Review Round 23, 2022 - Brisbane Lions vs. Melbourne

[JasRulz63]

It's frustrating that one of the few moves we've made this year that showed some flexibility is Lyons spending more time up forward because he was a liability through the midfield, and bringing Mathieson in to share his midfield time and giving up another runner/pressure forward instead of just dropping Lyons.

Allowing for personnel differences due to injury (Hipwood and Payne in for Fort and Adams), the main difference structure wise between this game and the one vs. Sydney in round 7 is that we now have Mathieson in for Ah Chee (I feel like Prior would've missed out if Ah Chee got up).

So when it comes to forward half pressure from our front 6, you have three talls that don't chase (McStay was our best but has checked out) and Lyons/Matho who aren't known for their speed/defensive running. It's no real surprise we're one of the worst sides at defending scores from defensive 50.

 

[briztoon]

players hear it, they might not directly listen to it but they would of heard what fages would of said, the reality is we have a final in 2 weeks what would you of preferred, he come out and smash them publicly over the performance ?

Don’t know.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Forward pressure wasn’t an issue it was losing almost every contest in our forwardline which was the issue

 

[davemc_lions]

Forward pressure wasn’t an issue it was losing almost every contest in our forwardline which was the issue

A lot of our forward 50 kicks went straight to a demons player.
Pretty hard to pressure when the closest you get to the ball is when the umpire says STAND.

 

[Thomasno]

I would probably add Geelong and Richmond to that list as well imo. I actually think that was an honest chat, it looks like they aren't mentally switched on/spooked or something when they play Melbourne, at least from an outsides perspective. Maybe it is just that they are physically a lot bigger than us in the midfield. We had Matho in there as our big body. Petracca/Oliver/Jackson is like a giant midfielder. We are just too focussed on them than the ball.

We’ve got a good record against Geelong, we match up well against them. The last 3 times we’ve played them, we’ve twice lost by tiny margins at Goomba while playing like shit, and the one game at the Gabba where we played well we absolutely dismantled them.

I think we can beat Richmond readily too, **** knows what happened last month.

 

[JasRulz63]

Forward pressure wasn’t an issue it was losing almost every contest in our forwardline which was the issue

You're probably right. I don't see the point in playing three tall forwards that combine for 11 marks, while Melbourne took ~20 intercept marks.

They were saying at half time that teams give up an average of ~30 points from defensive half per game; Melbourne were up to 48 points at half time.

 

[Thomasno]

players hear it, they might not directly listen to it but they would of heard what fages would of said, the reality is we have a final in 2 weeks what would you of preferred, he come out and smash them publicly over the performance ?

At least acknowledge that it was a disappointing performance and they know they can play a lot better than that

 

[Paul Mac]

Was thinking about the Zorko drama today. I think alot of people have mentioned on here frustration with Zorko's undisciplined acts over the last few years especially as our captain whether that be with free kicks or giving away 50 metre penalties. You would like to think Fages, or someone at the club surely would have been drumming into him that certain aspects of his game are unacceptable as a captain on the field? Or has no-one really pulled him up at the club and that's why he is still doing silly sh*t on the field? Is it because he has been getting away with it for so long that no-one has really questioned him? I find it very hard to believe over a period of years that no-one has pulled him aside but who knows?

 

[SRH17]

I remember going to an open day in Fages first or second year and having a chat to him. He asked how the players were to us, were they respectful. Aside from that day I have come across the captain a couple of times and that’s the last word I would use to describe him.

 

[M Malice]

You're probably right. I don't see the point in playing three tall forwards that combine for 11 marks, while Melbourne took ~20 intercept marks.

They were saying at half time that teams give up an average of ~30 points from defensive half per game; Melbourne were up to 48 points at half time.

IMO the worst place to turn the ball over is centrally around your own attacking 50 meter arc, players are streaming forward in numbers and are all caught out on turnover, also doesn't help that generally we are not a fast/hard running defensive side.

At least if you turn it over down back you are usually well structured up defensively.

 

[Quested]

What's the chances we'll appeal Rayner's suspension? Absolute BS that Ah Chee still out while Cripps got off with nothing. Surely we've got a case

 

[lioninthesand]

The sad reality of it was being at the game for the most part our players looked like they were legit trying their hearts out and Melbourne just seemed to benefit from every lucky bounce and they'd kick flukey goals out of their arses when we had to work hard for ours.

