Coach Sam Mitchell's direction for the club and 2024 news

[Strapping Young Lad]

If anyone wants to have a listen about what the data is saying in regards to whether we have actually gotten worse this year have a listen to this from the 9:15 mark.

I know a few people have already touched on it, but the data is also showing that our results this year have been slightly better despite actually putting out a younger team and dealing with some injuries.




And here.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Interesting take

Lynch, Shiel and Cogs are all pipe dreams. We all had ways of convincing ourselves it would happen - even the club were buying assurances given to us in certain cases. End of the day none of them had their photo in front of the Kanga statue - all of them were pipe dreams and examples of our parlous list management of recent years.

It will be interesting to see how the new leadership at the club approaches any potential future high profile free agents. Maybe the lowball ‘cos we are Hawthorn’ offers will be a thing of the past like our past tendencies to just give opposition sides everything they ask for at the trade table.

 

[Brant]

Lynch, Shiel and Cogs are all pipe dreams. We all had ways of convincing ourselves it would happen - even the club were buying assurances given to us in certain cases. End of the day none of them had their photo in front of the Kanga statue - all of them were pipe dreams and examples of our parlous list management of recent years.

It will be interesting to see how the new leadership at the club approaches any potential future high profile free agents. Maybe the lowball ‘cos we are Hawthorn’ offers will be a thing of the past like our past tendencies to just give opposition sides everything they ask for at the trade table.

You keep saying 'pipe-dream'. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Lynch - agreed.
Shiel - we walked away from the price.
Cogs - GilWS screwed that up (for better or for worse)

2 of those 3 are not 'pipe-dreams'.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

You keep saying 'pipe-dream'. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Lynch - agreed.
Shiel - we walked away from the price.
Cogs - GilWS screwed that up (for better or for worse)

2 of those 3 are not 'pipe-dreams'.

Shiel I will cop the semantic argument because he had allegedly agreed. Granted - if he had agreed like people suggest on here then why was he taking jet rides with Carlton. For all the talk that he was all but signed up he was certainly happy to hear from other sides.

Well Cogs was a pipe dream - we had all convinced ourselves he was going to sign here (best mates with Jaeger, business interests in Victoria etc etc). If he was happy to walk for money. If he had given verbal agreements or overtures - did we really think he was going to accept less money (I am fairly certain the GWS offer without the crazy ambassador money would still have trumped ours because we always lowballed) to come to a side that had just had a dismal season when he could stay in a side that had just made a grand final?

I think in both cases we sold ourselves on the hope - both supporters and the club itself - and both proved to be fanciful chances at best if the players involved just took the highest money offer they could get. As such I am sticking by pipe dreams.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Yeah look, I don’t think we need to perform another trade and draft review of 3 years ago.

It’s kinda been done… about 500 times.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Shiel I will cop the semantic argument because he had allegedly agreed. Granted - if he had agreed like people suggest on here then why was he taking jet rides with Carlton. For all the talk that he was all but signed up he was certainly happy to hear from other sides.

Well Cogs was a pipe dream - we had all convinced ourselves he was going to sign here (best mates with Jaeger, business interests in Victoria etc etc). If he was happy to walk for money. If he had given verbal agreements or overtures - did we really think he was going to accept less money (I am fairly certain the GWS offer without the crazy ambassador money would still have trumped ours because we always lowballed) to come to a side that had just had a dismal season when he could stay in a side that had just made a grand final?

I think in both cases we sold ourselves on the hope - both supporters and the club itself - and both proved to be fanciful chances at best if the players involved just took the highest money offer they could get. As such I am sticking by pipe dreams.

You're wrong regarding Coniglio mate, and this is a fact.

 

[Slainte]

It is way too easy to be right in retrospect. If rebuilds through the draft were a sure pathway to success, we would not have teams waiting three, four or five decades to salute. Premierships require hard work, luck and planning. There is no simple or sure pathway, except for armchair experts.

