Autopsy Round 5, 2022: Hawks skin the Cats

[lethalselbow]

Smith wasn’t even on the end of season trip in question.

Thanks. Then it was poor form by the poster suggesting that.

 

[Yardie]

As I posted on the main board, I can take an umpiring mistake, just as I can take player mistakes, that's life in a sport contested by humans. However, Hawkins' stage was so obvious, how could three umpires not see it? How could all three umpires lack the perception as to not see it?

I am pretty sure that the umpire that paid that free also had complete line of site of Jai getting head high contact later in the game and let it go.

 

[MinerBoy]

And rather than take the players protest as “mmm maybe I got that wrong”, they belligerently double down and give a ridiculous 50. Infuriating everyone. It’s unacceptable.

This is a big issue. For the most part players will adapt and curb what they call their "spontaneous insticts". However the moment a player won't maintain control will be precisiley when the absolute shocker is given at a crucial moment, and the follow up 50 will just exaggerate the initial umpire howler.

It's a sure fire way for umpires to lose respect, not enhance it. And it isn't even their fault as mistakes happen. If they are competent enough to earn an AFL umpiring gig they should be given the respect by the rule makers to be able to determine themselves when there has been abuse or clear dissent towards a decision, rather than simply being instructed to penalise any immediate act of frustration, which in most cases simply is a reaction that the player almost always simply gets on with straight after.

 

[MinerBoy]

Now that the Scott brothers have doubled down on the rules being clear and hunky dory I want to know why Sicily didn't get a second 50m penalty when Hawkins approached the umpire and raised his arms in protest.

Could have iced the game earlier, been good for my SC team, probably provided another Chris Scott meme but importantly been a consistent decion.

This is way more annoying to me than the Hawkins dive. Based on all we'd already seen that was a clear second 50 when he threw his arms out. Sic should have been kicking that from the goal line.

 

[grumbleguts]

Every score since 2008. Not every game, every single score.

 

[play2win]

I have a mate who is part of the umpiring fraternity (not a field umpire I must point out).

We were discussing all of this last night.

Everybody knows the golden rule is that an umpire won't change their mind on a decision. This should be exploited by them IMO. The biggest frustration is when they try and explain why a free kick was or wasn't paid when it was obviously incorrect. The amount of respect that would creep into the game for umpires from fans and players alike if, in the Tom Hawkins situation, rather than say 'umpire dissent, 50!" when Tom Mitchell points to the big screen at the obviously incorrect call is to say 'I may have gotten that wrong. We'll address it in our review. I can't change it now'.

This is key for me. Given this is the case, why do players say or do anything in response to a decision? it is simply a waste of energy and headspace, focus on what you‘re out there to do.

 

[grumbleguts]

Titus goes BANG!

THE TUESDAY KNEE JERK REACTION:
And then we had Tom Hawkins

26

Tom Hawkins

Age

36

Ht

197cm

Wt

105kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.2

3star

K

7.9

3star

HB

4.4

3star

M

5.5

5star

T

1.9

4star

G

2.1

5star

D

12.7

3star

K

8.6

3star

HB

4.1

3star

M

5.1

5star

T

2.1

3star

G

1.6

5star

D

7.8

2star

K

5.6

3star

HB

2.2

2star

M

4.2

4star

T

1.0

3star

G

2.2

5star

, launch himself into the air like a ballerina to get a free kick for a push in the back that wasn’t there.
There are astronauts who haven’t travelled as far as Hawkins did.
I’m not sure what photos Hawkins has of the umpires, but they must be pretty damning.
He gets free kicks for staging and then doesn’t give away free kicks when he infringes.
It didn’t get the Cats across the line though, this wasn’t played in Geelong.

 

[grumbleguts]

I have a mate who is part of the umpiring fraternity (not a field umpire I must point out).

We were discussing all of this last night.

Everybody knows the golden rule is that an umpire won't change their mind on a decision. This should be exploited by them IMO. The biggest frustration is when they try and explain why a free kick was or wasn't paid when it was obviously incorrect. The amount of respect that would creep into the game for umpires from fans and players alike if, in the Tom Hawkins situation, rather than say 'umpire dissent, 50!" when Tom Mitchell points to the big screen at the obviously incorrect call is to say 'I may have gotten that wrong. We'll address it in our review. I can't change it now'.

Brilliant post! Absolutely agree. Act like a grown up if you want to be treated like one.

 

[Blackhawk42]

This is key for me. Given this is the case, why do players say or do anything in response to a decision? it is simply a waste of energy and headspace, focus on what you‘re out there to do.

A natural human response is to question things you don't understand. If it's done respectfully it shouldn't be an issue. If part of that is having a surprised look (including your arms becoming horizontal) should a team be penalised so heavily?