Watching Melbourne last night was like watching a team of Androids v Men, they were perfectly drilled and positioned all over the ground. It's deflating that they are a teir above us and we have no response for their gameplan and pressure, so tired of losing to Melbourne. We're their bunnies and that doesn't look likely to change anytime soon, we just don't match up well against them at all.

I think we were trying, but clearly we were overwhelmed by the occasion.

I also don’t subscribe to the notion they had ‘luck’ - they were on, playing on instinct, things went their way because they were a step ahead and playing with freedom.

The way the mids stood flat footed, the way we ‘caravanned’ (browny) them around the ground all night, the way our defenders were 20 meters off their oppo, the way we half tackled and threw a lazy arm out as the side stepped us, they way we continued to bomb it long to 2 and 3 on ones ALL NIGHT - it didn’t look like ‘trying’ very hard. But I agree in essence they were trying.

However, that’s what a team looks like when they are reactionary. And a team becomes reactionary when they inherently do not believe they can win. When they are waiting for the oppo to dictate their next move. When they have a ‘what is the next problem I have to do deal with’ instead of a ‘what winning action am I going to make next’, a team stops playing on instinct. You feel like you’re playing with a 20kg concrete vest on.

I also think we were overloaded going into the game. Clearly we were asked to play a pysical brand which just turned to off the ball BS. Clearly we were told to pick off players in the cooridire which lead to TO. We were given instruction and we arnt really a ‘go out and do this’ team. We are a ‘go out and play on instinct, keep the ball in our half and score’ team.

I think we were trying and desperately wanted to do well but I don’t think Melbourne are that much better than us. We were just completely overwhelmed mentally by the occasion, became reactionary and don’t have ‘pillars’ to our game we can fall back on.

We have to remember that Fagan philosophy is ‘we are in the entertainment business’ and ‘I know you have to score to win’ - which I am not necessarily againts. I get it, being from a non AFL state and they have made us by far the best scoring team in the comp which is impressive.

But once that’s taken away, which I predicted it would be on the Wednesday before, that’s it - we are done.

I said going in ‘they are too good at what we are not good at’ - they can have an off night and still win. That’s why the look like millionaires when they play us, they go out with ABSOLUTE confidence they have the blue print to win, and after 2 minutes they went ‘yep - nothing has changed’.

And for us - a team who knows they don’t have the answers, then loses belief, once they lose belief, you get what you saw Friday night.

We need to overhaul the game plan, we are still playing the same way we did 3 years ago, we just used to defend then.

We need to scrap the ‘entertainment business’ approach and build a different foundation to our game. We need a foundation to our game than can win if it’s a dour slug Fest as well as a shootout.

We also need to increase our leg speed across the ground to give players the confidence they can’t be outrun.

We also need to apply standards to our group, ‘you don’t do this, you don’t play’ - at the moment there a very few standards and if there are, players are not adhering to them.

A lot to fix, we have a lot right, we have a good culture, good talent, good people at the helm. We just need to be guided to that next level.

 

[lioninthesand]

Was thinking about the Zorko drama today. I think alot of people have mentioned on here frustration with Zorko's undisciplined acts over the last few years especially as our captain whether that be with free kicks or giving away 50 metre penalties. You would like to think Fages, or someone at the club surely would have been drumming into him that certain aspects of his game are unacceptable as a captain on the field? Or has no-one really pulled him up at the club and that's why he is still doing silly sh*t on the field? Is it because he has been getting away with it for so long that no-one has really questioned him? I find it very hard to believe over a period of years that no-one has pulled him aside but who knows?

The big annoyance for me is it happened to really poor level againts the saints, then carried straight into Melbourne. Just unacceptable that his personal frustration and selfish undisciplined approach was just allowed to simmer away as captain unchecked (by himself and the coaches) again, no standards.

Best thing he can do is come out and not say a single work to an oppo player in our final, play his best game of the year and make those around him walk taller through his game not niggle.

 

[Fitzroy bears]

I love Fagan for what he has done for our club, but I wonder weather he has the ability to be the demanding coach, a bit of brutal. It seems on the outside he will back in the players all the time regardless of the situation and seems the playing group know this and are getting a little comfortable with the coach

 

[briztoon]

What's the chances we'll appeal Rayner's suspension? Absolute BS that Ah Chee still out while Cripps got off with nothing. Surely we've got a case

We were one of the clubs to borrow money from the AFL during 2020 & 2021.

Part of the conditions of borrowing that money is that the AFL have approve all our expenses.

So the AFL will have to tick off us appealing Rayner’s suspension, as they will be paying for our side of the legal proceedings.

