Opinion Sack Hinkley 8 - "Ask me in August"

[longdonkey]

I'll give it a go.

Trengove, Carlile, Bergman
Houston, Aliir, Hartlett
Polec, Wines 2014, Boak 2014
Wingard, Marshall, Finlayson
Powell-Pepper, Schulz, Gray

Lobbe, Rozee, Butters
Westhoff, Farrell, Cornes, Monfries

2014 - 13 players
2023- 9 players

The defining factor of all of this is:

Hinkley was given a team that in his first year he took to the second week in the finals, in the second year he took in the 3rd week of the finals. He then brought in players and moulded his own team and in the next 5 years only made the finals once and were out first week.

So he made us worse.

And in my opinion the reason he made us worse is we adopted his game plan. After 2014 the run and gun style was gone and its only re-appeared this year.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Why are people putting Hartlett in as a defender when he didn’t play there until 2017 and literally had no inclination of being one until that time?

2014/2015 Hartlett would have had zero clue how to defend. This is not an exercise on what they would become, it’s what they were at the time.

The practice of naming players in position lines is an archaic tradition not really fit for modern football.

Also, anyone picking 2013-2017 Wines over 2023 Wines isn’t picking a best 23.

Past Supercoach Average Scores

Year Games Average
2013 22 74.0
2014 22 100.3
2015 13 97.3
2016 22 98.1
2017 22 98.9
2018 22 97.3
2019 12 88.3
2020 15 104.3
2021 22 112.5
2022 21 105.5
2023 16 85.2

 

[rogerjames]

Lyon’s ‘yeah, but’ shock at Tim Watson’s reiteration that Hinkley hasn’t delivered a flag in the 11 seasons he’s been here, as if Port Adelaide aren’t eligible for them in the first place

Lyon is an arrogant Vic pr&ck. He would defintely think that.

 

[Peninsula Boy]

The defining factor of all of this is:

Hinkley was given a team that in his first year he took to the second week in the finals, in the second year he took in the 3rd week of the finals. He then brought in players and moulded his own team and in the next 5 years only made the finals once and were out first week.

So he made us worse.

And in my opinion the reason he made us worse is we adopted his game plan. After 2014 the run and gun style was gone and its only re-appeared this year.

I can't disagree with that at all.

Hinkley is a very poor coach but makes young men feel good about themselves and life.

 

[TeeKray]

I can't disagree with that at all.

Hinkley is a very poor coach but makes young men feel good about themselves and life.

And one of the key themes that he uses to make them feel good about themselves is 'it doesn't matter if you lose'.

Sack him.

 

[Janus]

The practice of naming players in position lines is an archaic tradition not really fit for modern football.

Back in 2014 you NEVER would have named Hartlett at half back. It's like someone naming Farrell at half-back before 2022 or Williams at half-back before this year. The only reason why you're doing it is because of their known output now. And Hartlett only became a defender because he didn't have the tank to be a mid after the interchange cap came in.

Past Supercoach Average Scores

Year Games Average
2013 22 74.0
2014 22 100.3
2015 13 97.3
2016 22 98.1
2017 22 98.9
2018 22 97.3
2019 12 88.3
2020 15 104.3
2021 22 112.5
2022 21 105.5
2023 16 85.2

2021 and beyond Wines =



2014 Wines =

 

[Schulzenfest]

Back in 2014 you NEVER would have named Hartlett at half back. It's like someone naming Farrell at half-back before 2022 or Williams at half-back before this year. The only reason why you're doing it is because of their known output now. And Hartlett only became a defender because he didn't have the tank to be a mid after the interchange cap came in.



2021 and beyond Wines =

View attachment 1737886

2014 Wines =

View attachment 1737890

You were asking if we'd swap players from 2013-2014 to 2023. You can't use Wines' 2021. May as well throw in Robbie Gray to our current side if you're going to make that argument.

 

[thundercloud]

And one of the key themes that he uses to make them feel good about themselves is 'it doesn't matter if you lose'.

Sack him.

The majority does not view it this way!
53.3% think that hinkley will be at alberton 2024!
How can yu critique by attaching an environment where young men feel good about themselves to does not matter if lose is really dredging for another misplaced unfounded criticism.

 

[PowerLil]

And one of the key themes that he uses to make them feel good about themselves is 'it doesn't matter if you lose'.

Sack him.

Before the arrival of the brilliant minded Hinkley, I'd never heard of the following associated with Port Adelaide "We wrap our arms around each other, connection, white noise, it's a tough competition, co-captains, supporters are idiots, finals are overrated". I'm sure there are dozens more but I'm supposed to be working. His tenure is a blight on our history.

