Autopsy Round 5, 2024: GWS v St.Kilda

[SG34]

For that to happen we would need to be gifted a comparable academy and catchment area.
AFL says "No"

It is true, their Academy is starting to bear fruit, but that is relatively recent. It started in '09 and '10 for them and it started with importing established players. Sure, they got a few high draft picks, but they left. By 2021, just 12 players from the academy had played a game in the firsts, over all the years. And look at their performance from 2010-2020 on SEN's 10 year ladder. 63% win-loss and third overall. https://www.sen.com.au/news/2019/12/12/the-afl-victories-ladder-all-the-wins-and-losses-since-2010/
(Saints 13th with 40% win-loss..and that includes two finals RTB years a the start) Their kick start was in 2009 and 2010. They bought in loads of stars and good players from other clubs. (and look what happened yesterday. If it wasn't for Hill and Steele, where would we be?)

 

[sauce_head]

Did anyone else find it bizarre that the umpires allowed the Giants player to run to a mark and then allow them to just run away and yell out "outside 15"? It happened all day and was a shocking look. That rule is so horribly officiated and makes no sense what so ever.
Plus the amount of Giants players that wasn't following a Saints player run within 5m of a Saints player that just marked the ball.

I know that didn't lose us the game but it was irritating because we would have being pinged for the behavior, This mantra of EQUALITY is a joke and I'm really starting to hate AFL. The AFL clearly have favorites and it's plain disgusting.

Wait until you notice how Port Adelaide are allowed to walk the ball out of bounds at their home game whenever they want and they never get a free kick paid for it…

 

[BigMonty]

The game is chaging/evolving. 2m Peter Joey Daniher do stints on the ruck wing. Rooey finished his career there and Richo almost won a brownlow playing on a wing.

You must have your talent using their talent for as much game time as possible. As much as for their own sanity as well.

Great to compete but you need to score. Take the movie, Hosiers where the coach says champions want the ball. King is a champion he needs to get the ball feel the ball touch the ball....be the ball.

We look too tall with Caminiti, Membrey and Sharman. Switch Sharman for Hayes and rotate Hayes and King through Ruck and HHF for 10 min a qtr giving Marshall a break. Then play Caminiti and Membrey deep.
Just a thought.
Oh Hugo Garcia starts next week for underdone Butler.

On SM-S916B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[tomjoad]

It is true, their Academy is starting to bear fruit, but that is relatively recent. It started in '09 and '10 for them and it started with importing established players. Sure, they got a few high draft picks, but they left. By 2021, just 12 players from the academy had played a game in the firsts, over all the years. And look at their performance from 2010-2020 on SEN's 10 year ladder. 63% win-loss and third overall. https://www.sen.com.au/news/2019/12/12/the-afl-victories-ladder-all-the-wins-and-losses-since-2010/
(Saints 13th with 40% win-loss..and that includes two finals RTB years a the start) Their kick start was in 2009 and 2010. They bought in loads of stars and good players from other clubs. (and look what happened yesterday. If it wasn't for Hill and Steele, where would we be?)

How would you go about attracting stars...as we have had no joy in that area? We've done okay with Hill (now...and for an exorbitant price), Crouch, Higgo, Butler, Membrey, and Steele, as all have been solid to very good players.
Stocker and Henry also looking likely.
Stars though...probably not.
I think we just have to stick with the draft and hope that we develop better than what we have in the past. We aren't a destination club (though we've improved in that area) and we can't offer what a two club city can, or the perks afforded to them by outside interests and the AFL.
Sydney is too big to fail
We are not.

 

[CursingFijian]

He is still underdeveloped physically but give him another 1 or 2 pre seasons and this kid will be a serious AFL footballer

 

[SG34]

How would you go about attracting stars...as we have had no joy in that area? We've done okay with Hill (now...and for an exorbitant price), Crouch, Higgo, Butler, Membrey, and Steele, as all have been solid to very good players.
Stocker and Henry also looking likely.
Stars though...probably not.
I think we just have to stick with the draft and hope that we develop better than what we have in the past. We aren't a destination club (though we've improved in that area) and we can't offer what a two club city can, or the perks afforded to them by outside interests and the AFL.
Sydney is too big to fail
We are not.