 

[JoeDanihersMoustache]

Same - I was at a club function one night, it involved booze and suites and ties. I was walking down a hallway, me and him were the only ones in the hallway on the way to the toilet and were walking toward each other. I didn’t gesture to stop for a chat or anything, and admit I was a bit star struck. I just smiled and said ‘Zorks, how are you Mate’ and he half smiled gave me a funny look with his chest puffed out and a bit of swagger, then he did this slow whistle as he walked past then sang a song really loud as he went into the gents.

Not a hangable offence or anything but it was almost semi-aggressive in a weird way, just oozed with arrogance and clearly gave a vibe of, ‘don’t look at me, don’t talk to me you pleb’ - held a strange view of him ever since.

Funny to read a lot of people having had similar experiences here and in other forms of social media, obviously increased by the pile on. I’ve also heard nice stories about him though.

That’s a bit disappointing

Continuing story time I went to school with Charlie and during art class (year 9 - 13 or 14 yrs old) Darryl White would sit with him (while we were all off doing our paintings, clay modelling etc) and have a chat. It was a bit surreal doing a painting with Darryl White chilling in the corner of the room.

 

[On the quiet]

Some of the reaction has been over the top, but the manner of the capitulation justifies a lot of the chat that has been going on post the game IMO.

This is a forum specifically for that purpose.

Agree some of the reaction is over the top. But IMO if we don't make Prelim we have regressed and there needs to be some changes, not Fages but some assistant coaches and some senior players.
The capitulation does justify some of the post. Top 4 spot on the line at the GABBA and over by the end of the first Q. I thought we would have to play very well to beat the Demons even at the GABBA but find it hard to accept that performance. Demons were in cruise control throughout the second half so I won't accept we won the second half or were better with contested footy blah blah blah.

 

[martinson]

It was evident that we just weren't switched on from the start of Friday's match.

But to me Melbourne is a much better team than us over most of the ground and as you tend to do we overrate some of our players. And the players know it.

That doesn't mean we can't get better and particularly put on a better showing but we've played them enough times now to see the class difference when they're playing to their capabilities.

 

[On the quiet]

Was speaking to one of the Senior players who played last night, at the VFL today and he said that there is just something about Melbourne, the team is really confident of beating any team but he said Melbourne he just doesn’t know (maybe it is a mental thing) he said.
Other than them, anyone anywhere. Boys are having a 3 or 4 day break after recovery, before preparing for finals.
It was a really good little chat.

I hope Carlton win today I rather play the Dogs then the Tigers.

 

[dlanod]

We were one of the clubs to borrow money from the AFL during 2020 & 2021.

Part of the conditions of borrowing that money is that the AFL have approve all our expenses.

So the AFL will have to tick off us appealing Rayner’s suspension, as they will be paying for our side of the legal proceedings.

I don't see this being an issue given the AFL hasn't knocked back any club's right to appeal under this logic, including us with Robbo.

 

[On the quiet]

I think we were trying, but clearly we were overwhelmed by the occasion.

I also don’t subscribe to the notion they had ‘luck’ - they were on, playing on instinct, things went their way because they were a step ahead and playing with freedom.

The way the mids stood flat footed, the way we ‘caravanned’ (browny) them around the ground all night, the way our defenders were 20 meters off their oppo, the way we half tackled and threw a lazy arm out as the side stepped us, they way we continued to bomb it long to 2 and 3 on ones ALL NIGHT - it didn’t look like ‘trying’ very hard. But I agree in essence they were trying.

However, that’s what a team looks like when they are reactionary. And a team becomes reactionary when they inherently do not believe they can win. When they are waiting for the oppo to dictate their next move. When they have a ‘what is the next problem I have to do deal with’ instead of a ‘what winning action am I going to make next’, a team stops playing on instinct. You feel like you’re playing with a 20kg concrete vest on.

I also think we were overloaded going into the game. Clearly we were asked to play a pysical brand which just turned to off the ball BS. Clearly we were told to pick off players in the cooridire which lead to TO. We were given instruction and we arnt really a ‘go out and do this’ team. We are a ‘go out and play on instinct, keep the ball in our half and score’ team.

I think we were trying and desperately wanted to do well but I don’t think Melbourne are that much better than us. We were just completely overwhelmed mentally by the occasion, became reactionary and don’t have ‘pillars’ to our game we can fall back on.

We have to remember that Fagan philosophy is ‘we are in the entertainment business’ and ‘I know you have to score to win’ - which I am not necessarily againts. I get it, being from a non AFL state and they have made us by far the best scoring team in the comp which is impressive.

