News Scottie Pippen attending the 2023 AFL Grand Final

[naysayer]

In what way? By showing him bullying and humiliating (at length) anyone and everyone from a long-forgotten reserve (Scott Burrell) to the General Manager (Jerry Krause)?

They could have made it all about Make A Wish visits and Jordan the family man, but they didn't. It was Jordan, warts and all. And as far as basketball documentaries go, in the view of critics, it's a whisker behind Hoop Dreams. So yes, a masterpiece.

It was supposed to be about the team...

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

It was supposed to be about the team...

So your problem with it was that Jordan was hogging the attention in the documentary, when they should have given equal time to Jordan, Longley, Randy Brown and Jason Caffey? OK mate.

Jordan's the drawcard and any production company would have made the lion's share of the doco series about him: get as much of Jordan's perspective as he'd give. Jordan's the reason guys like Isiah Thomas got involved to give his perspective on the Bulls/Pistons rivalry and his own relationship with Jordan. Isn't that of more value for the documentary than tracking down Longley to get a couple of quotes that would probably be basically the same as what a number of other Bulls would say?

I still found that there was plenty of time left over to delve into many of the other interesting character that made up the 1997-98 Bulls.

 

[Osho]

Is he that little freckly bloke from the Milky Bar ads? Good for him.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Masterpiece is a stretch, a massive one.
It was a entertainment piece that was controlled by MJ, and his company had the final say over the final edit that aired.
Not really a documentary like they stated it was, more a fluff piece to laud over MJ.

And...? Anyone who watched it would find it hard to argue that Jordan was avoiding showing moments that made him look bad. They showed him being a complete prick countless times.

Would have thought it was pretty hard to argue with this, but there you go.

The Last Dance (miniseries) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

On review aggregator Rotten Tomatoes, the series holds an approval rating of 97% based on 62 reviews, with an average rating of 8.85/10. The website's critics consensus reads: "A compelling and comprehensive portrait of one of basketball's great teams, The Last Dance's blend of archival footage and candid interviews confirms there's nobody quite like Mike or the team he led to victory."[20] Metacritic, which uses a weighted average, assigned the series a score of 91 out of 100 based on 12 critics, indicating "universal acclaim".
[/quote]

 

[RichLeMonde]

In what way? By showing him bullying and humiliating (at length) anyone and everyone from a long-forgotten reserve (Scott Burrell) to the General Manager (Jerry Krause)?

They could have made it all about Make A Wish visits and Jordan the family man, but they didn't. It was Jordan, warts and all. And as far as basketball documentaries go, in the view of critics, it's a whisker behind Hoop Dreams. So yes, a masterpiece.

Lol, no.

I'll give you just one example. The Bulls are knocked out by the Magic in 1995. Jordan carefully crafts a narrative, endorsed by his personal trainer - who is a paid employee of Jordan - that the reason for this is that Jordan's body was too conditioned to baseball. No mention of the fact that without Rodman in the team in 1995, they simply weren't good enough to beat Shaq, Penny and co. Jordan uses the documentary to try and convince the audience that a slightly different weights program, rather than the lack of one of the top 50-75 players of all time in Rodman in 1995, was the reason the Bulls didn't 4-peat.

A serious documentary is not a mouth-piece for the propaganda of its central character.

Please don't compare it to Hoop Dreams.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Lol, no.

I'll give you just one example. The Bulls are knocked out by the Magic in 1995. Jordan carefully crafts a narrative, endorsed by his personal trainer - who is a paid employee of Jordan - that the reason for this is that Jordan's body was too conditioned to baseball. No mention of the fact that without Rodman in the team in 1995, they simply weren't good enough to beat Shaq, Penny and co. Jordan uses the documentary to try and convince the audience that a slightly different weights program, rather than the lack of one of the top 50-75 players of all time in Rodman in 1995, was the reason the Bulls didn't 4-peat.

A serious documentary is not a mouth-piece for the propaganda of its central character.