I agree with that sentiment, Sydney is too big (and crucial to the franchise) to fail. We are expendable, or at the very least, able to be whipped up like cream for the cake, the others will eat. However, my point is that the draft and bottoming out is a dreadful scenario. I believe it is wishful thinking and fools gold. I think North Melbourne and to some extent Hawthorn are prime examples of how we should not go. North have to play ten different remote locations in this year’s fixture. When ever I hear ‘play the kids’ I wince. I know it is the ‘right thing’ and I know it is wholesome. And I know saying that we should buy a bunch of bit players from other clubs might not be ideal - I do remember the ‘80s, when our club was like the Carlton and Hawthorn reserves, but just want avoid any talk of bottoming out and losing games so that ‘kids’ get experience. But…sigh…we are not a destination club, or should I say, we’re not. I think Ross has some cache value still, and that more established players respect him. (No slant on Richo or Ratts, but they were too nice) edit : and I may add, I think Butler and Members might be coming to the end. Crouch and Hill? 3 years tops.

 

[SteeleSaints]

I’m sure there is a PT on this board that can weigh in. I can only assume they are expecting that development to come as he is more mature.

Just frustrating watching a ball come in and he can’t protect his position or create space in a strength.

That’s my knock on him.

Outside of that, we don’t win * all without max king now or in the future.

I have been of the opinion for sometime that a lot of our players didn't look strong enough compared to their opponents. Obviously we have fitness staff come and go from other clubs, so you would hope the club are base level in this regard. But for players that dynamic movement and physical battles with opposition is their game, I would like to see all of our squad more prepared physically.

King is the player being discussed, but Howard is another senior player who is not powerful enough in one on one contests. I probably shouldn't even mention Clark, because he still has the body development of a 16yo boy and the club have done nothing to change it.

Surely these players look at the top players from other clubs and see the difference?

 

[Saints4ever]

That’s insane for someone who was subbed on in the 3rd qtr and played about 33% game time.
We’ve got a player here.

 

[Miha]

That’s insane for someone who was subbed on in the 3rd qtr and played about 33% game time.
We’ve got a player here.

Would be criminal if he isn’t in for the dogs

 

[moirae42]

I have been of the opinion for sometime that a lot of our players didn't look strong enough compared to their opponents. Obviously we have fitness staff come and go from other clubs, so you would hope the club are base level in this regard. But for players that dynamic movement and physical battles with opposition is their game, I would like to see all of our squad more prepared physically.

King is the player being discussed, but Howard is another senior player who is not powerful enough in one on one contests. I probably shouldn't even mention Clark, because he still has the body development of a 16yo boy and the club have done nothing to change it.

Surely these players look at the top players from other clubs and see the difference?

If you get the chance... have a look at the physical size of almost the entire Adelaide team.
We dont have a single bloke on our list that looks as roided up as they do.

But... I reckon we are 15-20% fitter than they are.

 

[sauce_head]

I have been of the opinion for sometime that a lot of our players didn't look strong enough compared to their opponents. Obviously we have fitness staff come and go from other clubs, so you would hope the club are base level in this regard. But for players that dynamic movement and physical battles with opposition is their game, I would like to see all of our squad more prepared physically.

King is the player being discussed, but Howard is another senior player who is not powerful enough in one on one contests. I probably shouldn't even mention Clark, because he still has the body development of a 16yo boy and the club have done nothing to change it.

Surely these players look at the top players from other clubs and see the difference?

King’s injuries have restricted his body development. Anybody who doubts this just needs to compare the size of his arms on the non-injured and injured shoulder sides. It’s a remarkable difference.

 

[Teflon]

Does Garcia take Butlers defensive forward role? Or come straight in as a mid? He has to play Butler doesn’t do enough/out of form

 

[moirae42]

We definitely appear to have a different weight setup to a lot of other clubs.

 

[moirae42]

Does Garcia take Butlers defensive forward role? Or come straight in as a mid? He has to play Butler doesn’t do enough/out of form

Mid.

Let him run with the bulls. Jack needs help.

 

[Saints4ever]

Garcia has to play as a mid just completely passes the eye test. The way he positions himself at the contest is elite. Can’t teach that kind of instinct.

 

[akaifu]

Does Garcia take Butlers defensive forward role? Or come straight in as a mid? He has to play Butler doesn’t do enough/out of form

Do not waste him out of position. If he looked comfortable in his natural role, play him there to start. Push Wilson more forward and Seb can play some more wing like he did in the 4th quarter. Windy also played wing at some points

 

[stfan]

Exactly.
Marshalls individual stats are only ever half the story.