But once that’s taken away, which I predicted it would be on the Wednesday before, that’s it - we are done.

I said going in ‘they are too good at what we are not good at’ - they can have an off night and still win. That’s why the look like millionaires when they play us, they go out with ABSOLUTE confidence they have the blue print to win, and after 2 minutes they went ‘yep - nothing has changed’.

And for us - a team who knows they don’t have the answers, then loses belief, once they lose belief, you get what you saw Friday night.

We need to overhaul the game plan, we are still playing the same way we did 3 years ago, we just used to defend then.

We need to scrap the ‘entertainment business’ approach and build a different foundation to our game. We need a foundation to our game than can win if it’s a dour slug Fest as well as a shootout.

We also need to increase our leg speed across the ground to give players the confidence they can’t be outrun.

We also need to apply standards to our group, ‘you don’t do this, you don’t play’ - at the moment there a very few standards and if there are, players are not adhering to them.

A lot to fix, we have a lot right, we have a good culture, good talent, good people at the helm. We just need to be guided to that next level.I

I think we were trying, but clearly we were overwhelmed by the occasion.

I also don’t subscribe to the notion they had ‘luck’ - they were on, playing on instinct, things went their way because they were a step ahead and playing with freedom.

The way the mids stood flat footed, the way we ‘caravanned’ (browny) them around the ground all night, the way our defenders were 20 meters off their oppo, the way we half tackled and threw a lazy arm out as the side stepped us, they way we continued to bomb it long to 2 and 3 on ones ALL NIGHT - it didn’t look like ‘trying’ very hard. But I agree in essence they were trying.

However, that’s what a team looks like when they are reactionary. And a team becomes reactionary when they inherently do not believe they can win. When they are waiting for the oppo to dictate their next move. When they have a ‘what is the next problem I have to do deal with’ instead of a ‘what winning action am I going to make next’, a team stops playing on instinct. You feel like you’re playing with a 20kg concrete vest on.

I also think we were overloaded going into the game. Clearly we were asked to play a pysical brand which just turned to off the ball BS. Clearly we were told to pick off players in the cooridire which lead to TO. We were given instruction and we arnt really a ‘go out and do this’ team. We are a ‘go out and play on instinct, keep the ball in our half and score’ team.

I think we were trying and desperately wanted to do well but I don’t think Melbourne are that much better than us. We were just completely overwhelmed mentally by the occasion, became reactionary and don’t have ‘pillars’ to our game we can fall back on.

We have to remember that Fagan philosophy is ‘we are in the entertainment business’ and ‘I know you have to score to win’ - which I am not necessarily againts. I get it, being from a non AFL state and they have made us by far the best scoring team in the comp which is impressive.

But once that’s taken away, which I predicted it would be on the Wednesday before, that’s it - we are done.

I said going in ‘they are too good at what we are not good at’ - they can have an off night and still win. That’s why the look like millionaires when they play us, they go out with ABSOLUTE confidence they have the blue print to win, and after 2 minutes they went ‘yep - nothing has changed’.

And for us - a team who knows they don’t have the answers, then loses belief, once they lose belief, you get what you saw Friday night.

We need to overhaul the game plan, we are still playing the same way we did 3 years ago, we just used to defend then.

We need to scrap the ‘entertainment business’ approach and build a different foundation to our game. We need a foundation to our game than can win if it’s a dour slug Fest as well as a shootout.

We also need to increase our leg speed across the ground to give players the confidence they can’t be outrun.

We also need to apply standards to our group, ‘you don’t do this, you don’t play’ - at the moment there a very few standards and if there are, players are not adhering to them.

A lot to fix, we have a lot right, we have a good culture, good talent, good people at the helm. We just need to be guided to that next level.

I would argue Melbourne have a far superior midfield and ruck than us. Their backs, especially the three talls are better than ours, perhaps the forward line and wings even themselves out.
We get to the next level by removing some of the senior players at years end (Rich, Robo, Lyons etc) and a shake up of some of the assistant coaches new 'set of eyes' so to speak. Play some of the youth at the beginning of the season, even if we drop off in 2023, so we can have a crack in 2024/2025.
That said can beat the Dogs at the GABBA, not sure on Richmond though.

 

[Elixuh]

We were one of the clubs to borrow money from the AFL during 2020 & 2021.

Part of the conditions of borrowing that money is that the AFL have approve all our expenses.

So the AFL will have to tick off us appealing Rayner’s suspension, as they will be paying for our side of the legal proceedings.

