Ruckman effectiveness stats - McEvoy very poor!

[Winners Only]

This article off the Player Rater site is very good and puts in to perpective how poor McEvoy with his tap work.

http://www.playerrater.com.au/news/stat ... e-hit-outs

When analysing the effectiveness of a ruckman, it’s often the ‘hitouts’ column that draws the most attention. But just like with kicking and handballing, some players are more effective than others.

The table below focuses on statistical areas relating to the tap-work of ruckmen. Including: Hit-outs (HO), Hit-outs To Advantage (HTA) and Effective Hit-outs (%EffHO)
The difference between 'Hit-outs To Advantage' and 'Effective Hit-outs'- Hit-outs To Advantage: refer to when a player taps the ball directly to a teammate from a stoppage.- Effective Hit-outs: refer to hit-outs that result in retaining team possession - and ultimately first disposal.
Notes:
•The table is sorted by percentage of Hit-outs to Advantage (%HTA).•The rank on the left refers to Hit-outs per game (HO).•When it comes to delivering effective hit-outs, it’s the heavy built ruckmen (typically stand and tap ruckmen) like Mark Jamar, Darren Jolly and Shane Mumford that deliver the best results.•For the most part, ‘Hit-outs To Advantage’ and ‘Effective Hit-outs’ go hand in hand, but there are exceptions. Robbie Warnock is an example of a ruckman that gets flattered by the effectiveness of his midfielders. The numbers indicate that Warnock is good at tapping to a general area and gaining ground for his team, but not necessarily skilled at tapping directly to the advantage of a teammate.•By these measures, Sam Jacobs is perhaps the most misleading ruckmen in the league. Jacobs is ranked 5th in the AFL for hit-outs per game, but ranks toward the bottom in hit-outs to advantage and effective hit-outs.


Hit-out statistics (per game) 2011:

Rank Player GP HO HTA %HTA %EffHO
(HO)
6 M Jamar (MELB) 14 29.2 12.1 41.4 50.9
11 D Jolly (COLL) 12 24.8 9.8 39.5 54.0
3 S Mumford (SYD) 16 32.8 12.8 39.0 50.1
23 T Bellchambers 13 20.5 7.7 37.6 46.6
8 D Cox (WCE) 21 28.0 10.5 37.5 44.8
2 A Sandilands (FR 12 34.3 11.7 34.1 48.1
25 N Naitanui (WCE)19 18.1 6.1 33.7 44.5
18 B Hudson (WB) 16 22.5 7.4 32.9 48.3
28 Z Smith (GCS) 19 17.0 5.5 32.4 48.9
4 M Leuenberger (B)21 32.0 10.3 32.2 45.5
1 T Goldstein (NM) 20 36.2 11.3 31.2 48.5
7 R Warnock (C) 17 28.1 8.5 30.3 50.2
9 B Ottens (GEEL) 16 25.2 7.6 30.2 45.7
5 S Jacobs (ADEL) 18 31.9 9.6 30.1 44.8
19 M Bailey (HAW) 13 21.0 6.2 29.5 47.6
17 B McEvoy (STK) 20 22.6 6.6 29.2 44.2
22 D Brogan (PORT) 11 20.5 5.8 28.3 43.8
15 C Wood (COLL) 11 23.5 6.2 26.4 47.9
13 A Graham (RICH) 13 23.8 6.0 25.2 48.5

NOTE: That McEvoy has the 2nd lowest hit out effectiveness with only Brogan doing worse. If they also included hitouts per game time I think you would find McEvoy would slip further down the rankings. He rucked for long periods last year where as other lower rated ruckman had much less game time. I believe he would be the worst ranked ruckman in the competition.

Take the blinkers off people this clearly shows he is one of the worst ruckman in the competition!

 

[saintsrfreak]

Mark Blake would be elite according to your logic.

 

[Squizz]

Whilst Macca is nowhere near the best tap ruckman in the competition, he continues to improve and carried the ruck division without alot of support (well _uck all really) in 2011. Got a big tank and gets to contests.

I look at guys like Bellchambers and Jacobs who used to give him a pasting in the VFL.

Whilst he'd inevitably lose the tap he always seemed to be more effective around the ground.

