Analysis Selection Integrity

[sosos]

Okay, so how do we know they are playing favourites, and it’s not just the team that they think has the best chance of winning the game?

I didn't say they were, was just trying to define it as requested.

 

[JJBagger]

I didn't say they were, was just trying to define it as requested.

fair point. Wasn’t directed at you specifically. I just assumed that’s why there’s a thread about it

 

[sosos]

fair point. Wasn’t directed at you specifically. I just assumed that’s why there’s a thread about it

All good and it's good to define these things.

And to actually answer your question, we have no way of knowing if they are playing favourites, other than our suspicions. A bit of evidence, added to our hunches makes for an interesting discussion point.

I tend to think that they honestly believe that player or players, that might be in that category, are their best option in the role they're selected for.

 

[I bleed Blue]

Any player on our list, apart from the irishmen, is a better selection than Frances Evans.

No where near an AFL footballer.

Looks so out of place out there.

 

[sosos]

Your first question, I missed who really decides what selection integrity means.

It's the management of the selection committee.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

My first question is, does anyone know exactly who the committee is comprised of?

Whoever has been doing it needs to have a spell for a while.

 

[BlueTongue]

How Fogarty's spot is not designated to a young player or an experiment is beyond me. He's a VFL level player, always has been. Only thing he does is bluff people he is a pressure forward because he gets high tackle numbers, realistically this is due to being second to the ball consistently. Has not kicked a goal in 3 games and most likely will make it 4. Hardly gets it and kicks atrociously. I just don't get it with his consistent selection, never have.

Would much rather Boyd be trialled in this role. He can run, is a good kick as opposed to a terrible kick. Competes and tackles and defends. I just don't get our coaches' lack of ability to think.

At least Docherty has been a top level AFL footballer.

100%. He 'has a crack' as a defensive forward, but he offers nothing on the scoreboard.
He is holding out someone who may be able to add an extra 2-3 goals per week. He's not going to get better, but we could be getting games into someone that will be better. Should be depth only.

 

[JJBagger]

100%. He 'has a crack' as a defensive forward, but he offers nothing on the scoreboard.
He is holding out someone who may be able to add an extra 2-3 goals per week. He's not going to get better, but we could be getting games into someone that will be better. Should be depth only.

He was top 5 in the league for goal assists per game. That's not "offering nothing on the scoreboard"

 

[Wickzki]

He is holding out someone who may be able to add an extra 2-3 goals per week.

Trust me if we had any forward (other than Charlie and H) who could add an extra 2-3 goals per week there'd be half a dozen spots open up for them quick smart.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

There's 2 issues. Depth and selection.

Dumping Carroll, Kennedy, Owies, etc. has hurt our depth quite a bit so the selectors have fewer options (in their view).

But selection is also way off. We never seem to drop established players. Hewett last year one of the few exceptions.

But this year Doc, Haynes, Ollie, etc. will keep getting games no matter how bad their form gets. Maybe Billy or Matt Carroll would be better options? We don't know because they can't get a game.

Moir, White are in this week but why Evans was included last week ahead of them is a mystery to all.

 

[BlueTongue]

He was top 5 in the league for goal assists per game. That's not "offering nothing on the scoreboard"

Maybe the 'Goal Assists' numbers are inflated because he can't kick them, or won't risk trying to kick them himself.
So being a defensive pressure forward who doesn't score but does well with goal assists is good enough in finals for you?

 

[JJBagger]

Maybe the 'Goal Assists' numbers are inflated because he can't kick them, or won't risk trying to kick them himself.
So being a defensive pressure forward who doesn't score but does well with goal assists is good enough in finals for you?

Not every forward you have is gonna kick over a goal a game. At least he makes up for it by being a team player and setting up teammates. Isn't that what you want?

 

[BlueTongue]

Not every forward you have is gonna kick over a goal a game. At least he makes up for it by being a team player and setting up teammates. Isn't that what you want?

I do like Fog. He does have a crack. But he's done the same thing for the last 2 years and is a very limited player. We are not going forward with him in the side but, alas, it would appear we don't have any other options.

 

[Wickzki]

Moir, White are in this week but why Evans was included last week ahead of them is a mystery to all.

Honestly, with Frank, it comes down to work ethic. It's what has gotten him to all three clubs. A willingness to work as hard as possible, adhere to the coaching staff's instructions, etc. are often the difference in getting a list spot followed by a spot in the 22 on match day and not.

It's a shame that his physical traits - and skill level - aren't at the same level. Few players work as hard with so little.

 

[Wickzki]

I do like Fog. He does have a crack. But he's done the same thing for the last 2 years and is a very limited player. We are not going forward with him in the side but, alas, it would appear we don't have any other options.

Find us another half forward willing to slog it out, possesses endurance, but is more skilled. That's a dilemma for this side. Until we can he ticks enough boxes that make him earn selection regardless of his limitations.