 

[Janus]

You were asking if we'd swap players from 2013-2014 to 2023. You can't use Wines' 2021. May as well throw in Robbie Gray to our current side if you're going to make that argument.

I'm not using his 2021. I'm saying that he is a better player now (2021-present) than he was in 2014. That should be undisputed. Besides, using Supercoach stats when everyone acknowledges that we have moved to a gameplan where we don't overpossess the ball and move through the corridor as much as possible is facetious - in 2014 we averaged 373.2 disposals per game, whereas in 2023 we are only averaging 337.1 disposals per game. In 2021 when Wines won the Brownlow, we averaged 382.4 disposals per game.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Back in 2014 you NEVER would have named Hartlett at half back. It's like someone naming Farrell at half-back before 2022 or Williams at half-back before this year. The only reason why you're doing it is because of their known output now. And Hartlett only became a defender because he didn't have the tank to be a mid after the interchange cap came in.

I can move Westhoff to half back and Hartlett to the wing if you'd like, you're clutching at straws. It's a best 22. If I have to put a "real" defender in there I'm probably going for Broadbent(14) and moving Hartlett(14) to sub, knocking out another (23) player from the best 23.

2021 and beyond Wines =

View attachment 1737886

2014 Wines =

View attachment 1737890

You can't in one breath argue that Hartlett can't play halfback because he hadn't yet in 2014 then in the next claim Wines 2021 Brownlow as evidence that he's better in 2023 than he was in 2014. We're not talking about the 2021 list.

You're dramatically underrating how good Wines was in 2014.

 

[TeeKray]

Wines is probably better in 2023 than 2014 but he was still a bloody good player in 2014, it's not a significant difference.

 

[El_Scorcho]

I'm not using his 2021. I'm saying that he is a better player now (2021-present) than he was in 2014. That should be undisputed. Besides, using Supercoach stats when everyone acknowledges that we have moved to a gameplan where we don't overpossess the ball and move through the corridor as much as possible is facetious - in 2014 we averaged 373.2 disposals per game, whereas in 2023 we are only averaging 337.1 disposals per game. In 2021 when Wines won the Brownlow, we averaged 382.4 disposals per game.

2014 Wines averaged more disposals, tackles, clearances, I50s, metres gained and coaches votes than 2023 Wines.

It's pretty straightforward.

 

[Duck Farmer]

1. Makes outlandish contrarian statement
2. Argument disintegrates in the face of factual evidence
3. Moves goalposts
4. ???
5. Profit

 

[TeeKray]

2014 Wines averaged more disposals, tackles, clearances, I50s, metres gained and coaches votes than 2023 Wines.

It's pretty straightforward.

It's not a fair comparison, our midfield is so deep now that he starts on the wing half the time. Our mids don't get big stats because the load is shared across so many players.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Wines is probably better in 2023 than 2014 but he was still a bloody good player in 2014, it's not a significant difference.

Not statistically.

Wines was an absolute jet in 2014. He regressed along with everyone on our list in the 2015-19 era but he was an elite midfielder in 2014. Janus is just underrating 2014 Wines to try to rescue a comfortably lost argument.

 

[Janus]

I can move Westhoff to half back and Hartlett to the wing if you'd like, you're clutching at straws. It's a best 22.

Yes, a best 22 that actually has to take the field, not an AA best 22 where you put players anywhere. And putting Hartlett on a wing when he didn't have a tank? Nahhh.

If I have to put a "real" defender in there I'm probably going for Broadbent(14) and moving Hartlett(14) to sub, knocking out another (23) player from the best 23.

Now this is fair enough. Broadbent was a good defender, and Hartlett as a sub would work well.

Now just get rid of the excess of talls you have that would blow up because of the interchange cap and we're in business.

You can't in one breath argue that Hartlett can't play halfback because he hadn't yet in 2014 then in the next claim Wines 2021 Brownlow as evidence that he's better in 2023 than he was in 2014. We're not talking about the 2021 list.

You're dramatically underrating how good Wines was in 2014.

As I said, I'm not claiming his 2021 year. I'm just saying that because he had that year, and due to the changes in our gameplan for this year, Wines is a far better player now than he was then.

 

[El_Scorcho]

It's not a fair comparison, our midfield is so deep now that he starts on the wing half the time. Our mids don't get big stats because the load is shared across so many players.

In 2014 we had Boak, Gray, Ebert, Hartlett and Polec in their primes, Cornes still very effective and Wingard rotating through.

It's part of why we were half a kick away from a GF.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Yes, a best 22 that actually has to take the field, not an AA best 22 where you put players anywhere. And putting Hartlett on a wing when he didn't have a tank? Nahhh.

Now this is fair enough. Broadbent was a good defender, and Hartlett as a sub would work well.