Based on 2011 AFL stats he had nearly 15 possessions a game, 5 marks, and 4 tackles. Barely gave away any frees (0.4).

Jacobs 13 possessions, 4 marks, 3 takles and 1.0 frees conceded.

Bellchambers - 11p, 3m, 1t, 1.5 frees.

I think Warnock is another example (still seems to be developing) - 11p, 2m, 3t, 0.8 frees.

Mumford is a bit older and is a real good ruckman imo. 12.5p, 3m, 5t, 2.2 frees.

Just think it all goes in the melting pot along with the player's age and development potential. And he's ours!

 

[hayes]

Yeah it's one thing that's always been a problem with him. He's great around the ground but still has a long way to go to at least be competitive in a ruck contest.

I don't think it was a coincidence that we were at the bottom of the league in clearances last year and Macca being the number one ruckman. It wasn't all Lenny being out.

 

[Simple Jack]

Last year I thought big Bens tap work was the reason our stoppage stats were so poor, not so much Lenny not being there (although that undoubtedly played a part).

Bens around the ground work is probably top 5-6 in the comp for ruckman, but I barely remember him winning a tap and directing it to one of our guys last year.

If he can improve that this year he will take a massive step.

 

[hayes]

Last year I thought big Bens tap work was the reason our stoppage stats were so poor, not so much Lenny not being there (although that undoubtably played a part).

Bens around the ground work is probably top 5-6 in the comp for ruckman, but I barely remember him winning a tap and directing it to one of our guys last year.

If he can improve that this year he will take a massive step.

Great minds think alike.

 

[mysainters]

He'll be right.

He has a lot to learn, but I will back him in to improve.

Chucked in the deep end was our Ben.

 

[SamFisher25]

no blinkers here.

still judging him on the rush of blood in rd.1 last season against the eventual premiers when he reduced the margin to less than a goal late in the game.

as stated, he is good around the ground probably just needs to develop his explosivity, although the new ruck rules will assist his technique greatly one feels.

 

[Winners Only]

I dont hate the guy he battles on manfully. What bothers me is the SAINTS seem to have put all their eggs in his basket and I dont know how much improvemenmt he has in him.

One of the more important things you need to be a good ruckman is to be able to jump higher than your opponent - Ben will never be able to acheive this hence I think his rucking improvement will be very limited !

IMO the SAINTS recruiters have made major error in not actively looking for another true ruckman. We dont have another player capable of developing into or carrying the No 1 ruck position.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Sorry to jump int your thread, but would be interesting to see the effective hitouts percentage against.

That would show you something as well, as if you are neutralising the other opponents effective hitouts while doing ok yourself you're on the right track.

Nic Nat is a prime example of this, his percentage isn't overly high according to this chart, but very few ruckmen are getting effective hitouts against him.

 

[saintsrfreak]

I dont hate the guy he battles on manfully. What bothers me is the SAINTS seem to have put all their eggs in his basket and I dont know how much improvemenmt he has in him.

One of the more important things you need to be a good ruckman is to be able to jump higher than your opponent - Ben will never be able to acheive this hence I think his rucking improvement will be very limited !

IMO the SAINTS recruiters have made major error in not actively looking for another true ruckman. We dont have another player capable of developing into or carrying the No 1 ruck position.

Yeah, he can only go south at 22

 

[hayes]

Yeah, he can only go south at 22

I think he has a point though. In the games he's played he's barely shown any improvement in a ruck contest, if any at all. Guess the only way he can go is up but we haven't seen anything to suggest he will yet.

 

[SamFisher25]

Sorry to jump int your thread, but would be interesting to see the effective hitouts percentage against.

That would show you something as well, as if you are neutralising the other opponents effective hitouts while doing ok yourself you're on the right track.

Nic Nat is a prime example of this, his percentage isn't overly high according to this chart, but very few ruckmen are getting effective hitouts against him.

fair comment, but fattening stats will only contribute to over-valuing ruckmen away from what their real worth is.

i maintain that the obvious overall benefit one gets from a sandilands is lessened when you consider who he rucks to ie. a shit midfield.

it would be no good having a cox and a natanui if dane swan ends up with the ball at every available opportunity simply because everyone blocks for swan and the same can be said for judd. if everyone blocks for judd it becomes easier for a kruezer to put the ball in judd's lap.

and that is where the game is going if you look at hawthorn, carlton, essendon etc. towards blocking midfields who's primary focus is in equal part possession/ positional possession defence to gain possession and away from a pure tapping ruckman.