In an ideal world, he and Cottrell are pushing hard at training for selection with more talented players keeping them out.

 

[BlueTongue]

Find us another half forward willing to slog it out, possesses endurance, but is more skilled. That's a dilemma for this side. Until we can he ticks enough boxes that make him earn selection regardless of his limitations.

In an ideal world, he and Cottrell are pushing hard at training for selection with more talented players keeping them out.

Let's hope Will White makes it hard for the others

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Just my opinion and I am sure it will be unpopular but I cannot stand the phrase "selection integrity" on this board.
It just becomes a catch-all for people to use when the players they want to see aren't in the seniors without much justification.

When it was being used for Murph as he was carried through the end of his career it was justified. Especially in a rebuilding position where it is worth looking at or getting games into kids.

Throughout the Voss/Russell tenure we were pushing for finals. The "get games into kids" or looking at them without much evidence goes out the window.
We were also ravaged by injuries with 10+ consistently on the unavailable list so I think we've been handcuffed at the selection table.

Think it is very premature to discuss so early in the season when our 2s have only played one official game.
Our seemingly consensus best player in that game was Boyd and he was elevated the next week, albeit as sub.

I think there are plenty of players who are deserving of being dropped (Docherty, McGovern, Haynes, Evans, Fogarty etc.) but I also don't think there are players missing selection worthy of being outraged about either.

Looks like we will get a look at White and Moir tomorrow night and hopefully they go well.
Let's hope the 2s boys can start putting some pressure on our underperforming 1s boys now the fixture properly starts for them.

Selection integrity doesn't refer to this season alone.

We debuted 1 player for most of last year, before we debuted 2 more by necessity as injuries took hold in the last 2 rounds.

We are clearly one of the more conservative teams when it comes to giving youngsters a taste of senior footy.

The twos are there to apply pressure to the ones so nobody becomes comfortable with their automatic selection.

While I am glad we are debuting another player this week, and I know that Cottrell is listed as injured, and Evans hasn't been great, I'm not sure why Boyd is the one dropped after his first game of the season, coming on as a sub.

Beyond Hewett and Kemp last year, I'm not sure we want to rattle the cages of several senior players who are hopelessly out of form right now and have played in most of the losses since mid last season.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

One question - who decides what selection integrity is? And what is the definition?

What it is seems clear. When out of form players are sent back to the VFL to find form, whilst others with potential are given a chance to show something in the seniors.

How it is applied, and when it should be applied .... well that's the reason we have a discussion forum.

I'm unsure why a few are objecting to the words selection integrity, or a discussion about it.

I equate this to the Australian Cricket team. It's bloody hard to get dropped from, and we often see players make the most of their opportunity when they get a chance, but have to wait until they are 30 to do so.

My query in starting the thread is why we have so many players who don't get a chance compared to other teams. We seem like a very conservative team selection wise, even after a string of poor results.

I know there will be posters sweating on White or Moir not having an impact tomorrow night, but that hardly absolves the form of certain senior players who have had 3 chances this year to find their form and failed. Two of those players are absolute favourites of mine, but I'm club first.

 

[btdg]

I don't really understand what this thread is supposed to be about.

There seems to be some general consensus that players who aren't at their best in the seniors 'deserve' to be dropped. Docherty and McGovern the big two that keep getting repeated. To me, this just feels like wanting to scapegoat someone for the team losing.

Right now, there isn't a replacement for either in the reserves. There just isn't. There are tiers of players in footy; and what we have in the reserves is just bottom tier of AFL level - untested, low draft picks, who haven't even had good performances at VFL level to show improvement (because the VFL hasn't properly started yet).

We don't even really have a suitable medium defender to replace McGovern (who is playing as a mobile third tall/medium player). Playing any replacement is going to make the team worse, which means more losses, which means more scapegoats need to be found.

With Docherty, it's tricky because he is a heart and soul player who has two main issues. The first is confidence and fitness recovering from a third knee injury and two bouts of cancer. He's lost his toughness, quickness... still reads the game ok and racks up disposals, but he isn't the same player. The second issue is he seems utterly positionless. We had him earmarked as the sub, and that seems his best role - he's not a great inside mid, or half back, or wing, or forward at this point, but he can play all of them in the 4th quarter against tired opposition. Maybe he gets dropped, but for who?

A huge issue we have with our lack of depth this year is just getting the balacne right between really young guys and form/confidence. Collingwood are playing tomorrow night with literally zero young players. Nick Daicos (at 22) is the youngest, and he is probably the best player in the competition. Ned Long is also 22 and will be their sub. Then its McCreery and Hill who are 24 and the rest are 25+

We are already suiting up Moir (20, has never played a full game), White (21, debut), Lord (20, one full game), Cowan (20, 27 career games), Hollands (21, 44 games) and Motlop (21, 43 games). We'll have the 6 youngest players on the ground, 3 of whom are essentially debutants, in front of 100,000 people.

