Autopsy Round 5, 2022: Hawks skin the Cats

[eldorado]

This isn't rugby union. It's a 360 degree game played at high intensity for 2 hours with WAY too many rules in place that are literally down to an umpires interpretation. Expecting players not to react to sudden decisions in the heat of the moment is absurd.

You think there are no contentious decisions in rugby union?

How the players behave towards the ref has nothing to do with the nature of the sport, it has to do with the culture that has evolved and has been accepted.

I'm not saying the AFL has got it right with this (raising arms is not necessarily 'dissent' in my book), but players in any sport can control aggressive impulses if they know they will be sanctioned for them. It's behaviourism 101.

 

[cryptor]

I think this would only work with in two scenarios...

1. as we already have, with quantifiable line calls, that can be corrected on replay. e.g the ball either crossed the line, or it didn't. ...it touched the hand, or it didn't...The on-field umpire has made an objectively quantifiable error, which can be corrected by reliable technology. (irony intended regarding 'reliable technology')

2. the umpire declares himself 'unsighted', and refers the decision to video technology

I don't think it would be helpful to refer an umpire's subjective interpretation, made within an instant from close range, to another subjective umpire, who then undermines the field umpires authority by declaring his interpretation 'wrong'

I don't think it undermines the umpire who made the call. I think every reasonable person knows that field umpires have a ridiculously tough job having to run the distance they do while simultaneously interpreting and applying some pretty complex rules, often from distances and angles that limit their ability to see all the pertinent information required to make a decision. Then on top of that they need to make the decision quickly and confidently without the ability to review the play. Mistakes will be made, that's a given.

To have that decision reviewed by another umpire who has the luxury to spend 30s or so reviewing the moment from 6 different angles in super slow motion from the comfort of a private, climate controlled operations room, and then potentially overturn the call isn't about undermining the umpire, it's about upholding the integrity of the result.

And anyway, the precedent for this is already in the game. The ARC reviews and can potentially overturn scoring decisions from goal umpires even if they never indicated doubt or called for a score review. I'm not suggesting they review field umpire decisions like this (reviewing and potentially overturning every decision), just pointing out that the AFL already overturns goal umpires decisions without them calling for the review.

 

[Blackhawk42]

What, you think there are no contentious decisions in rugby union?

How the players behave towards the ref has nothing to do with the nature of the sport, it has to do with the culture that has evolved and has been accepted.

I'm not saying the AFL has got it right with this (raising arms is not necessarily 'dissent' in my book), but players in any sport can control aggressive impulses if they know they will be sanctioned for them. It's behaviourism 101.

Is that what we want in the game though? To further diminish the players ability to show any raw emotion in major moments? We already bemoan the robotic image that is portrayed in player interviews. Literally making a rule that says 'don't act surprised or you'll be penalised' is only going to cause greater seperation between player, umpire and supporter. It certainly won't improve respect from supporters towards umpires. It creates an entirely different problem IMO.

 

[Gut Runner]

Please no 'video referral', just no no no. Game goes for 3 hrs + do not drag it out longer. Only works for goal decisions because they have the break between goals already.

Just make the game easier to adjudicate.

Get rid of the bounce - wastes 3mins a game calling back the ball - just throw it up in the first place - plus gets umps who could do a good job but can't master the bounce into the game resulting in better umpires.

Paint a line past the goal line 9m, make it so umps don't have to think about an imaginary line to call players back to - easier to umpire

Allow blocking - If teams are prepared to outnumber the forwards they should be able to stand and hold ground wherever they want - this blocking is the hardest rule to determine - they reward players who do it "smart" because they hide it, it is just too hard to get right.

Some simple changes to make it easier for umps, just my suggestions and some people won't like it, just feel we need to make the game simple for umps.

 

[Dipper]

They train the umpires to look for specific signals of wrong doing. Like ‘Arms out is a free’ and ‘a fend off is prior’. This is where their focus is. They don’t see Hawkins flying through the air after a soft contact by frost. They see a marking contest and they are looking for a sign that Hawkins was blocked at the exclusion of everything else. They aren’t looking for a flop so they don’t see it. It is called selective attention and the afl train umpires in such a way that they invoke selective attention all the time.

