Autopsy Round 6, 2024: St Kilda v Western Bulldogs

[ScrappyDo]

would leave Higgins in the forward half all the time and someone in our defensive goal square- everyone one else can do the keepings off thing

I think the door is open for Collard now. I'm hoping RTB frees the players up a bit as the system is self defeating without the cattle to pull it off. There's too much left to too few atm.

 

[gringo2011]

I think the door is open for Collard now. I'm hoping RTB frees the players up a bit as the system is self defeating without the cattle to pull it off. There's too much left to too few atm.

We seem to be trying to do tempo footy where we hold then surge but our holding is leaking so badly that we get put away before having to work twice as hard to drag our way back into it.

We should just tell them to go out and get off the chain for once.

 

[Browny2Carlisle]

Why do these unsubstantiated claims start coming out for no reason? Suddenly Owens isn’t quick and can’t find the ball.
He’s explosive and gets the contested ball constantly. Hard to find the pill a lot playing as an undersized tall forward.
He’s a Cripps/fyfe type. Let him have a run in the middle before we start throwing myths around.

 

[g_TRAIN]

Why do these unsubstantiated claims start coming out for no reason? Suddenly Owens isn’t quick and can’t find the ball.
He’s explosive and gets the contested ball constantly. Hard to find the pill a lot playing as an undersized tall forward.
He’s a Cripps/fyfe type. Let him have a run in the middle before we start throwing myths around.

Agreed, he's not a speedster but he's quick for his size.

He can find the ball too, or though his weakness is probably in collecting easy possesions which you need to be able to do as well as the contested stuff.

I do think they're not playing him as a mid in part because he wants to be a forward.

 

[luca77]

Agreed, he's not a speedster but he's quick for his size.

He can find the ball too, or though his weakness is probably in collecting easy possesions which you need to be able to do as well as the contested stuff.

I do think they're not playing him as a mid in part because he wants to be a forward.

I would hope we're not playing a kid as a forward who has a horrible set shot kicking action and gets according results, simply because he wants to be a forward!

If the blokes alongside him were reliable shots, it would be ok. But Higgins/King/Owens together? My god.

It was a bit like when we had Geary, Dunstan and Ross in the team. One, maybe two of them was somewhat sustainable. But the three together! It was butcher's convention.

 

[g_TRAIN]

I would hope we're not playing a kid as a forward who has a horrible set shot kicking action and gets according results, simply because he wants to be a forward!

If the blokes alongside him were reliable shots, it would be ok. But Higgins/King/Owens together? My god.

It was a bit like when we had Geary, Dunstan and Ross in the team. One, maybe two of them was somewhat sustainable. But the three together! It was butcher's convention.

Probably because he has a unique ability to win contested 1v1s and contested non stoppage possesion.

Daniel Hoyne said last year some of his numbers in that respect were better than prime Lance Franklin etc.

He needs to work on his kicking but he has something they like forward of centre.

 

[Teflon]

Midfield is really poor but at least we have players that will come back, and we are developing some kids there. Windy is starting to show something. Garcia looks promising. Haven't seen Dow yet. I liked Henry as an option through there. Crouch obviously a big loss.

The forward line is the bigger concern for me because I'm not sure how we improve it.

Even with players back that midfield ain’t top 4 bound
Needs an injection of ball winning, burst from stoppage pace which we’ve not had for decades

 

[beside the seaside]

Even with players back that midfield ain’t top 4 bound
Needs an injection of ball winning, burst from stoppage pace which we’ve not had for decades

Ultimately that's what everyone is chasing.

 

[Saintbloke]

Why do these unsubstantiated claims start coming out for no reason? Suddenly Owens isn’t quick and can’t find the ball.
He’s explosive and gets the contested ball constantly. Hard to find the pill a lot playing as an undersized tall forward.
He’s a Cripps/fyfe type. Let him have a run in the middle before we start throwing myths around.

Don't put him in the Cripps/ Fyfe category- they are elite talent. The best thing for players like Owens, Sharman is for Lyon to put them in one position and leave them there so they can develop a style of play. Owens and Sharman are both forwards, not midfielders or wingman

 

[Teflon]

Sharman needs space to operate in the F50, which with our current set up he rarely has. Thats not his fault most talls would be the same, but I cant see him improving in the current team. He is being flicked around because his form in the F50 has been non existent, thats a coach trying to get a player into the game.