Please don't compare it to Hoop Dreams.

Well, sure. There's things I don't agree with. I'm sure there's people who featured in Hoops Dreams who aren't thrilled with how they were portrayed, or who don't agree with how things were presented. Maybe Arthur and William's opinions at times (particularly the former) as high school kids weren't grounded in reality. That's what happens with documentaries.

One other example that comes to mind that I strongly disagree with was Jordan's shock that Craig Ehlo was guarding him for The Shot in the 1989 playoffs and that (his good friend) Ron Harper would have been the better defensive match-up for the Cavs to put on Jordan. Ehlo was right there, with a hand in his face: good defence, better offence as they say. Whatever MJ, you're entitled to your opinion, I guess.

I don't even remember the part you're talking about. The hole at power forward post-Horace Grant, pre-Dennis Rodman was of course the Bulls' Achilles heel that season, even before Jordan returned. But similarly, Jordan was clearly not quite at the level of his six championship seasons in that abbreviated year and he's backed up by the fact that he went right back to being the default best player in the league straight after having a preseason to get back. And then the Bulls plus Rodman and Jordan with a full season under his belt swept the same Magic team in 1996.

The 1995 series went to six games and the Magic had zero history of previous playoff experience or success. Orlando went to seven games against a pretty "meh" Pacers team in the Conference Finals and were then swept by Houston, who had recently discarded their long-time power forward (Otis Thorpe), leaving an enormous hole and no recognised rebounder (like Chicago) at that position, heading into the playoffs.

With 1993 Jordan or 1996 Jordan, would they find a way to pinch that series in 1995? I wouldn’t have bet on it, but given what Jordan did in 1996 and what the Bulls did to the Magic in 1996, he's entitled to his opinion. If those "un-Jordan like" crunch time turnovers in game 1 hadn't happened, who knows?

 

[Cmarsh]

Well I guess we can look forward to ch7 showing copious amounts of him sitting in the crowd, looking bewildered.

I just hope a big on field play isn't missed while 7 laud over him with their cameras.

 

[Mootsy]

what about horace grant?

 

[HarryBeef]

I can understand Longley being disappointed, but let's be realistic, no-one outside Australia noticed or cared about the lack of Longley and the series was a masterpiece. I have respect for him as the best ever, but I'm no Jordan fanboi either.

Masterpiece?

 

[HairyO]

Well I guess we can look forward to ch7 showing copious amounts of him sitting in the crowd, looking bewildered.

I just hope a big on field play isn't missed while 7 laud over him with their cameras.

Or he will pop up in betting ads.

 

[Kramer1]

Weird get. Someone with oversight of the AFL marketing budget is a Bulls fan.

 

[RichLeMonde]

Well, sure. There's things I don't agree with. I'm sure there's people who featured in Hoops Dreams who aren't thrilled with how they were portrayed, or who don't agree with how things were presented. Maybe Arthur and William's opinions at times (particularly the former) as high school kids weren't grounded in reality. That's what happens with documentaries.

One other example that comes to mind that I strongly disagree with was Jordan's shock that Craig Ehlo was guarding him for The Shot in the 1989 playoffs and that (his good friend) Ron Harper would have been the better defensive match-up for the Cavs to put on Jordan. Ehlo was right there, with a hand in his face: good defence, better offence as they say. Whatever MJ, you're entitled to your opinion, I guess.

I don't even remember the part you're talking about. The hole at power forward post-Horace Grant, pre-Dennis Rodman was of course the Bulls' Achilles heel that season, even before Jordan returned. But similarly, Jordan was clearly not quite at the level of his six championship seasons in that abbreviated year and he's backed up by the fact that he went right back to being the default best player in the league straight after having a preseason to get back. And then the Bulls plus Rodman and Jordan with a full season under his belt swept the same Magic team in 1996.

