Current Trial Russell Hill & Carol Clay - Wonnangatta *Pilot Greg Lynn Pleads Not Guilty to Murder

[Kurve]

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On the Greg Lynn committal proceedings Crown Prosecutor Mr Dickie said 'It is clear hopefully from the document, and if it's not clear from the document it's clear hopefully from the charges put before the court, that it is alleged of course that the accused acted with murderous intent when he allegedly killed the two victims.'

 

[nut]

Surely RH didn’t lift up the rope and say “here GL, come on through” mid wrestle?

My point is the guy rope and it’s significants isn’t going to prove Lynn’s story is false…. And convict him of murder.

Personally I dont believe Lynn’s story… and that Hill went and got his gun…. But I can’t prove that.

He should easily be found guilty of 2 x Manslaughter, IMO, because ultimately it was his gun that caused both deaths, directly and indirectly …
If his guns were secure and locked away, which they should have been by law, Hill and Clay would still be alive, regardless of any story made up or not made up.

The actions after the deaths should also lead to a lengthy prison term.

Maximum sentence for manslaughter with an extra sentence for his actions after the deaths.
Just my opinion.

 

[FrankGrimes]

How did the Hotham cameras not get the rego?

You need a specific camera to get Regos, due to headlights etc reflection back..

 

[Pamcake1]

How did the Hotham cameras not get the rego?

they did it is blanked out in the published photos. In the photos produced as evidence in the court they clearly showed the plates.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

The Dawson similarities are there it seems to me many people dont know about the Dawson case

Also Bradley Murdoch - Peter Falconio.

 

[InagoRaida]

DP definitely mentioned the guy rope to GL on the stand. He said it didn’t pose a problem and RH might haved lifted it. Mmm…

Yes, Prs spent a good few minutes trying to catch out Lynn on the very point ladt Thursday. Lynn ultimately suggested Hill had the gun under the rope, lifting the rope a bit higher...i don't feel anyone believed that explanation...

 

[Spectrix]

It’s not a balance of probabilities, that’s civil law. But I get what you’re saying.

Just a snap shot of the relevant points of law what needs to be proven to convict on a murder/manslaughter charge.

Murder and Manslaughter Offences | Galbally & O’Bryan Lawyers, Melbourne

In Victoria, there are different offences that relate to the unlawful killing of another person. These include murder and manslaughter. If you or someone you know has been charged with one of these offences, it is imperative to seek legal advice. Contact our Galbally & O'Bryan's team of expert...

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Thank you Sir_Loin.
Looking at those points, if RH died first as a result of the two men arguing (for instance) and then CC was cleaned up as a witness, Voluntary Manslaughter for CC would be fitting.

I'm not sure if the jury can really invent that narrative though can they?

 

[InagoRaida]

Just random thoughts

The jury knows 2 people died (or at least partial remains found)

We know that one, Clay, was hit a close range by a shotgun slug. We don't know how Hill died, except for Lynn's ROI.

Assume for one moment that the ROI is vaguely true, this was the result of an altercation and he died of a knife wound.

The jury may believe this was suicide (doubtful). accident (slim possibility), outright murder or as a result of Lynn's actions in self defence.


I'd suggest the jury may tend towards the latter, for without significant proof for or against, and swing towards the conclusion of guilty of manslaughter for that charge rather than murder

If the jury accepts that Clay's death was the result of Hill's death and Lynn's self admitted desire to maintain his lifestyle, I'd suggest that they may swing towards a conviction of murder for Clay as, again, Lynn admitted if they disappeared his problems would all be resolved. This desire is manifested into the extreme measures taken to destroy their bodies and the crime scenes.

Historically, the "average" person convicted of murder in Victoria served about 16 years before release. With truth in sentencing suggests a Non-Parole period of about 16 years or so and a head sentence of about 21 years for the murder charge

If Lynn is convicted of Manslaughter of Hill's death, the Judge may choose to make this sentence wholly concurrent, partially concurrent or wholly cumulative.

Now watch a Jury and Judge make a complete utter balls up of my prognostications

Eloquently and concisely well reasoned GreyRanga, as always!

 

[Zidane98]

Nor do they know why. They can only guess at a reason, from what GL said, but that's relying on him to tell the truth.

Trye but they relied on GL's version of events to determine that CC died from a shot to the head.