If that’s true the AFL will not stop a club from exercising a right under its own system. Would bring unnecessary negative press.

 

[Sanchez365]

I decided to watch the first quarter to see how bad it was as I missed the game on Friday. Wow.

So many players looking to not take responsibility, Answerth intercepts the ball in the middle of the ground, turns around and kicks 40m backwards to Andrews. McStay missing McCarthy streaming wide open into the F50, Gardiner missing a wide open switch with two players open. Cameron missing a leading McStay on the half forward line. We were not even close.

On top of that our mids lost the first 4-5 midfield contests and our defenders couldn't hand over a player to save themselves. Payne just letting brown run off when there was no screen on him at all and calling Andrews in? Wtf was he thinking. I also don't think I've seen Starcevich lose every single contest in a quarter before.

Literally the entire team looked garbage. How does McStay not contest the ruck in the center bounce? It was overall laughably bad, and I only saw the first quarter.

It looked like they wanted to try hard, but you could see after they kicked two quick goals Melbourne perceived pressure was all over us. Noone wanted to bend over to try and pick the ball up, just wanted to punt it forward rushed for some reason.

 

[M Malice]

I would argue Melbourne have a far superior midfield and ruck than us. Their backs, especially the three talls are better than ours, perhaps the forward line and wings even themselves out.
We get to the next level by removing some of the senior players at years end (Rich, Robo, Lyons etc) and a shake up of some of the assistant coaches new 'set of eyes' so to speak. Play some of the youth at the beginning of the season, even if we drop off in 2023, so we can have a crack in 2024/2025.
That said can beat the Dogs at the GABBA, not sure on Richmond though.

Sounds like it's a player personnel issue not a coaching one.... a great man/coach once said great players make great coaches not vice versa.

 

[morsie]

I think we were trying, but clearly we were overwhelmed by the occasion.

I also don’t subscribe to the notion they had ‘luck’ - they were on, playing on instinct, things went their way because they were a step ahead and playing with freedom.

The way the mids stood flat footed, the way we ‘caravanned’ (browny) them around the ground all night, the way our defenders were 20 meters off their oppo, the way we half tackled and threw a lazy arm out as the side stepped us, they way we continued to bomb it long to 2 and 3 on ones ALL NIGHT - it didn’t look like ‘trying’ very hard. But I agree in essence they were trying.

However, that’s what a team looks like when they are reactionary. And a team becomes reactionary when they inherently do not believe they can win. When they are waiting for the oppo to dictate their next move. When they have a ‘what is the next problem I have to do deal with’ instead of a ‘what winning action am I going to make next’, a team stops playing on instinct. You feel like you’re playing with a 20kg concrete vest on.

I also think we were overloaded going into the game. Clearly we were asked to play a pysical brand which just turned to off the ball BS. Clearly we were told to pick off players in the cooridire which lead to TO. We were given instruction and we arnt really a ‘go out and do this’ team. We are a ‘go out and play on instinct, keep the ball in our half and score’ team.

I think we were trying and desperately wanted to do well but I don’t think Melbourne are that much better than us. We were just completely overwhelmed mentally by the occasion, became reactionary and don’t have ‘pillars’ to our game we can fall back on.

We have to remember that Fagan philosophy is ‘we are in the entertainment business’ and ‘I know you have to score to win’ - which I am not necessarily againts. I get it, being from a non AFL state and they have made us by far the best scoring team in the comp which is impressive.

But once that’s taken away, which I predicted it would be on the Wednesday before, that’s it - we are done.

I said going in ‘they are too good at what we are not good at’ - they can have an off night and still win. That’s why the look like millionaires when they play us, they go out with ABSOLUTE confidence they have the blue print to win, and after 2 minutes they went ‘yep - nothing has changed’.

And for us - a team who knows they don’t have the answers, then loses belief, once they lose belief, you get what you saw Friday night.

We need to overhaul the game plan, we are still playing the same way we did 3 years ago, we just used to defend then.

We need to scrap the ‘entertainment business’ approach and build a different foundation to our game. We need a foundation to our game than can win if it’s a dour slug Fest as well as a shootout.

We also need to increase our leg speed across the ground to give players the confidence they can’t be outrun.

We also need to apply standards to our group, ‘you don’t do this, you don’t play’ - at the moment there a very few standards and if there are, players are not adhering to them.

A lot to fix, we have a lot right, we have a good culture, good talent, good people at the helm. We just need to be guided to that next level.

We seem to be beaten before we start against Melbourne.Blowed if I know how to fix it.