Players careers can hang in the balance on a single decision paid at the wrong time. Who are the AFL to tell their most important employee not to show genuine human emotion in a high pressure moment?

 

[Pessimistic]

I am pretty sure that the umpire that paid that free also had complete line of site of Jai getting head high contact later in the game and let it go.

Was he the one who wanted to pay a free to Geelong 40m from goal with 43 seconds to go?

 

[Leather Poisoning]

Geelong have been sooking about decisions and collectively, intentionally trying to influence umpires for the last decade or so.

It's actually worked to a large extent.

I hate seeing players concerned with umpiring. I like Jai Newcombe's approach to footy. Goes hard. Gets his head ripped off, keeps going. Has no idea where the umpire is, just keeps at it.

Compared to other players who cop a slightly high tackle and whip their head around to where the umpire is pleading for free kicks. And then wave their arms around when they don't get one.

If this new rule weeds out that second type of player then good. I'm happy about it.
If the new rule instead weeds out players genuinely asking for clarification then I'm not happy about it.

This will be an unpopular take - but what were Gunston and Mitchell hoping to achieve? They were clearly saying to the umpire it was a bullshit call. They weren't asking for clarification so they could better engage in the next contest. They were pointing out bullshit. I would much rather they didn't.

 

[GOHORCS]

The players reactions, to a bad decision especially, is almost impossible to control.
A lack of flexibility in this sets up a team/player when a howler occurs.
My opinion FWIW, is the players need to be able to react in the very first instance and then expected to stop.
I could even accept a requirement that players acknowledge the reaction and raise one hand as a visual apology to umpire.

In an emotional game, punishing an initial reaction with the goal of increasing umpire respect, seems likely to compound and highlight the impact of a poor decision by an umpire.

It makes an umpire less accountable and lowers their expectations which could affect the game.
It also needs to be remembered that the shortage of umpires is affecting the game at all levels already.


On SM-A205YN using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Pessimistic]

Geelong have been sooking about decisions and collectively, intentionally trying to influence umpires for the last decade or so.

It's actually worked to a large extent.

I hate seeing players concerned with umpiring. I like Jai Newcombe's approach to footy. Goes hard. Gets his head ripped off, keeps going. Has no idea where the umpire is, just keeps at it.

Compared to other players who cop a slightly high tackle and whip their head around to where the umpire is pleading for free kicks. And then wave their arms around when they don't get one.

If this new rule weeds out that second type of player then good. I'm happy about it.
If the new rule instead weeds out players genuinely asking for clarification then I'm not happy about it.

This will be an unpopular take - but what were Gunston and Mitchell hoping to achieve? They were clearly saying to the umpire it was a bullshit call. They weren't asking for clarification so they could better engage in the next contest. They were pointing out bullshit. I would much rather they didn't.

North Melbourne too.

Maybe the Mitchell incident was needed to find the boundary of the process. On the whole the cats have lost more than they gained, the focus will be on their games now, as you say.

But could Mitchell have expected that a non participant in the original decision be penalised? Was that told explicitly to players?

I see they had serious discussion about sanctioning coach behaviour too. Which I suppose could be a problem at grass roots level

 

[Lotus]

This will be an unpopular take - but what were Gunston and Mitchell hoping to achieve? They were clearly saying to the umpire it was a bullshit call. They weren't asking for clarification so they could better engage in the next contest. They were pointing out bullshit. I would much rather they didn't.

Put the blame on us(supporters) screaming and unhappy about that diving/staging. That incident was played over and over in the big screen.

Players questioning bad decision will keep happening, especially when the tension and emotion running high. Need to start asking Adidas to put pocket in the short.

 

[OnTheRocks]

but what were Gunston and Mitchell hoping to achieve? They were clearly saying to the umpire it was a bullshit call. They weren't asking for

2 experienced players and 1 of which is a Brownlow medallist both expressing confusion or seeking clarity on a decision made that appeared to be wrong.
If the AFL want to set an example about dissent towards umps won't be tolerated and if that includes raising of arms (what next, eyebrows?) Perhaps they should get to the source of the dissent or questioning of the umps and have them make better decisions?

 

[Pessimistic]

On the whole cats were full strength and in some cases rested.

We have plenty of development and players in the wings. Day long bramble etc and plenty of depth

But I suppose the cats are well down from the AFL benchmark. Who have we beaten exactly?

Looking forward to a good account the next 2 weeks

 

[MinerBoy]

2 experienced players and 1 of which is a Brownlow medallist both expressing confusion or seeking clarity on a decision made that appeared to be wrong.
If the AFL want to set an example about dissent towards umps won't be tolerated and if that includes raising of arms (what next, eyebrows?) Perhaps they should get to the source of the dissent or questioning of the umps and have them make better decisions?