Prosecution should have done a similar thing witu death by knife but argue that it was murder, not an accident.

Jury may have got the impression the prosecution was happy to use GL testimony only when it suits them.

 

[Spectrix]

My point is the guy rope and it’s significants isn’t going to prove Lynn’s story is false…. And convict him of murder.

Personally I dont believe Lynn’s story… and that Hill went and got his gun…. But I can’t prove that.

He should easily be found guilty of 2 x Manslaughter, IMO, because ultimately it was his gun that caused both deaths, directly and indirectly …
If his guns were secure and locked away, which they should have been by law, Hill and Clay would still be alive, regardless of any story made up or not made up.

The actions after the deaths should also lead to a lengthy prison term.

Maximum sentence for manslaughter with an extra sentence for his actions after the deaths.
Just my opinion.

If you were to accept Lynn's story about RH taking the gun, it would not equate to a manslaughter charge on Lynn's part so to speak.
Lynn didn't force RH to steal the gun, nor did he force RH to attack him with a knife.
If you were to accept GL's story, there would be provision to charge him for offences related to the unsafe storage of firearms and then for interfering with the corpses and the crime scene after the fact.

 

[Kurve]

Trye but they relied on GL's version of events to determine that CC died from a shot to the head.

Prosecution should have done a similar thing witu death by knife but argue that it was murder, not an accident.

Jury may have got the impression the prosecution was happy to use GL testimony only when it suits them.

They also had fragments of Clay's skull and a piece of lead with her DNA on it.

Nothing for Hill at Bucks Camp.

 

[highcountry]

Innocent people don’t create a vacuum of evidence that could prove their innocence.

 

[nut]

If you were to accept Lynn's story about RH taking the gun, it would not equate to a manslaughter charge on Lynn's part so to speak.
Lynn didn't force RH to steal the gun, nor did he force RH to attack him with a knife.
If you were to accept GL's story, there would be provision to charge him for offences related to the unsafe storage of firearms and then for interfering with the corpses and the crime scene after the fact.

Agree, except Lynn chose not to secure his guns after admitting to arguments with Hill and he chose to go to Hills camp..

I see it as the same as a drunk driver being charged with manslaughter …
The choice was to drive drunk….
Should you only get charged for being drunk?

If Lynn had of stayed at his camp everyone would probably be alive. His actions led to 2 people dying.
In my eyes that’s manslaughter …

 

[Terrafirma]

Re the Chris Dawson Case

Judge only versus Jury (Dawson case was Judge only)

I think judge only would have been better for the Lynn Prosecution IMO

Quote "Professor Sarre expected that process to involve reviewing "every last sentence" uttered by the judge, in the hope of finding "some flaw in his reasoning".

Justice Harrison said the evidence in Dawson's case doesn't reveal how Lynette Dawson was killed, whether her husband had assistance, or the location of her body.

But the judge rejected the sightings as fabrications, unreliable or too "frail"

None of the circumstances could establish guilt when considered alone.

But having considered the circumstantial evidence as a whole, Justice Harrison said he was satisfied beyond reasonable doubt Dawson's guilt was "the only rational inference" to be drawn.

 

[Spectrix]

If Lynn had of stayed at his camp everyone would probably be alive. His actions led to 2 people dying.
In my eyes that’s manslaughter …

Let's pretend that RH didn't later die of an 'accidental stabbing'.

RH stole GL's gun, and accidentally shot CC during the struggle as GL attempted to get his gun back. Wouldn't it be fair to charge RH with Involuntary Manslaughter? After all RH stole the gun, and RH pulled the trigger.

 

[Run n Spread]

General thought regardless of the result of this case and others under dispute.
I reckon 12 in a jury is too many.
Group dynamics take over and those wavering get dominated by the majority and bullied.
6 or even 9 would be better

 

[Zidane98]

Let's pretend that RH didn't later die of an 'accidental stabbing'.

RH stole GL's gun, and accidentally shot CC during the struggle as GL attempted to get his gun back. Wouldn't it be fair to charge RH with Involuntary Manslaughter? After all RH stole the gun, and RH pulled the trigger.

If that's how it went down RH would have been charged with manslaughter if the tragedy ended with CC's death..

 

[nut]

Let's pretend that RH didn't later die of an 'accidental stabbing'.