Mitchell wil do the hard work and we hope that those around him and the board are able to manage the planning. They say you make your own luck but I think a lot is just random stuff happening.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Granted that it’s been a while since we’ve needed to, but we’ve never pumped up our coaching group like this before.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

I know there is the usual hand-wringing about any use of colour that isn't gold and brown - but those training shirts are absolutely mint for mine.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Yeah look, I don’t think we need to perform another trade and draft review of 3 years ago.

It’s kinda been done… about 500 times.

It's a summer of classic hits. We are doing Roughy to CHB next.

 

[KermitJagger]

Granted that it’s been a while since we’ve needed to, but we’ve never pumped up our coaching group like this before.

Complete shift in the way we're doing media, and I'm enjoying it.

Have to admit I rate this coaching group highly even without the club spruiking it. Haven't been as excited since we had Glass as defensive coach, he was an underrated piece in our 2018 finish.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Complete shift in the way we're doing media, and I'm enjoying it.

Have to admit I rate this coaching group highly even without the club spruiking it. Haven't been as excited since we had Glass as defensive coach, he was an underrated piece in our 2018 finish.

Notable difference in the social media presentation and engagement with supporters. The number presentations was way more meaningful this year than just telling a handful of supporters who are able to get to the family day.

Makes me wonder if the coaching access last year on the Box Hill socials was actually Sam's idea.

 

[Mercy Seat]

I should point out there was literally no one on this board crying out for a rebuild in 2017/18. It was all “in Wright we trust” posts and speculation on who we needed to top up with next.

Cyril was a black swan event I’ll grant you that. The risks were worth taking? I don’t agree. The assets we traded for Jaeger and Wingard in that period were ridiculous and absolutey hampered any chance of getting younger talent in. Topping up may have its merits, but does it really necessitate not having a draft pick below pick 45 over a 5 year period immediately following a period where we finished in the last 4 sides and therefore weren’t getting access to the best young players.

Yes it’s easy to pick holes in this with hindsight - but Wright, Clarko et al are the ones meant to have the foresight. Over this time we never adapted, free agents continued to spurn us and we just banked on verbal agreements or vain hope. Despite drastically overpaying for Jaeger we just did the exact same stupid thing in 2018 with Wingard. So we refused to pay overs with free agency where it might actually work but continue to just piss away draft picks when we had a drastically ageing side with little in the way of A grade talent in the younger age bracket.

You talk about a strong finish to 2017 - that’s just not true. We predominantly finished the year beating sides in similar or lower ladder positions. It was one of many false dawns over this period (back end of 2019 being another). It’s why I’m not reading much into our end of year run in 2021 and am instead focusing on the youth we have and keen to watch their development. I don’t care if we win 6 games this year so long as the green shoots are forming with our 18-21 year old players.

Again, supporters are allowed to buy in to false hope but footy departments should not. Clarko and Wright obviously sold the entire board on this strategy, so much so that the club promised 2 premierships by next year. Yes certain events didn’t go our way - but the writing was on the wall in 2018 (free agents already burned us, Cyril was gone, we finished top 4 but only through luck) and Clarko and Wright still spent too much on trades. By then it should have been evident and the course corrected by those higher up were blinded by past success and possibly a hint of hubris.

We owe Clarko a debt of immense gratitude and he’ll always rank highly in my mind - but he absolutely has to wear not being able to adequately appraise our list from 2016 onwards.

Fundamentally I agree with much of what you’re saying in that it was a miscalculation, but I’m quite strong that with the intel we had at the time, we made the right call. Nonetheless, let’s not de-rail the thread, what’s done is done.

I’ll put this to you, there are a number of posters who think that the list is actually in good shape. Despite moving on more than half the list in a small period of time, there is optimism with our kids and some supporters are even talking up finals next year. IF we do bounce up the ladder (big if), then does it matter that we didn’t do a full rebuild in 2018/19? The timeframe of improvement then versus when we ended up doing it would be pretty much identical?