Now just get rid of the excess of talls you have that would blow up because of the interchange cap and we're in business.

As I said, I'm not claiming his 2021 year. I'm just saying that because he had that year, and due to the changes in our gameplan for this year, Wines is a far better player now than he was then.

I don't think you can reference the interchange cap. We're talking about premiership ready teams. In 2014 we had a premiership ready team and they didn't have the same interchange cap restrictions, so you can't judge the 2014 players by the 2023 rules and vice versa. There's also the standard of competition. 2014 had dynasty era Hawks and Cats sides as well as the reigning premier Swans and Ross Lyon's defensive slog Freo side who would play in a GF the following year. This year it's Collingwood, us, Brisbane who can't win away, Melbourne who are wildly inconsistent and then Essendon and St Kilda in 5th and 6th. So what "premiership ready" looks like is dependent on what's around. It's partly why 2020's failure is so brutal, we had a clean run when every other team bar Brisbane was in all sorts and there were no really elite teams at all.

Farrell could potentially come into that last halfback spot as well, it's marginal. Marshall would be the tall to come out but I maintain that Marshall, Dixon and Finlayson are mobile and fit enough that going in tall doesn't really hurt us, and Schulz spent more time on the field than anyone else in 2014 despite our hard running gameplan.

I think we could argue a lot about the fringe ins and outs, but the point is that both sides were pretty close to the same level of premiership ready. It's a myth that we're somehow significantly ahead now of where we were in 2020 or 2013. Ultimately we're just winning close ones this year where we lost a bunch of close ones in the back half of 2014. That prelim is a different game at the 2014 Portress if we sneak over the line in a few games and finish top 2

Wines is generally a better player now, but his 2014 season was better than his 2023 season unless something significant changes. I guess you could argue that his form has dropped off because of the rise of Rozee and Butters, but he was playing behind Boak and Gray in 2014 and still putting up elite inside mid numbers.

 

[Steve Dore]

The majority does not view it this way!
53.3% think that hinkley will be at alberton 2024!
How can yu critique by attaching an environment where young men feel good about themselves to does not matter if lose is really dredging for another misplaced unfounded criticism.

I believe that Hinkley will be at Alberton in 2024 because Koch is a former morning TV show buffoon who has no idea what it takes to be a successful professional sporting organisation. Hinkley being at Alberton in 2024 has nothing to do with his prowess as a senior AFL coach. It is simply a reflection of how Koch favours stability over success.

"How can yu critique by attaching an environment where young men feel good about themselves to does not matter if lose is really dredging for another misplaced unfounded criticism."

What does that even mean?

Hinkley making players feel good about losing is not a positive.

Sack Hinkley.

 

[Peninsula Boy]

And one of the key themes that he uses to make them feel good about themselves is 'it doesn't matter if you lose'.

Sack him.

You hear that thread when Boak talks and it really irks me because he's been such a good player of the club but with that unPort Adelaide attitutde.

You can easily see why we have never done much with Hinkley and Boak.

 

[Steve Dore]

Janus and Thunderpants posting in this thread at the same time.

 

[tribey]

2014 Wines =

26 & 3 with 7 clearances/7 inside50’s in an away Semi Final as a 19 year old with less than 50 games under his belt.

No Brownlow Votes awarded in that one, admittedly…

 

[Watto71]

Y

Here's a fun scenario:

Koch & Co begin negotiations with Hinkley's agent for a 2-3 year extension.
We lose to Carlton, Collingwood, and the Crows.
Carr interviews for the Richmond job.
Ken's extension gets announced in the first week of August, right before our Geelong game, which we lose.
We beat Giants and Freo, and lose to Richmond, to finish the season with 16 wins and 7 losses.
Going into finals with Dixon, Lycett, Aliir, JHF, and McKenzie under injury clouds.
Underdone backups in Lord, Hayes, Fantasia, and Visentini.
Jonas is back as a regular in the side.
Play Collingwood in the first QF and lose
Play Adelaide in the SF and lose.
Richmond announce Carr as their head coach for 2024.
Dixon, Lycett, Boak, McKenzie, Clurey, all announce their retirements.
Hinkley windmills his way to his shuttered oasis.
We wake up in February and go through the whole nightmare again.

You just gave me that sick feeling deep in my stomach

 

[Janus]

In 2014 we had Boak, Gray, Ebert, Hartlett and Polec in their primes, Cornes still very effective and Wingard rotating through.

It's part of why we were half a kick away from a GF.

And then Kane retired in 2015, Polec did his navicular and was never the same player, Hartlett's lack of a tank was exposed by the reduction in interchange rotations and Ebert started suffering from concussion issues.

Also you keep forgetting that in 2014 the rotation cap was 120. It is now 75.