Coach Sam Mitchell's direction for the club and 2024 news

[Strapping Young Lad]

If anyone wants to have a listen about what the data is saying in regards to whether we have actually gotten worse this year have a listen to this from the 9:15 mark.

I know a few people have already touched on it, but the data is also showing that our results this year have been slightly better despite actually putting out a younger team and dealing with some injuries.




And here.

 

[CHUBBSS]

I wouldn't get carried away just yet mate lol. Gamestyle are all well and good they require execution. We are hit and miss in this category from game to game from training session to training session. You can tell that just from watching the Nth game. Its a work in progress we have struggled with transition football for the last 4 to 5 years. Its the best transition football we have played since the GWS game last year. We may come out next week and not look like the same team for two reasons our skills and the opposition after all that win was based on our ability to defend and then attack. We are on the right track but there is still a long way to go

Definitely but confidence seems to be back in vougue, last night we played confidence footy and its infectious once it catches, still a long way to go but feels like the sides overall footy IQ has gone up dramatically with the seniors and kids that have come in.

The bolded part is the biggest change for me, skills were good to which was surprising.

 

[SammyC]

I saw a defensive system as the foundation of our win. Port won the ball and held possession but couldn’t penetrate.

That is Clarko dna and Mitch has been wise to not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

The fast transition and spread on rebound or win from the contest is new. That is part personnel and selection but must also be part coaching. I loved what I saw and the young team who delivered it.

Helps having probably our two best players back in gunston and Sicily but Nash and Newcombe in the middle is a revelation. More please.

 

[Mercy Seat]

I saw a defensive system as the foundation of our win. Port won the ball and held possession but couldn’t penetrate.

That is Clarko dna and Mitch has been wise to not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

The fast transition and spread on rebound or win from the contest is new. That is part personnel and selection but must also be part coaching. I loved what I saw and the young team who delivered it.

Helps having probably our two best players back in gunston and Sicily but Nash and Newcombe in the middle is a revelation. More please.

Our gameplan doesn’t look miles apart what we tried to do and pulled off occasionally last year, we were just much much better at it last night. Sam’s biggest credit at this point, in my view, is backing in and connecting with younger brigade, and having them seemingly all buy in.

Watching them move the ball out of half back was a sight to behold. Long may it continue.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Our gameplan doesn’t look miles apart what we tried to do and pulled off occasionally last year,

Eh?

They’re like chalk and cheese.

 

[Brishawk]

Eh?

They’re like chalk and cheese.

Still trying to win the ball back at half back after losing the clearances

 

[eldorado]

Still trying to win the ball back at half back after losing the clearances

That's a constant.

 

[SSSSSS]

Our gameplan doesn’t look miles apart what we tried to do and pulled off occasionally last year, we were just much much better at it last night. Sam’s biggest credit at this point, in my view, is backing in and connecting with younger brigade, and having them seemingly all buy in.

Watching them move the ball out of half back was a sight to behold. Long may it continue.

Either you've sunk too many 'happy tinnies' and got plastered watching us the last two games, or like me you sunk too many 'sad tinnies' trying to erase the memories of how woeful we played last year.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

I wouldn't get carried away just yet mate lol. Gamestyle are all well and good they require execution. We are hit and miss in this category from game to game from training session to training session. You can tell that just from watching the Nth game. Its a work in progress we have struggled with transition football for the last 4 to 5 years. Its the best transition football we have played since the GWS game last year. We may come out next week and not look like the same team for two reasons our skills and the opposition after all that win was based on our ability to defend and then attack. We are on the right track but there is still a long way to go

I'd counter that I can see in these first two games a distinct gamestyle based on moving the ball quickly and making space. Will it work every week, no of course not.

But what was our style the last three years under Clarko? It was an ultra defensive style that played the percentages (long dump out kick to a pack down the wing, long kick to a pack in the forward pocket, etc). It happened way too often to be just down to players performance in the day, it was what they were being instructed to do.

The player snare obviously being given different instructions by Sam, I can't believe anyone could doubt that.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Either you've sunk too many 'happy tinnies' and got plastered watching us the last two games, or like me you sunk too many 'sad tinnies' trying to erase the memories of how woeful we played last year.

Oh god yeh, we were flat out depressing to watch at times over the last three years.