(Ps personally I don’t fall into this camp, but it’s an interesting discussion).

 

[Mojo]

I know there is the usual hand-wringing about any use of colour that isn't gold and brown - but those training shirts are absolutely mint for mine.

Training gear is completely fair game.

They can train ala Average Joes for all I care.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Training gear is completely fair game.

They can train ala Average Joes for all I care.

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100% agree - but some here and on the socials lose their mind if we wear any colour that isn't brown and gold. Which most years with training kits is the case.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

I should point out there was literally no one on this board crying out for a rebuild in 2017/18. It was all “in Wright we trust” posts and speculation on who we needed to top up with next.

Fundamentally I agree with much of what you’re saying in that it was a miscalculation, but I’m quite strong that with the intel we had at the time, we made the right call. Nonetheless, let’s not de-rail the thread, what’s done is done.

I’ll put this to you, there are a number of posters who think that the list is actually in good shape. Despite moving on more than half the list in a small period of time, there is optimism with our kids and some supporters are even talking up finals next year. IF we do bounce up the ladder (big if), then does it matter that we didn’t do a full rebuild in 2018/19? The timeframe of improvement then versus when we ended up doing it would be pretty much identical?

(Ps personally I don’t fall into this camp, but it’s an interesting discussion).

I think there were actually a couple who were calling for the rebuild in 2017/18, so they get bragging rights here. I was in the let's top up camp and believed as strongly in trading in talent as opposed to taking the punt on the draft - so I 100% got it wrong also. That is just my point though - I am allowed to be wrong because I dictate zero terms at the HFC.

To bring this into the topic at hand - I already see runs on the board for McKenzie and Collins. The brains trust already around Mitchell I am excited about - just as I am excited about Sam himself at the reins. I think the list is in better shape to move forward than it has been in a long time, we are now one of the youngest sides in the competition. The rest is up to Sam - let's see if his footy IQ translates into the magnet moving part of the game.

 

[kirbatron]

I think there were actually a couple who were calling for the rebuild in 2017/18, so they get bragging rights here. I was in the let's top up camp and believed as strongly in trading in talent as opposed to taking the punt on the draft - so I 100% got it wrong also. That is just my point though - I am allowed to be wrong because I dictate zero terms at the HFC.

To bring this into the topic at hand - I already see runs on the board for McKenzie and Collins. The brains trust already around Mitchell I am excited about - just as I am excited about Sam himself at the reins. I think the list is in better shape to move forward than it has been in a long time, we are now one of the youngest sides in the competition. The rest is up to Sam - let's see if his footy IQ translates into the magnet moving part of the game.

i think wright did want to go to draft & it turned into a big barney with AC.not sure what year this was tho

 

[Blackhawk42]

I think there were actually a couple who were calling for the rebuild in 2017/18, so they get bragging rights here. I was in the let's top up camp and believed as strongly in trading in talent as opposed to taking the punt on the draft - so I 100% got it wrong also. That is just my point though - I am allowed to be wrong because I dictate zero terms at the HFC.

To bring this into the topic at hand - I already see runs on the board for McKenzie and Collins. The brains trust already around Mitchell I am excited about - just as I am excited about Sam himself at the reins. I think the list is in better shape to move forward than it has been in a long time, we are now one of the youngest sides in the competition. The rest is up to Sam - let's see if his footy IQ translates into the magnet moving part of the game.

The impending 2018 'superdraft' is what really muddied the waters for some, myself included.

We were very lucky to end up with Kosi in the end.

 

[phlogiston]

We owe Clarko a debt of immense gratitude and he’ll always rank highly in my mind - but he absolutely has to wear not being able to adequately appraise our list from 2016 onwards.

Just on that one, not sure if you mean start of 2016 or end of 2016. If the former, disagree: was always worth loading up for four in a row, and de-prioritize the cost down the road. If the latter, yep, agree with you.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Just on that one, not sure if you mean start of 2016 or end of 2016. If the former, disagree: was always worth loading up for four in a row, and de-prioritize the cost down the road. If the latter, yep, agree with you.