White made 13 passes.

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[kazzooka]

Geelong have been sooking about decisions and collectively, intentionally trying to influence umpires for the last decade or so.

It's actually worked to a large extent.

I hate seeing players concerned with umpiring. I like Jai Newcombe's approach to footy. Goes hard. Gets his head ripped off, keeps going. Has no idea where the umpire is, just keeps at it.

Compared to other players who cop a slightly high tackle and whip their head around to where the umpire is pleading for free kicks. And then wave their arms around when they don't get one.

If this new rule weeds out that second type of player then good. I'm happy about it.
If the new rule instead weeds out players genuinely asking for clarification then I'm not happy about it.

This will be an unpopular take - but what were Gunston and Mitchell hoping to achieve? They were clearly saying to the umpire it was a bullshit call. They weren't asking for clarification so they could better engage in the next contest. They were pointing out bullshit. I would much rather they didn't.

My junior coach used to tell us, if the umpire pays a free stand the mark and put your hands up.

There is no reason to explain to an umpire why they made a mistake or missed a free or complain. Only thing you should be doing is trying to understand who the free kick is to so you can defend or return to the correct player. If the opportunity does come up you could politely ask things like "who was that free against?" or "was should i be doing to not give away a free in that contest?"

 

[grumbleguts]

My junior coach used to tell us, if the umpire pays a free stand the mark and put your hands up.

There is no reason to explain to an umpire why they made a mistake or missed a free or complain. Only thing you should be doing is trying to understand who the free kick is to so you can defend or return to the correct player. If the opportunity does come up you could politely ask things like "who was that free against?" or "was should i be doing to not give away a free in that contest?"

Then he's an idiot, because this would cost you a fifty.

 

[Kil Phearns]

For all the Geelongification of the game, the Cats still aren't good enough to win a flag.

 

[kazzooka]

Then he's an idiot, because this would cost you a fifty.

Not in 1997 it wouldn't. And i mean arms straight up in the air defending the mark not appealing or complaining to an umpire.

 

[JustKickIt]

For all the Geelongification of the game, the Cats still aren't good enough to win a flag.

.... and I'm ok with that

 

[CD Xbow]

For all the Geelongification of the game, the Cats still aren't good enough to win a flag.

........and they might appoint Scott for another 3 years!!! Seems he's back in favour.

 

[grumbleguts]

Not in 1997 it wouldn't. And i mean arms straight up in the air defending the mark not appealing or complaining to an umpire.

I kind of got that... just quietly.

 

[Brishawk]

White made 13 passes.

Sent from my SM-A326B using BigFooty.com mobile app

Did you watch the whole video?

 

[grumbleguts]

You can always ask the question. And they won’t punish you for that. It’s arm theatrics they will punish.

Umps endeavour for consistency, the biggest compensation power trip they can but they just won’t catch everything.

If they sometimes admitted they got it wrong, but also said they can't do anything about it until the review later in the week, they actually earn the respect they so dependently crave. The fact that the biggest arm waving buffoon to ever play or coach is the one callig for this, means it actually has nothng to do with respect for the umpires and everything to do with creating more ways to subjectively rort games.

 

[grumbleguts]

Did you watch the whole video?

This is hilarious. This tiny little exchange made my morning. (from my memory of the video back in 2006, they actually tell you how many passes are made anyway.) Point sailed way over their head. (although it could also be one of the greatest tongue in cheek trolls of our generation)

 

[Leather Poisoning]

If they sometimes admitted they got it wrong, but also said they can't do anything about it until the review later in the week, they actually earn the respect they so dependently crave. The fact that the biggest arm waving buffoon to ever play or coach is the one callig for this, means it actually has nothng to do with respect for the umpires and everything to do with creating more ways to subjectively rort games.

Ironically - the view that umpires are out there on a power trip reinforces the need to do something about the lack of respect for them.