It's not that we were getting pumped (can't recall many floggings and U reckon most games the boys tried) but it was like watching a team playing footy by committee.

You could see the players do the math in their heads when they went back on the mark "I could try and make that attacking kick down the middle of the ground or play on but if I stuff it up I will be benched so I better bang it long down the wing to Big Boy again".

And by the time they worked this out the opposition had already flooded back in preparation for the long dump out kick that everyone knew was coming all along

 

[Mrzohs]

Just checking in with all the doomsday Clarko and Hawthorn posters on here.

I posted regularly we have a very strong back 6 quickly coming together. To think W.day and J.Impey have not played a game, two off our best 6-8 defenders rotating thru. Currently we have the lowest scores against by a fair margin.

Safe to say we need two more top 10 picks in the draft, midfielders to go with Ward,Mac,Duke and we can start to see a rise again.

Good early signs from Lewis this year, Moore started strong. If Jeka,Callow,Kosi can cement another missing piece up fwd, would be great.

 

[TheFourPillars]

I'd counter that I can see in these first two games a distinct gamestyle based on moving the ball quickly and making space. Will it work every week, no of course not.

But what was our style the last three years under Clarko? It was an ultra defensive style that played the percentages (long dump out kick to a pack down the wing, long kick to a pack in the forward pocket, etc). It happened way too often to be just down to players performance in the day, it was what they were being instructed to do.

The player snare obviously being given different instructions by Sam, I can't believe anyone could doubt that.

Yeah my post was not about clarko mate. But i think you will probably see us go down the line against certain opposition

 

[H00t]

Yeah my post was not about clarko mate. But i think you will probably see us go down the line against certain opposition

It will be a big test of our mettle against teams that set up well and don’t let us run the ball quickly. Melbourne is one that does it very well.

I just hope we have a plan B and C when it happens. We’ve needed to find a reliable way through a well set up defence for a while now.

 

[theiaofseed]

I do like that jack

 

[CaptainWorpedo]

Two things stand out for me so far in Mitchells coaching.

1. The players are playing for there coach and each other, plenty of heart.

2. Mitchell has his game plan, but he makes moves when required to nullify the oppositions strengths during the game in good time. I feel this is a great skill set and one that will point us in the directions of finals quickly.

 

[Randy Campbell]

I do like that jack

Someone needs to remind Jack that Hawthorn's greatest coach of all time has not even been born yet.

 

[Mercy Seat]

Eh?

They’re like chalk and cheese.

The games we did win last year, particularly in the back half (ie GWS, Sydney games), were about soaking up and dominating from the half back line and quick transition into our forward half. That’s the main dna of the game style that we’ve clearly done in the two games we’ve seen this year.

I’m just talking broadly. The execution is a completely different story and the most pleasing thing so far has been ball movement from back to forward which is something we continually struggled with for the past few years.

 

[Tassie Cryptik]

That was Sam.

 

[Slainte]

This game style is going to frustrate the stats watches out there. You can’t judge a midfielders game by the amount of disposals he has. It’s all about driving the ball forward as fast as possible.
No junk possessions. Nothing that’s unproductive. Fast, long, to the forwards advantage. Footy is such a simple game

That is why I gave Nash a Yabby vote. Stats were unimpressive but his forward momentum was terrific.

 

[threesixpio]

West Coast supporters must be looking at Mitchell and Hickmott winning Hawks and crying into their beers …I would

 

[KermitJagger]

The games we did win last year, particularly in the back half (ie GWS, Sydney games), were about soaking up and dominating from the half back line and quick transition into our forward half. That’s the main dna of the game style that we’ve clearly done in the two games we’ve seen this year.

I’m just talking broadly. The execution is a completely different story and the most pleasing thing so far has been ball movement from back to forward which is something we continually struggled with for the past few years.

Interesting, the games we won in the back half last year had similarities... I wonder what happened in the back half last year to make it that way!

I remember from your postings you were never that comfortable with the way things worked out, but the game plan is fairly different. We're still defending well but the way we're defending has changed, we're backing in our players to attend and win more 1:1s - in 2021 our player that attended the most 1:1s was Frost who wasn't inside the top 30 in the league for that stat. In 2022 we've got 3 inside the top 30, and 2 inside the top 10. Clarko's defensive strategies would have never allowed for that and Clarko himself would never be comfortable with it.

