short run in terms of finals footy. It will be a shame coz this team with the right mix can go deep in finals. We need to stop being fixated and rigid about our combination in the middle and become more creative about it.

Maybe we are destined for a short finals run. But its not like we have a top 10 draft pick inside mid toiling away in the 2s or being played out of position like Parish was at Essendon last year - Dev and T Berry were second round picks, matho was third round 7 years ago. T berry wasn't even really drafted as an inside mid.

My mid solution would probably be to play rayner in there as much as physically possible. Or, be willing to have an extra at the stoppage or play a spare behind the ball to try mop up if we lose the clearance better.

I'm not even that enthused about Lyons or believing he can get back to his best - I just think people are so desperate after last week for any kind of change, and would like a player to be sacrificed because they had a shit thursday night, and as such are talking themselves into the idea that a player that has been in the 2s all year is the solution.

 

[martinson]

It's like playing chess.

You can move your pawns around any way you like , sometimes you make a little difference , but if you don't have the firepower backing it up all you do is delay the inevitable.

Clearly we're lacking grunt in the midfield.

No one's fault ,we've done well with the cards we've been dealt.

But if we want to be a fearsome contending side that others don't want to play we need 2 more bulls inside. And more ferocity from our forward and back half.

You're asking the impossible to have that happen overnight or perhaps at all ,but that's what we need to be aiming for to win a flag.

 

[martinson]

Maybe we are destined for a short finals run. But its not like we have a top 10 draft pick inside mid toiling away in the 2s or being played out of position like Parish was at Essendon last year - Dev and T Berry were second round picks, matho was third round 7 years ago. T berry wasn't even really drafted as an inside mid.

My mid solution would probably be to play rayner in there as much as physically possible. Or, be willing to have an extra at the stoppage or play a spare behind the ball to try mop up if we lose the clearance better.

I'm not even that enthused about Lyons or believing he can get back to his best - I just think people are so desperate after last week for any kind of change, and would like a player to be sacrificed because they had a s**t thursday night, and as such are talking themselves into the idea that a player that has been in the 2s all year is the solution.

Correct.

I think some of our selections and the way we've used players has been incorrect.

But the players I'm talking about wouldn't make that big a difference to dramatically change the outcomes.

If Lyons isn't carrying something or there's no other excuse I'd say he's just about done. But he's still going to do better than anyone else we could replace him with this year. Including Matho.

The players we need to really work on to strengthen them up and give us more drive are Bailey , Rayner , Ah Chee , Starcevich, Prior , Lohman, amongst others. And strive for full commitment and consistency from Daniher , Cameron ,Andrews, Adams , McCarthy , and anyone else who holds a permanent spot.

There's no magic wand. We have the building blocks . Make the good players we have as good as they can be and look around to add other good players if we can .

As far as Fagan goes he's taken us from nothing to talking about axeing blokes because the best side in the comp gave us a towelling so despite what I see as his faults , overall he's been awesome.

 

[briztoon]

So what you're saying is that it's not one thing, but a combination of many. That's the explanation for most things in life, let alone footy.

No I’m 100% saying it was one thing, because all those other things were already in place here.

I get the whole, “but if Fagan wasn’t here…” argument.

But that is irrelevant to the point I’m making.

If Neale and Lyons don’t arrive at the end of 2018, we don’t improve to a top 4 team.

 

[martinson]

No I’m 100% saying it was one thing, because all those other things were already in place here.

I get the whole, “but if Fagan wasn’t here…” argument.

But that is irrelevant to the point I’m making.

If Neale and Lyons don’t arrive at the end of 2018, we don’t improve to a top 4 team.

That's cool Britzoon but whether Fagan's a genius or a dud or something in between is irrelevant now. Clearly he's a good coach. It's how we manage our situation from hereon in as to whether we can contend for a few years or fall away.

So I think this next phase is crucial.

 

[BigCat2]

No I’m 100% saying it was one thing, because all those other things were already in place here.

I get the whole, “but if Fagan wasn’t here…” argument.

But that is irrelevant to the point I’m making.

If Neale and Lyons don’t arrive at the end of 2018, we don’t improve to a top 4 team.

If Leppa had still been coaching us, Cameron, Hodge, Neale, Lyons would not have come to us.

 

[DERRINALPHIL]

So who’s spot as a mid does Matho take? Lyons or Neale?

I would put him in the 22 and play him.

 

[Pride of lions]

Why has Ah Chee been promoted? He was dropped a couple of weeks ago and now he is back in. He was terrible in the reserves last week, wasn’t in the best players from what I saw. So doesn’t seem to have been picked on form. Surely we could have put Matho in to rotate off the bench with Lyons, Neale and Rayner,instead of Tunstill who presumably will be rotating with the wingers. I would have thought it would be better to have more rotations through the midfield rather than the wing,especially when we don’t use our wingers much anyway. And with our midfield severely lacking in grunt.
I don’t understand what the selectors are basing their selections on, it’s certainly not based on performance in the VFL.

 

[martinson]

Why has Ah Chee been promoted? He was dropped a couple of weeks ago and now he is back in. He was terrible in the reserves last week, wasn’t in the best players from what I saw. So doesn’t seem to have been picked on form. Surely we could have put Matho in to rotate off the bench with Lyons, Neale and Rayner,instead of Tunstill who presumably will be rotating with the wingers. I would have thought it would be better to have more rotations through the midfield rather than the wing,especially when we don’t use our wingers much anyway. And with our midfield severely lacking in grunt.
I don’t understand what the selectors are basing their selections on, it’s certainly not based on performance in the VFL.

Ah Chee is one of the first players I'd pick and has a lot of improvement in him.

But each to their own.

 

[briztoon]

If Leppa had still been coaching us, Cameron, Hodge, Neale, Lyons would not have come to us.

I know, but that has nothing to do with the point I am making.

 

[Tom14]

Ah Chee is one of the first players I'd pick and has a lot of improvement in him.

But each to their own.

One of Ah Chee or Prior should be in the team every week.

Priors game against the Hawks is probably the best game off the wing from someone other than Berry all year.

 

[briztoon]

One of Ah Chee or Prior should be in the team every week.

I’d have both.

Ah Chee playing back in place of Answerth, Prior on a wing.

 

[On the quiet]

Won't blame Dev if he asks to be traded end of this year. He should be playing in the middle and Eagles would provide that opportunity.

yes I am surprised he is out. Lyons looked sore last week and has not been setting the place on fire. WA kid who I assume family still reside there, would not blame him for seeking a release.