Aside from Boyd (who came back from injury, played longer than expected, and is now sitting out a game on a 6 day break so presumably on injury rest/light duties), the ONLY available player over 23 is Evans, a rookie listed player who is getting dropped.

So what exactly are we wanting in terms of selection integrity? We drop Docherty and McGovern and play two more debutants? I assume we are hoping to throw Binns onto Sidebottom/Daicos on the wing (instead of Doch) and chuck a rookie-listed Matt Carroll into defence onto Jamie Elliott or Lachie Schultz?

Sorry, but that's just not a competitive team. TBH, we're barely hanging in there with the team selected, but it is still teh best team we can pick this week.

About the only argument that makes sense is that perhaps the senior players will find form in the reserves and bounce back a week later. In that case, you are basically asking us to punt a game vs Collingwood in front of 90,000 people, in the hope that it'll help us the following week when McGovern/Docherty come back... I dunno, I don't think that holds up

Or alternatively, is the idea to frighten senior players into performing? Problem is, it's clearly going to make the team worse... again, not sure that message holds up well either.

Ultimately, I think this is all part of the process of wrapping our heads around an undeniable fact - we don't have a good team this year. We're in a mini reset (not rebuild), our list is paper thin, we have cut too deeply the reserves and backup guys, and some of the older blokes (that we overpaid) have hit a bit of a wall in what they can provide. We have 16 or 17 young blokes on the list, most of whom are low draft picks and who will need to be brought along slowly. If luck doesn't go our way, we're a bottom 4 team, and so far luck hasn't (with 2x ACL injuries and 2-3 blokes missing for 'personal' reasons, we're not off to a ripping start)

 

[Faz 2000]

Ultimately, I think this is all part of the process of wrapping our heads around an undeniable fact - we don't have a good team this year. We're in a mini reset (not rebuild), our list is paper thin, we have cut too deeply the reserves and backup guys, and some of the older blokes (that we overpaid) have hit a bit of a wall in what they can provide. We have 16 or 17 young blokes on the list, most of whom are low draft picks and who will need to be brought along slowly. If luck doesn't go our way, we're a bottom 4 team, and so far luck hasn't (with 2x ACL injuries and 2-3 blokes missing for 'personal' reasons, we're not off to a ripping start)

I think you might be right. God it hurts.

 

[Coops93]

Maybe the 'Goal Assists' numbers are inflated because he can't kick them, or won't risk trying to kick them himself.
So being a defensive pressure forward who doesn't score but does well with goal assists is good enough in finals for you?

Geelong and Gryan Miers comes to mind.

Miers is a lot better than Fog fwiw, just answering the point on whether a high goal assist player that's not a consistent scoreboard threat is good enough for finals.

 

[Blue Pulse]

Selection Integrity under Voss - Maybe the new title?

I have read the title, not as referring to just this season as the span of 3 rounds is too small to make a judgement, but if you look back over the Voss era, there have been some bewildering decisions made.

Round 1, the whole side, apart from about 3 players could have been dropped on a performance basis, some on here where calling for wholesale changes, this was never going to happen. Mark it down as an anomaly and back the guys to regain some respect.

I don't like the selection of under done players as sub, this to me is bewildering, as an early injury upsets the balance of the side. Boyd, last week as sub and now out this week, tells me he is either injured or pulled up sore. If omitted, he must play VFL. Williams, selected this week, must play 4 qtrs, as we just cannot have a player of his calibre going down early in the game. I understand last week was an awkward landing and these things happen, but this week, selected, there are no excuses.

 

[BlueTongue]

Geelong and Gryan Miers comes to mind.

Miers is a lot better than Fog fwiw, just answering the point on whether a high goal assist player that's not a consistent scoreboard threat is good enough for finals.

Miers does kick a lot more though, besides, it's fine to have a 'Fog type' in a side that can kick a decent score, but not in a disfunctional Cluster**** like ours.

 

[The Coach]

I am not sure that Fogs is a big issue when it comes to selection integrity.
I cannot even say I have followed him closely enough
I imagine he contributes more tackling pressure while Miers contributes more goal assists
Last year Miers averaged 0.84 gls/game while Fog averaged 0.6 gls/game

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I don't really understand what this thread is supposed to be about.

I've tried to explain it a couple of times.

Yes, there will be comments about one aspect of the discussion that you disagree with, but your disagreement is part of what the thread is supposed to be about. A discussion.

As in my OP, if we don't have players in the VFL worthy of a spot, and we have the equal most amount of players yet to debut, then we can simply surmise that the recruitment and development is not good enough.

There is no singular line of thinking intended here, and no limits on theories or opinions that can be given.

One thing I'd question though, is the notion that we need a like player to replace anybody we drop. With the McGovern example, we already have a like player in the team in Haynes. With Weitering, Silvagni, Young, McGovern, Haynes, a medium defender in Cowan, and the two small defenders we play, we are well served for taller options.