The reason the transition is working is because we have more outlets due to Clarko's defensive style effectively flooding D50 to avoid 1:1 situations. Mitchell's style has more confidence in the players to win it back. Because it has more confidence in the players it means there is less congestion in D50 for our defenders to peel off and intercept, rather than killing the ball out of bounds in a pack or forcing a stoppage. Due to that we also have 3 of the top 10 in the league for intercept possessions.

There is obviously some Clarko in it, because Mitchell played and coached under Clarko, but it's a synthesis of that and other tactics.

 

[flinchfree]

Our gameplan doesn’t look miles apart what we tried to do and pulled off occasionally last year, we were just much much better at it last night. Sam’s biggest credit at this point, in my view, is backing in and connecting with younger brigade, and having them seemingly all buy in.

Watching them move the ball out of half back was a sight to behold. Long may it continue.

Oh my.
By that measure football looks much as it did in 1977.
Sure there are similarities in game play once the ball is in motion, players still fill many of the same positions, still look for eachother in space, etc etc.
But your setups, the spots players run to to receive, the parts of the ground you look to use on the way forward, the specific players you look to use to transition it, how many are supposed to get forward and how many are supposed to hold back, the way the followers set to attack restarts and where they think their support is, whether playing on at whatever cost is required and at what point, whether to use the foot or hand to pass the ball, tackling patterns and when to leave or stay to provid extra numbers around contested ball, yada yada yada yada.

I think it's butt easy to see changes in ALL those acts plus more.
ZERO chance Sam came in and said just follow what Clarko did but do it better. EVERY coach has a full book of what his gameplan looks like and how it plays out in games.
NOT to say that a strong defence and transitioning it from there aren't core demands from both Clarko AND Sam, in fact EVERY coach demands exactly the same.

But it's HOW you do it, the minutae of all the ways it can play out, that are the hallmark of every coach.
And when what you're doing works well and you have players who can implement it, you stay the course largely.
And when teams start overcoming what you do, either because they have a new take on how they play or because you no longer have the players to implement and win at your style, you either come up with a new spin that is successful or the Club moves you on.

The need to hold and attribute future/current success with previous coaching is dumb.
By that measure Parkin's success was actually Kangas, Jeansy's was Parko's, Joyces was Jeansy's (WHICH IT WAS ), and Clarkos was.......well nah, Clarko REBUILT Hawthorn success.
But Clarko ALSO oversaw the degradation and diminution of our competitiveness, and rarely looked to have or be willing to try significantly different personel or tactics to create a new path. Nor did players appear to be happy, which played out in the way they played, talk of discontent, large divisions between younger players and established, etc etc.

I can't actually believe you are saying what you have about playing style to be honest, but it matches many on here who thought Box Hill played the same game as Hawthorn even though it was painfully obvious that was untrue. And then was illuminated by both Box Hill AND Hawthorn players who have said that Sam's game plan is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT IN NEARLY ALL ASPECTS, and that they are feeling like first year players learning anew what the coach wanted from them on the field.

How long this narrative you've spoken gets repeated seems painfully infinte despite EVERY piece of evidence we have been given.

 

[Mercy Seat]

Interesting, the games we won in the back half last year had similarities... I wonder what happened in the back half last year to make it that way!

I remember from your postings you were never that comfortable with the way things worked out, but the game plan is fairly different. We're still defending well but the way we're defending has changed, we're backing in our players to attend and win more 1:1s - in 2021 our player that attended the most 1:1s was Frost who wasn't inside the top 30 in the league for that stat. In 2022 we've got 3 inside the top 30, and 2 inside the top 10. Clarko's defensive strategies would have never allowed for that and Clarko himself would never be comfortable with it.

The reason the transition is working is because we have more outlets due to Clarko's defensive style effectively flooding D50 to avoid 1:1 situations. Mitchell's style has more confidence in the players to win it back. Because it has more confidence in the players it means there is less congestion in D50 for our defenders to peel off and intercept, rather than killing the ball out of bounds in a pack or forcing a stoppage. Due to that we also have 3 of the top 10 in the league for intercept possessions.