 

[KermitJagger]

They are not natural human reactions.
They are habits.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.0802686105

"The present research examined whether the recognizable nonverbal expressions associated with pride and shame may be biologically innate behavioral responses to success and failure. Specifically, we tested whether sighted, blind, and congenitally blind individuals across cultures spontaneously display pride and shame behaviors in response to the same success and failure situations—victory and defeat at the Olympic or Paralympic Games. Results showed that sighted, blind, and congenitally blind individuals from >30 nations displayed the behaviors associated with the prototypical pride expression in response to success. Sighted, blind, and congenitally blind individuals from most cultures also displayed behaviors associated with shame in response to failure."

Congenitally blind people exhibited the same body language in response to emotions, in this case shame and pride, to sighted people. People who have never visually seen what the normal response to those emotions should be.

Body language, particularly in highly emotional situations, is 100% a natural human reaction.

 

[Cyril says]

Former AFL umpire blows the whistle on dissent rule - ABC listen

Controversy about AFL's 'umpire dissent' rule has turned the spotlight on decisions made by the codes referees. A former AFL Umpire of 25 years says it's important to set these high standards of respect at a professional level.

www.abc.net.au

McInerney basically sums it up well - just stop worrying about the decision and get on with the game.

I love what Sam Mitchell said - players make way more mistakes than umpires, so they ought to be worrying about what they can control.

 

[Pessimistic]

For all the Geelongification of the game, the Cats still aren't good enough to win a flag.

Theoretically, the arms out rule takes a fair bit of thir tactics away

 

[Pessimistic]

Ironically - the view that umpires are out there on a power trip reinforces the need to do something about the lack of respect for them.

Goldspinks comments after retirement reinforce this

Some of them need significant professional help with personal traits which interfere with sound decision making

There may be a reason umpires at Lower levels make less contentious decisions

 

[KermitJagger]

Former AFL umpire blows the whistle on dissent rule - ABC listen

Controversy about AFL's 'umpire dissent' rule has turned the spotlight on decisions made by the codes referees. A former AFL Umpire of 25 years says it's important to set these high standards of respect at a professional level.

www.abc.net.au

McInerney basically sums it up well - just stop worrying about the decision and get on with the game.

I love what Sam Mitchell said - players make way more mistakes than umpires, so they ought to be worrying about what they can control.

I love a lot of what Sam says, but that was a line for the media. Of course players make more mistakes than the umpires, they make significantly more decisions which means there's significantly more opportunity to make mistakes.

At least when the NBA passed down more strict guidelines on conduct towards referees they also introduced the ability for teams to challenge fouls. I'd loathe to add a stop in play like that to the AFL but it's far more fair.

 

[Denver Day Lewis]

Players should worry about their own game, and focus on what they can influence. Which is why the Handbaggers have for years behaved in an unacceptable way towards the umpires, to try to control the outcome.

Umpires not only bring their personal biases and moods to the game, they directly influence the outcomes. Anyone who says otherwise is wilfully blind.

It all stems from inept direction from the AFL, particularly in the last 10 years.

Needs its own thread.

 

[Dipper]

Did you watch the whole video?

Yes and you know what, the gorilla didn't take even one possession.

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[Hawthorn23]

Bit late this week, and had a few copyright issues. Enjoy!

 

[Turly]

Been tossing up whether or not to post after the game. The last 2 weeks have been tough in terms of some personal issues I've been going through. My mental health has been up and down over the last 10 or so years and I fell to what would probably be one of the lowest points over that time. An event occurred and I just spiralled down.

My old man ended up coaxing me into using my membership for the first time this year. I was so certain I wouldn't attend as I just did not want to be in the public.

It's strange but I honestly don't have much more to say. The fight, courage and determination that this young group displayed was just astonishing to me. I was so sure they would roll over us after getting 2 goals up.

The final siren went and I just burst into tears for a good 2 or 3 minutes. I think it was just a build up of everything that had happened (personally) and the emotion of getting over the line when I didn't expect them too.

Looking back it was an amazing moment. I could not be more thankful for the performance they put out.

Thank you Hawthorn and thank you to my old man who convinced me into attending