RH stole GL's gun, and accidentally shot CC during the struggle as GL attempted to get his gun back. Wouldn't it be fair to charge RH with Involuntary Manslaughter? After all RH stole the gun, and RH pulled the trigger.

Well we would have 2 stories to chose from in that case.

I don’t believe Lynn’s story .. and I hope he is punished for his actions that lead to 2 people dying.

I still think, even going by Lynn’s own story, it should be manslaughter.

 

[Sir_Loin]

Thank you Sir_Loin.
Looking at those points, if RH died first as a result of the two men arguing (for instance) and then CC was cleaned up as a witness, Voluntary Manslaughter for CC would be fitting.

I'm not sure if the jury can really invent that narrative though can they?

On your example I’d suggest that would be murder.

It’s largely a circumstantial case as it relates to the murder charge IMO. You dont necessarily need a witness to the events, it’s open to the jury to infer on circumstantial/indirect evidence that he murdered them based on the totality of the evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.

It’s why the jury instructions from the judge are going to so interesting. And any subsequent appeal.

 

[Spectrix]

It’s why the jury instructions from the judge are going to so interesting. And any subsequent appeal.

Thank you. I'm really curious to hear this too. I'm trying to imagine myself as a jury member and despite having doubts about Lynn's version of events, I don't feel that the prosecution have come anywhere close to proving a double murder.

So Lynn's story does, at least for me, raise questions about other ways the incident may have unfolded beyond Lynn simply blowing away two campers who might have seen him hunting too close to camp.

 

[InagoRaida]

Thank you. I'm really curious to hear this too. I'm trying to imagine myself as a jury member and despite having doubts about Lynn's version of events, I don't feel that the prosecution have come anywhere close to proving a double murder.

So Lynn's story does, at least for me, raise questions about other ways the incident may have unfolded beyond Lynn simply blowing away two campers who might have seen him hunting too close to camp.

I truly feel, IMO, the directions to the jury will limit a lot of the effectiveness of the closing address by the Prs.
Dann was very persistant today, and the Prs. had been told he was on the line....very long day.
J. Croucher will be directing his charge to a nice, well rested home Jury pretty much first up, but i believe there will be more Browne & Dunn debate in the morning. I do personally feel the defense damaged the Prs. today, especially in regards to diminishing the value of the incriminating conduct evidence. All directions have been strongly considered against a paradigm of being robust in appeal.
Unfortunately i can't attend tommorrow...my absence from work can't continue after today....so much to catch up on!
Deeply disappointed to miss the jury directions. Will be watching closely for updates!

 

[GladdyDee]

Yes, Prs spent a good few minutes trying to catch out Lynn on the very point ladt Thursday. Lynn ultimately suggested Hill had the gun under the rope, lifting the rope a bit higher...i don't feel anyone believed that explanation...

Its an old Colombo move - bring up something seemingly insignificant and make it central to sweat out the smug suspect who thought they’d committed the perfect murder. GL got tripped by the rope he forgot to factor in, in version #567

 

[Spectrix]

Unfortunately i can't attend tommorrow...my absence from work can't continue after today....so much to catch up on!
Deeply disappointed to miss the jury directions. Will be watching closely for updates!

Thank you again for your updates thus far. I am most appreciative to have heard your account of what you've seen of the trial.

 

[GardenGnome]

How did the Hotham cameras not get the rego?

The rego was concealed on the original photo in the media via the 60mins program. The official photo shows the rego and a fairly clear image of the driver. In this case it seems the camera captured more than just the number plates.

 

[Sir_Loin]

Thank you. I'm really curious to hear this too. I'm trying to imagine myself as a jury member and despite having doubts about Lynn's version of events, I don't feel that the prosecution have come anywhere close to proving a double murder.

So Lynn's story does, at least for me, raise questions about other ways the incident may have unfolded beyond Lynn simply blowing away two campers who might have seen him hunting too close to camp.

The prosecution isn’t alleging a motive. It’s Lynn that says the “accidental deaths” were sparked over a disagreement on his hunting practices. Prosecution is basically arguing that you don’t go to the lengths of the cover up unless you’ve committed the murders. IMO.

 

[InagoRaida]

Thank you again for your updates thus far. I am most appreciative to have heard your account of what you've seen of the trial.

Thankyou Spectrix, and likewise for your thoughtful and considered inputs. It has been, and still is, an absolutely fascinating trial for so many reasons.