You better not sigh too loudly.

 

[kazzooka]

Think we're all guilty of that, mate!

Not me, I was taught from a very young age that you've gotta get down low and put your head over it.

 

[Sixpence]

This will be an unpopular take - but what were Gunston and Mitchell hoping to achieve? They were clearly saying to the umpire it was a bullshit call. They weren't asking for clarification so they could better engage in the next contest. They were pointing out bullshit. I would much rather they didn't.

Part of the issue is, umpires never reverse a decision even when they're blatantly wrong. I don't mind them making the wrong call in the moment, it's not an easy job and they can't see everything. If, however, they look at the replay, see it's wrong and still stick with it, then that's just puts players and fans more offside. I don't see an issue whatsoever with Mitchell and Gunston going "Hey, look at this, maybe you need to revise the call". Penalizing them 50m is the wrong solution and only makes umpires more hated. How can you possibly show them more respect when they act beyond reproach? Respect is earned, not demanded.

 

[CHUBBSS]

Geelong have been sooking about decisions and collectively, intentionally trying to influence umpires for the last decade or so.

It's actually worked to a large extent.

I hate seeing players concerned with umpiring. I like Jai Newcombe's approach to footy. Goes hard. Gets his head ripped off, keeps going. Has no idea where the umpire is, just keeps at it.

Compared to other players who cop a slightly high tackle and whip their head around to where the umpire is pleading for free kicks. And then wave their arms around when they don't get one.

If this new rule weeds out that second type of player then good. I'm happy about it.
If the new rule instead weeds out players genuinely asking for clarification then I'm not happy about it.

This will be an unpopular take - but what were Gunston and Mitchell hoping to achieve? They were clearly saying to the umpire it was a bullshit call. They weren't asking for clarification so they could better engage in the next contest. They were pointing out bullshit. I would much rather they didn't.

I disagree, senior players should have the ability to call out bullshit calls, it could have cost us the game and the umpires are at this point inept at identifying right from wrong, so the ability to communicate that Hawkins is floating in the air like a fairy should be allowed, to not have that allows for the umpires to continue with the bullshit on the day

 

[eldorado]

Gesturing with one's hands has ALWAYS been a part of normal human civil interaction.

Typical AFL goons, can't even get the most basic common-sense distinction between what is normal for humans to do and what isn't.

 

[H00t]

Part of the issue is, umpires never reverse a decision even when they're blatantly wrong. I don't mind them making the wrong call in the moment, it's not an easy job and they can't see everything. If, however, they look at the replay, see it's wrong and still stick with it, then that's just puts players and fans more offside. I don't see an issue whatsoever with Mitchell and Gunston going "Hey, look at this, maybe you need to revise the call". Penalizing them 50m is the wrong solution and only makes umpires more hated. How can you possibly show them more respect when they act beyond reproach? Respect is earned, not demanded.

The decisions made. Pretty much no ump ever looks up at the big screen, they just get on with the game. And they definitely can’t change any decision based on a tv replay.

Players also need to get on with it. Just focus on winning the ball at the next play. Sometimes the umps decision goes against us, sometimes it goes our way. It’s just the way AFL is.

The only thing the players should focus on is what they can control.

Certain players or teams might get lucky with the umps. But I can’t see what gesturing to an umpire is going to do about it. Apart from give up a 50.

 

[Yardie]

The decisions made. Pretty much no ump ever looks up at the big screen, they just get on with the game. And they definitely can’t change any decision based on a tv replay.

Players also need to get on with it. Just focus on winning the ball at the next play. Sometimes the umps decision goes against us, sometimes it goes our way. It’s just the way AFL is.

The only thing the players should focus on is what they can control.

Certain players or teams might get lucky with the umps. But I can’t see what gesturing to an umpire is going to do about it. Apart from give up a 50.

If I'm a player I wouldn't question the decision. I'd now just ask the umpire that going forward that it will be paid for all.

 

[Sixpence]

The decisions made. Pretty much no ump ever looks up at the big screen, they just get on with the game. And they definitely can’t change any decision based on a tv replay.

Players also need to get on with it. Just focus on winning the ball at the next play. Sometimes the umps decision goes against us, sometimes it goes our way. It’s just the way AFL is.

The only thing the players should focus on is what they can control.

Certain players or teams might get lucky with the umps. But I can’t see what gesturing to an umpire is going to do about it. Apart from give up a 50.

Accepting the way it is is what makes it so broken. Controlling players' hand movements is not a good direction for the game. We're not talking about a 50/50 HTB decision here.

 

[HolyRioli]

Apologies if it’s been posted already (not really, it’s funny many times over)