The 1995 series went to six games and the Magic had zero history of previous playoff experience or success. Orlando went to seven games against a pretty "meh" Pacers team in the Conference Finals and were then swept by Houston, who had recently discarded their long-time power forward (Otis Thorpe), leaving an enormous hole and no recognised rebounder (like Chicago) at that position, heading into the playoffs.

With 1993 Jordan or 1996 Jordan, would they find a way to pinch that series in 1995? I wouldn’t have bet on it, but given what Jordan did in 1996 and what the Bulls did to the Magic in 1996, he's entitled to his opinion. If those "un-Jordan like" crunch time turnovers in game 1 hadn't happened, who knows?

The point is not to determine or argue about what is the ‘real’ reason for the Bulls getting knocked out in 1995. The point is that a documentary shouldn’t privilege the perspective of its central protagonist, and take their explanations of why things happened as authoritative. The whole documentary, which was produced by Jordan’s company, was implicitly focalised to his perspective, and presented his preferred narrative as fact. It included him being a prick to Jerry Krause only because Jordan was happy for that to be included. Anything he didn’t want included didn’t make it in. It was extremely well crafted propaganda - that’s why so many people who were close to those events (like Pippen and Grant) absolutely hate the Last Dance

 

[Borussia Teeth]

Well, sure. There's things I don't agree with. I'm sure there's people who featured in Hoops Dreams who aren't thrilled with how they were portrayed, or who don't agree with how things were presented. Maybe Arthur and William's opinions at times (particularly the former) as high school kids weren't grounded in reality. That's what happens with documentaries.

One other example that comes to mind that I strongly disagree with was Jordan's shock that Craig Ehlo was guarding him for The Shot in the 1989 playoffs and that (his good friend) Ron Harper would have been the better defensive match-up for the Cavs to put on Jordan. Ehlo was right there, with a hand in his face: good defence, better offence as they say. Whatever MJ, you're entitled to your opinion, I guess.

I don't even remember the part you're talking about. The hole at power forward post-Horace Grant, pre-Dennis Rodman was of course the Bulls' Achilles heel that season, even before Jordan returned. But similarly, Jordan was clearly not quite at the level of his six championship seasons in that abbreviated year and he's backed up by the fact that he went right back to being the default best player in the league straight after having a preseason to get back. And then the Bulls plus Rodman and Jordan with a full season under his belt swept the same Magic team in 1996.

The 1995 series went to six games and the Magic had zero history of previous playoff experience or success. Orlando went to seven games against a pretty "meh" Pacers team in the Conference Finals and were then swept by Houston, who had recently discarded their long-time power forward (Otis Thorpe), leaving an enormous hole and no recognised rebounder (like Chicago) at that position, heading into the playoffs.

With 1993 Jordan or 1996 Jordan, would they find a way to pinch that series in 1995? I wouldn’t have bet on it, but given what Jordan did in 1996 and what the Bulls did to the Magic in 1996, he's entitled to his opinion. If those "un-Jordan like" crunch time turnovers in game 1 hadn't happened, who knows?

Don’t forget Dickey Simpkins… he could’ve filled that hole.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

The point is not to determine or argue about what is the ‘real’ reason for the Bulls getting knocked out in 1995. The point is that a documentary shouldn’t privilege the perspective of its central protagonist, and take their explanations of why things happened as authoritative. The whole documentary, which was produced by Jordan’s company, was implicitly focalised to his perspective, and presented his preferred narrative as fact. It included him being a prick to Jerry Krause only because Jordan was happy for that to be included. Anything he didn’t want included didn’t make it in. It was extremely well crafted propaganda - that’s why so many people who were close to those events (like Pippen and Grant) absolutely hate the Last Dance

For anyone who's read The Jordan Rules, it would come as no surprise that Jordan has long suspected Horace Grant of providing much of Sam Smith's material. As for Pippen, much of Jordan's criticism of him is justified (in my opinion and which I've held for decades) and beyond that - I'd argue that it's a more difficult path for Jordan to be as critical of Pippen as he was, easier to be kumbaya, buddy/buddy surely? What does he gain from doing it, 20-30 years later?