Maybe.
I think it’s a cia h plugging holes personally
He can’t ask Caminiti or Membrey to run all over the park with no Wood
Sharman it is…

 

[Teflon]

Agree but not sure of Harves role. Think he’s great to have on board but maybe as a mentor more than forward coach.

I love Harvs but question this too
I’m not he’s a forwards coach and I don’t know what Goddard has done to be mid coach
Being ruthless for pursuit of the best is more than just words…get the best
I’m also a fan of other views ….not sure how much those 2 challenge a Ross on match selection/game plan …
Enright has credentials from a reputable organisation….

 

[Teflon]

So it’s about how we answer the questions

I feel it might be close…Port in Lort on rebound with our terrible record….good luck

 

[g_TRAIN]

I love Harvs but question this too
I’m not he’s a forwards coach and I don’t know what Goddard has done to be mid coach
Being ruthless for pursuit of the best is more than just words…get the best
I’m also a fan of other views ….not sure how much those 2 challenge a Ross on match selection/game plan …
Enright has credentials from a reputable organisation….

Do we really think forward, back, midfield coaches etc are really fully responsible for the preformance of each line?

I think its more about delegating the work between coaches. The actual system we play would be something that Ross has the ultimate say on but it would have been developed with input from all the assistant coaches.

I guess what I'm saying is if we replaced Harvey as the forward coach it might make zero difference at all.

 

[pebblesofsand]

j

just have to google type 1 diabetes and elite sports -its all there -just a criminal waste

I did - AFL players with type 1 diabetes

Jamie Cripps - 234 games

Sam Reid - 181 games

Nathan Bassett - 210 games

Dale Weightman - 274 games

 

[Browny2Carlisle]

Don't put him in the Cripps/ Fyfe category- they are elite talent. The best thing for players like Owens, Sharman is for Lyon to put them in one position and leave them there so they can develop a style of play. Owens and Sharman are both forwards, not midfielders or wingman

I’m not saying he’s their quality I’m saying that’s the type of player he is. Strong, can stand up in a tackle and get the ball out to a runner, but can also go forward and take a big mark.
Owens is not a forward. He’s been used there because of our missing players last year but we’ve left him there for some abnormal reason.

 

[g_TRAIN]

I’m not saying he’s their quality I’m saying that’s the type of player he is. Strong, can stand up in a tackle and get the ball out to a runner, but can also go forward and take a big mark.
Owens is not a forward. He’s been used there because of our missing players last year but we’ve left him there for some abnormal reason.

We can all disagree but the coaches beleive his position is as a forward.

As Robert Harvey said he gets lost in the traffic when he's around the ball, so I guess thats one reason he doesn't get big minutes there.

Personally while his set shots are terrible I actually think he's a good forward with his body work and craft. And he said himeslf he wants to be a forward not a mid.

 

[bergholt]

No I think its moved onto a discussion about outright pick purchasing.

The idea being discussed now is that a clubs could directly buy draft picks from a club (most likely one in contention and with salary cap issues) and the money they get for selling the pick is then added to their salary cap so they can continue to keep their good players while they are in their "window".

Ah right I’d missed that bit. Wonder how that will play out in practice? If they’re in contention then they probably won’t have a good first, so they’ll have to trade for one. Or more likely they’ll just give up a few second rounders - not sure how attractive that would be to us.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Ah right I’d missed that bit. Wonder how that will play out in practice? If they’re in contention then they probably won’t have a good first, so they’ll have to trade for one. Or more likely they’ll just give up a few second rounders - not sure how attractive that would be to us.

Aside from those in actual contention, clubs like Gold Coast and North would be a suitable target.

Both Gold Coast and North will have a shedload of talent who will all want money around the same time.

North may prefer to give a a first rounder so they can then pay for LDU, Sheezel, Wardle ete etc etc.

 

[MOLTEN GANGLANDS]

100% same as Kozie

Still we should have taken Trac.

biggest draft blunder since tambling over buddy, closely followed by billings over bont (but that's more in hindsight I guess). Leading into the draft trac was tracking like a unicorn, his stats were crazy, absolutely dominant, then elshaugh wanted to be the main character. Massive fumble

 

[Teflon]

Amazing that people ( supporters ) always think its the superstars of the game they should have coaching, while its the McQualters, Lyons, Clarkson, Scott's who are best at it.