Often he has massive individual clearance stats- but we lose clearances as a team (particularly effective clearances) badly.

His 'grab the ball and hack it forward' clearances come at an opportunity cost to us.
We lose the opportunity for any of those ruck contests to have far more chance of being effective (via a ruck tap to a mid).

Marvelling at marshalls individual clearance and contested possession numbers in isolation is only looking at half of the equation.

Thing is when Marshall plays like that St Kilda go well. ie


The end of the game against GWS when Marshall went on a rampage.


The last quarter against the Cats....


When Marshall is up and about. St Kilda are too. It is not a coincidence.

 

[stfan]

Does Garcia take Butlers defensive forward role? Or come straight in as a mid? He has to play Butler doesn’t do enough/out of form

No. More like Gresham's role when he rotated through the midfield and forward. Though with Garcia it may be more time as a mid.

Without Crouch we are really down a mid rotation anyway.

Wilson and Byrnes can also run and pressure forward to wing to back. Hill not so much as they will want to keep maximising his offensive game.


With Garcia added to the mid rotations it increases our depth there.

 

[austinnn]

How many years has Membrey got left? I tend to think Sharman is his understudy and will eventually replace him. He doesn't have those long orangutan arms that Tim possesses but is a decent mark and probably as accurate a goalkicker as Tim, something one of our other forwards could claim, more's the pity.

Can Max, Titanic, and Hammer play in the sane forward line? I hope so.

 

[austinnn]

The problem with Saints this year is the same problem we have had since 2011. The midfield.

When you put our best three mids - Steele, Crouch and Sinclair(?) up against GWS or Dees or Carlton or Swans or Brisbane or Port - it is just not a fair contest.

You can paper over that with committed defensive set up - something RTB has been good at all his coaching career but it will only get you so far. They have moved to strengthen the mids recently but still not seeing a Butters or Green or Petracca on the horizon.

I was one of many who advocated drafting Max King.I wonder what it would look like had we taken Rozee - there was a small group advocating for that.

Regardless, this year has to be a development year. Hit the draft again and try and use our war chest to get an A grade mid or two.

That's probably the biggest problem. But not the only one.

Marshall is our MVP due to the position he plays and lack of competition - but he kicks like a goddam mule and doesn't have much footy IQ.

Our key forward thst we've built the side around and our top crumber, both leading goalkickers for the club at various stages in recent years - are confidence players and unreliable in front of goal.

We have a load of CHBs and no FB.

We have a bunch of kids and all our "stars" are close to or over 30.

Probably more too

 

[Saintbloke]

One thing is for sure- King, Membrey, Caminiti and Sharman can't all play together in the forward line..slow as a wet week.

 

[Desperate saint]

If he does it 20 times a game then we set up for it. It’s still a win. You play to your own strengths, and Marshall is.

not bad clearences if our forwards are at the shoulder or in front of their men-the last one a classic a clearence where our forwards were behind thier opponents and GWS took the mark 101 really

 

[The Punter]

Look, you can rave about GWS till the cows come home, but we lost the game because we gifted them a couple of goals. We're probably fitter than all the other clubs so we can run over teams once we really have to attack.

 

[stavro#4]

How would you go about attracting stars...as we have had no joy in that area? We've done okay with Hill (now...and for an exorbitant price), Crouch, Higgo, Butler, Membrey, and Steele, as all have been solid to very good players.
Stocker and Henry also looking likely.
Stars though...probably not.
I think we just have to stick with the draft and hope that we develop better than what we have in the past. We aren't a destination club (though we've improved in that area) and we can't offer what a two club city can, or the perks afforded to them by outside interests and the AFL.
Sydney is too big to fail
We are not.

You just have to flash the cash.

Which is what it sounds like is going to happen.

Put massive $$$ infront of LDU Mcluggage etc and if their clubs match. Reduces what they can do themselves.

Our club seems to believe they will shake players loose one way or the other.

 

[sauce_head]

not bad clearences if our forwards are at the shoulder or in front of their men-the last one a classic a clearence where our forwards were behind thier opponents and GWS took the mark 101 really

Totally agree. Playing in front is seldom the wrong option.