 

[SamFisher25]

I think he has a point though. In the games he's played he's barely shown any improvement in a ruck contest, if any at all. Guess the only way he can go is up but we haven't seen anything to suggest he will yet.

the new rules even though they are still preliminary will help him though. if he can charge in without having to worry about scragging it will aid his leap.

 

[saintsrfreak]

I think he has a point though. In the games he's played he's barely shown any improvement in a ruck contest, if any at all. Guess the only way he can go is up but we haven't seen anything to suggest he will yet.

I think his average of 24.2 hitouts from round 10 onwards compared to his average of 16.75 up to that point is an improvement, no?

 

[mysainters]

I have to chuckle.

Last year I made a comment on SS, as to my curiousity as to what Ben actually says to the guys in the middle before the bounce. Given he doesn't yet seem to have the ability to implement a set play...

So what on earth does Owl talk about to the mids?

There was some ripper answers.

 

[hayes]

I think his average of 24.2 hitouts from round 10 onwards compared to his average of 16.75 up to that point is an improvement, no?

Not really because they weren't going anywhere useful. Hitouts is a useless stat, most people know that. Doesn't matter how many times you touch the ball in the air if it isn't going to your team.

 

[Winners Only]

Not really because they weren't going anywhere useful. Hitouts is a useless stat, most people know that. Doesn't matter how many times you touch the ball in the air if it isn't going to your team.

I think what the WCE guy posted makes a lot of sense - as when Ben is beaten he is beaten badly which allows the opposition easy clearance and put untold pressure on our defense.

 

[saintsrfreak]

I think what the WCE guy posted makes a lot of sense - as when Ben is beaten he is beaten badly which allows the opposition easy clearance and put untold pressure on our defense.

I can only think of three instances of that happening last year:
1. Against Jacobs.
2. Against Mumford.
3. Against Cox/Naitanui.

 

[A balanced view]

I agree that the area that Ben has to improve in, is his ruck work but to make a general statement, "he is one of the worst ruckmen in the league" is bordering on moronic.
If we all didn't see some improvement in Ben in season 2011 then I wasn't watching the saints. Also when you make a statement like that, you are implying he can't improve!!! Correct me if I am wrong but Ben hasn't played fifty games and big men take time!!!
No, he hasn't a great leap but factor in he will get stronger and he is a smart player. Did anyone rate Trent West before this year?
Trent West was drafted in 2005.
To "Winners Only" you maybe just bored and wanting a debate but I hope you don't really think Ben is poor but if that is your true feelings, rest easy, as Ben has trade value.

 

[AFLOnline]

I think with Hayes back this year (a natural ball winner) Bens HO to Adv will greatly rise. Let's face it, it was pretty much only Dal Santo in there last year winning the clearances.

That being said, it's no secret his tap work needs improvement. It's really his only flaw. He makes up for this though with his work around the ground getting to contests and plucking some big grabs.

 

[hayes]

I think what will also help is Armo playing in the midfield more rather than a HFF. I don't know why he was ever put there in the first place but that will definitely help us in the clearances.

 

[mysainters]

Am I allowed to say he could kick more goals too?

That's not a knock on him, just another area he could improve. If he could aspire to Gardi's 2009 form, that would be great.

 

[Present Not Past]

Ben wasn't even picked for the first 2010 GF. He was third ruckman behind Gardiner and Kosi/Blake.

In 2011 he was still a good second ruckman but with a team playing without a primary ruck.

I can't see how things have changed for 2012 except that Ben has improved with experience and maturity but I'm not sure he's a number one ruckman yet.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I think most people realise he's not yet the greatest tap ruckman, but that will improve over the years.
It makes bugger all difference if he gets 24% or 23 or 25% taps to advantage, ( like worrying about whether petrol is 1.39 or 1.35 /litre. ) its the one that are up around 29% that are comfortably better.
The good thing about Ben is he doesn't just spud out when he's not contesting ruck.