Maybe the ultra talented people don't have to think about the game too much while playing it, while the more mundane types have to constantly think about anything that could give them an advantage.

James Hird went to coach Essendon remember.

I agree

 

[Teflon]

As my post pointed out.

We can’t cut. We need to trade players out for currency unless we are pick buying. We don’t have enough picks to cut and trade.

But the only absolutely terrible deal I’ve heard whispers of being on the market is Lobb and they won’t be upgrading a pick for us.
It would be something like the Melbourne third rounder for Lobb and a dogs 4th

That’s disaster land imo he’s no good

 

[gringo2011]

Worth a punt at the right price.

Also missed all of 2022 with glandular fever, looked like he was tracking well the year before and last year the kids coming through were so good he was pushed down the order. I reckon he could be a good gamble. Apparently keen too look around for opportunity too.

 

[Cairnsman]

There is other issues in his game as well.

Watching him on Thursday night and his footy smarts when it came to defending Bulldogs rebounds was non-existent. He was just running around in circles and had no idea where to go. Can put it down to two things. Either he can't do it or can't be f***ed.

Now this also comes down to leadership in the forward line, which is non-existent. Players like Butler, Owens aren't too much better at the moment. Strangely, Higgins has improved out of sight in this area. But Sharman and Butler aren't offering anything attacking wise either. Higgins is and Owens has been okay in this area.

All this translates to the ball coming out of the forward line too easily and our mids, defence under pressure.

Also, Sharman is hardly ever going to get space in the forward 50. But you look at similar sized forwards such Bailey Fritsch and Kyle Langford (who we dream Sharman becomes like), and they are constantly leading and presenting to the ball regardless of space available. I can't recall Sharman taking a mark on the lead inside 50 this season. It's probably happened but I can't recall it. All he wants to do is to jump into packs from the side and mark....or try to take a hanger.

With Sharman it's one of two cases, either he just doesn't have what it takes or he isn't working hard enough.

I hope it's the second case but I feel the first is more likely at this stage.

You have nailed him precisely.

A few things you've observed incredibly accurately. Firstly this space in the forward line that is supposed to open up for Sharman to work into, it usually is guarded with more desperation than any other space on a modern AFL field. The forwards that can find this magical space are equipped with incredible agility, Sharman is a straight line runner.

Lack of agility and zero abiltity below the knees and at ground level also causes his other significant weakness and that is his forward defensiveness, and as you say, this leads to the ball coming out of the forward line all too easily when it's in his zone.

This is also why he's been used anywhere but the Forward line and that is to try and exploit his running in straight lines and being able to leap for the a ball behind the pack, he's ok behind the ball, not in front of it.

It's a myth he's a natural forward at AFL level, yes he's a good mark and kick which would look OK below AFL level but he's struggled terribly at AFL level in the forward line. I tend to aggre that I don't think he's going to make grade, and as harsh as it sounds he's been gifted a lot of games due to our never ending injury crisis.

 

[gringo2011]

There is other issues in his game as well.

Watching him on Thursday night and his footy smarts when it came to defending Bulldogs rebounds was non-existent. He was just running around in circles and had no idea where to go. Can put it down to two things. Either he can't do it or can't be f***ed.

Now this also comes down to leadership in the forward line, which is non-existent. Players like Butler, Owens aren't too much better at the moment. Strangely, Higgins has improved out of sight in this area. But Sharman and Butler aren't offering anything attacking wise either. Higgins is and Owens has been okay in this area.

All this translates to the ball coming out of the forward line too easily and our mids, defence under pressure.

Also, Sharman is hardly ever going to get space in the forward 50. But you look at similar sized forwards such Bailey Fritsch and Kyle Langford (who we dream Sharman becomes like), and they are constantly leading and presenting to the ball regardless of space available. I can't recall Sharman taking a mark on the lead inside 50 this season. It's probably happened but I can't recall it. All he wants to do is to jump into packs from the side and mark....or try to take a hanger.

With Sharman it's one of two cases, either he just doesn't have what it takes or he isn't working hard enough.

I hope it's the second case but I feel the first is more likely at this stage.

He seemed playing the running wing role not as a KP.

 

[MickG88]

I have heard Harvey may retire end of year
Thinking Nick R might be a nice addition..?

No thanks, would rather try and lure Franklin. Franklin wants to coach and is the best forward of the last 20 years.