Definitely the latter.

The impending 2018 'superdraft' is what really muddied the waters for some, myself included.

We were very lucky to end up with Kosi in the end.

The years in which we were devoid of early round draft picks we absolutely nailed the later round picks thankfully. Also nailed some of the bits and pieces trades like Impey and Scrimshaw. Seemingly it was the FA picks and big name trades that we didn't cover ourselves in glory so much.

I am led to wonder how influential Mark McKenzie may have been in draft decision making pre-2018 when he took over the recruitment manager gig. He has been at the club in recruitment for some time and I am not saying Wrighty deserves zero praise for any correct decisions - however McKenzie has been hitting his strides with the draft picks, starting with Kosi in his first year in charge.

It's the Collins/Mitchell/McKenzie brains trust that has me more exciting than anything. Bramble and Newc were as good as having two additional first round picks so we can thank Collins for those. I am not usually prone to optimism - but the thought of those 3 in charge of talent identification and development has me quite bullish.

 

[Pipe Hitter]

The impending 2018 'superdraft' is what really muddied the waters for some, myself included.

We were very lucky to end up with Kosi in the end.

Plus Scrimshaw via a trade so not all doom and gloom. The point does stand we overestimated our squad and burnt a lot of trade capital. To be fair most supporters were on board with our strategy at the time (myself included). The best part of the story is we have 2019/20/21 in the rear view mirror and hopefully a brighter future ahead.

 

[MrPremiership]

If Sam fails, i think it will be due to a breakdown with the playing group.

I'm sure he is clever enough to evolve and grow as a leader, but the only weakness I can think of is not being able to communicate well with the group, or going to hard.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

If Sam fails, i think it will be due to a breakdown with the playing group.

I'm sure he is clever enough to evolve and grow as a leader, but the only weakness I can think of is not being able to communicate well with the group, or going to hard.

Fairly sure the Box Hill players were big wraps on Sam as a coach and the West Coast players definitely were. I get the feeling that his communication won't be as much of an issue as people feel it could be.

 

[Mojo]

Fairly sure the Box Hill players were big wraps on Sam as a coach and the West Coast players definitely were. I get the feeling that his communication won't be as much of an issue as people feel it could be.

It's certainly a skill everyone develops as they get older. Sam will be no different.

Did you imagine the Scott twins becoming AFL coaches while they were playing?

 

[KermitJagger]

I think there were actually a couple who were calling for the rebuild in 2017/18, so they get bragging rights here. I was in the let's top up camp and believed as strongly in trading in talent as opposed to taking the punt on the draft - so I 100% got it wrong also. That is just my point though - I am allowed to be wrong because I dictate zero terms at the HFC.

To bring this into the topic at hand - I already see runs on the board for McKenzie and Collins. The brains trust already around Mitchell I am excited about - just as I am excited about Sam himself at the reins. I think the list is in better shape to move forward than it has been in a long time, we are now one of the youngest sides in the competition. The rest is up to Sam - let's see if his footy IQ translates into the magnet moving part of the game.

I don't think you can necessarily say you or anyone else "got it wrong" calling for a top-up. You can say that it didn't work, but the fact remains you can do pretty much everything right and still fail. It's a competition of 18 teams with one winner a year.

If everything that doesn't result in a premiership is the wrong decision, then rebuilding through the draft has gotten a hell of a lot more wrong in its time than rebuilding or topping up through trade.

 

[tommyk72]

I don't think you can necessarily say you or anyone else "got it wrong" calling for a top-up. You can say that it didn't work, but the fact remains you can do pretty much everything right and still fail. It's a competition of 18 teams with one winner a year.

If everything that doesn't result in a premiership is the wrong decision, then rebuilding through the draft has gotten a hell of a lot more wrong in its time than rebuilding or topping up through trade.

Time to start the "What does success look like for Sam Mitchell" thread?