Sure, they could have gone with an outsider to put the doco series together, so they could say it was independent. Then they would have got 5% of the access to Jordan that The Last Dance got (if they were lucky) and so they would have just been telling the story from the perspective whoever from the team would give them the time of day. It'd just become the Bill Wennington story, instead of the Michael Jordan story.

In terms of being able to say it's a more impartial product, well yes, it's conceivable that could be achieved (though I have my doubts). In terms of actually being a better documentary by taking away hours of interviews with Michael Jordan, yeah sorry... wouldn't happen.

 

[RichLeMonde]

In terms of being able to say it's a more impartial product, well yes, it's conceivable that could be achieved (though I have my doubts).

This is my main gripe

In terms of actually being a better documentary by taking away hours of interviews with Michael Jordan, yeah sorry... wouldn't happen.

I’m sure you’re right to say Jordan wouldn’t have given hours of interviews unless he had some creative control, and I’m sure you’re right to say that a doco with hardly any access to Jordan amd his endless “I took that personally”-ies would have been less entertaining.

But the way it was made, with the protagonist having control over the narrative, that cannot be a masterpiece in the serious documentary genre. It’s a masterpiece of Netflix-era binge entertainment, which is not the same thing.

 

[RAPPA]

Maybe they can get Pippen and our greatest basketball exponent, Scott Pendlebury

10

Scott Pendlebury

Age

36

Ht

191cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

26.5

5star

K

13.2

5star

HB

13.3

5star

M

4.1

4star

T

4.9

5star

CL

4.9

5star

D

25.1

5star

K

12.3

5star

HB

12.9

5star

M

3.4

3star

T

2.3

3star

CL

3.6

4star

D

12.4

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

4.8

4star

M

5.8

5star

T

2.6

4star

, to play 1 v 1

 

[RichLeMonde]

Maybe they can get Pippen and our greatest basketball exponent, Scott Pendlebury, to play 1 v 1

Cmon mate, wouldn’t be fair. At one point one of them was the best player in the world after Hakeem Olajuwon.. and the other one was Scottie Pippen

 

[naysayer]

So your problem with it was that Jordan was hogging the attention in the documentary, when they should have given equal time to Jordan, Longley, Randy Brown and Jason Caffey? OK mate.

You made up something I didn't say, then dismissed it. I hope you enjoyed that digression, hopefully now we can get back to what I actually said.

It was supposed to be about the team. Nobody would suggest that Jordan and Longley were equally important to the team's success. But Longley was hardly a fringe player, he was the starting centre. The producers claimed they didn't include him because they didn't have enough money in their budget to go to Australia for the interview. That's the most laughably pissweak excuse I've ever heard in my life. I'm sure Luc has access to a phone. The fact is that this wasn't a documentary about the team, it was about MJ, and Longley didn't add to the story.

I mean, just imagine if they eventually made a documentary about the Cats 2022 season that doesn't mention Zach Tuohy or Marc Blicavs. If that documentary was produced by Patrick Dangerfield you'd be very critical.

 

[Billy ray]

Wow. I thought this was a bumped thread from 1993

 

[Percel]

Would be great if they got that guy Lambeer from the Pistons who used to headbutt Bird

Parish nailed him good

 

[killtaker1993]

Can we get Charles Barkley and Shaq to do their 'I love those big ol' women in San Antonio' routine

 

[Percel]

what about horace grant?

Mason Cox likes this

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Can we just note that there is actually no news anywhere that Scottie Pippen is attending the AFL Grand Final. OP cited an article that actually doesn’t say that. Not sure where he got it from. He’ll be in the country.

 

[kickazz]

Those of you with kids playing basketball wondering why it is so expensive.....

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Always thought The Last Dance docu was motivated by Michael Jordan getting rustled by LeBron James and his hype and reminding the world who the true GOAT of basketball is/was.