There is obviously some Clarko in it, because Mitchell played and coached under Clarko, but it's a synthesis of that and other tactics.

Ugh, first off, I agree with what you’re saying. I really don’t want to get into a Clarko Sam thing, I just made an offhand comment to someone else’s comment that we haven’t thrown the baby out with the bath water, which I agree with, but am now getting drawn into the rabbit hole to explain.

Nonetheless, I stand by the viewpoint, that from a very small sample size, it appears we are playing a game style that is happy to sacrifice clearances and centre dominance, for a well defended rebound structure. And this is something, albeit in completely different incarnations, isnt new.

The way we are going about it though and the execution, particularly in the way we are defending as you say, is new (though we’ve only faced two pretty average forward lines to date, so I’m interested to see what happens when we do).

As for the coaching change, I was really unhappy with the way we went about it, but still believe it was 100% the right call, and couldn’t be happier with what I’ve seen from Sam to date.

 

[flinchfree]

.............

Nonetheless, I stand by the viewpoint, that from a very small sample size, it appears we are playing a game style that is happy to sacrifice clearances and centre dominance, for a well defended rebound structure. And this is something, albeit in completely different incarnations, isnt new.

And this, in essence, is everything that is wrong with the assessment.

Take a quick listen to Sam's presser post game. As soon as the statistics are given by a reporter about losing clearances and center dominance and contested, he smiles and says that's not a sustainable stat and that we'd be looking to make changes to rectify it.

Contrast to Clarko, who whenever that stat was brought up said it wasn't a metric that mattered to him.

Couldn't be more different. We just aren't good enough yet in the area, but that won't be an 'acceptable' game plan trait for this team under Sam Mitchell.

 

[Mercy Seat]

And this, in essence, is everything that is wrong with the assessment.

Take a quick listen to Sam's presser post game. As soon as the statistics are given by a reporter about losing clearances and center dominance and contested, he smiles and says that's not a sustainable stat and that we'd be looking to make changes to rectify it.

Contrast to Clarko, who whenever that stat was brought up said it wasn't a metric that mattered to him.

Couldn't be more different. We just aren't good enough yet in the area, but that won't be an 'acceptable' game plan trait for this team under Sam Mitchell.

I’m just basing it off what I’ve seen mate.

Regardless, no team or midfield wants to be smashed in clearances, no matter what your game plan is.

But it doesn’t change the fact that most of our scoring will come from the back half.

 

[KermitJagger]

Ugh, first off, I agree with what you’re saying. I really don’t want to get into a Clarko Sam thing, I just made an offhand comment to someone else’s comment that we haven’t thrown the baby out with the bath water, which I agree with, but am now getting drawn into the rabbit hole to explain.

Nonetheless, I stand by the viewpoint, that from a very small sample size, it appears we are playing a game style that is happy to sacrifice clearances and centre dominance, for a well defended rebound structure. And this is something, albeit in completely different incarnations, isnt new.

The way we are going about it though and the execution, particularly in the way we are defending as you say, is new (though we’ve only faced two pretty average forward lines to date, so I’m interested to see what happens when we do).

As for the coaching change, I was really unhappy with the way we went about it, but still believe it was 100% the right call, and couldn’t be happier with what I’ve seen from Sam to date.

That's fine, but I don't think Sam is necessarily happy to be losing in a clearance situation and it's not an intentional move in the same way it was for Clarko. Sam uses the spare man in defense as Clarko did, but he's not doing it through games he's only doing it at important situations such as the end of quarters - it's not an immediate set up.

No one ever throws the baby out with the bathwater, really. Coaching is thesis, antithesis and synthesis - the things that work are constantly challenged, but they're never completely supplanted and replaced. Rebound football, zone defense, F50 pressure - they're all common parts of every coach's arsenal (particularly if they're part of the same coaching pathway) but they were all developed in response to what was the successful strategy of the time. Hardwick for example, though his team played what seemed radically different football to ours in 2013-2015, still had quite a lot of the DNA directly from other successful teams. He still used a rotating zone defense like the Hawks did, and the immense forward 50 pressure was borrowed directly from us with Cyril, Puopolo and Breust.

So in other words, small changes can be big changes in coaching strategy. Things can appear largely the same but still be very different.