Singleton sacks Waterhouse

[nobbyiscool]

The minor issues, -are Gai's failure to notify the stewards of More Joyous' problem in the lead-up to the race,- and the betting patterns on the race. The gambling issue will only be significant if there are unusual betting patterns, and at this stage, that doesn't appear to be the case.

I don't think Gai's failure to notify stewards is going to be considered a minor issue - the Chief Steward was apparently fuming about it.

The betting patterns weren't outrageous, but they were strange. I got ATH at $3.50 about 30 minutes before the race, with MJ at $2.60. 20 minutes later they had reversed, before MJ came back into about $3. She was available at $3.60 10 minutes before the race though.

 

[balmainforever]

This issue has now been pushed back to next Monday.

 

[JuddsABlue]

A few ppl in this thread saying they are shocked Tom has a bookies licence

Why is that?

Secondary question, how hard is it to get a bookies licence?

Is it just the conflict of interest with mummy and his old mans checkered history or is there something more?

 

[yaco55]

I don't think Gai's failure to notify stewards is going to be considered a minor issue - the Chief Steward was apparently fuming about it.

The betting patterns weren't outrageous, but they were strange. I got ATH at $3.50 about 30 minutes before the race, with MJ at $2.60. 20 minutes later they had reversed, before MJ came back into about $3. She was available at $3.60 10 minutes before the race though.

Gai's failure to notify the Stewards is a minor issue - Horses often have setbacks but don't notify stewards - Even though they should.

Stewards will view betting patterns which they do for every race - And stewards have in the past interviewed connections if a horse blows like the north wind and performs poorly. AFAIK stewards felt nothing untoward happened.

Owners take horses off trainers every day - But unfortunately in this case, Singleton decided to air his feelings on National Television. Singleton should have spoken to the stewards if he had any concerns. And I suspect that Singleton will face a ban if he doesn't divulge names.

Its a bad day for racing.

 

[Ghostwriter]

I'm not a punting person but I follow the horses a little bit, a couple things, there was a letter in the Herald Sun about a month ago where the premise was what if Gai has an injured horse and tells Tom but he doesn't adjust the odds, the punters are unaware of injured horse and bet on it as it's a favourite, is this a conflict of interest?
Another thing there was an article in the AGE or SMH on sunday and it states that Gai rang Tom and asked 'who did you speak to about MJ, he said he spoke to no-one', the call apparently lasted 15 seconds, is this an example of Gai giving Tom inside info on here horses, injured or not?

 

[InspectorRex]

are we all honestly surprised by tom's behaviour? if anyone is a member of his site they/we should know by now how shady his tactics are and that alone indicates how he behaves and his mindset. Turns out rejecting your bets then moving the odds etc was just the tip of the iceburg
Just look at his ugly mug and you can tell he is a shifty prick

 

[yaco55]

I'm not a punting person but I follow the horses a little bit, a couple things, there was a letter in the Herald Sun about a month ago where the premise was what if Gai has an injured horse and tells Tom but he doesn't adjust the odds, the punters are unaware of injured horse and bet on it as it's a favourite, is this a conflict of interest?
Another thing there was an article in the AGE or SMH on sunday and it states that Gai rang Tom and asked 'who did you speak to about MJ, he said he spoke to no-one', the call apparently lasted 15 seconds, is this an example of Gai giving Tom inside info on here horses, injured or not?

Conspiracy theories.

Gai Waterhouse is married to Rob Waterhouse a bookmaker, her Father-in-law is a bookmaker - Gai has been training horses for Singo since 2001 - Suddenly there is a conflict of interest because her son Tom Waterhouse is a bookmaker ( for 4 years ) - So no conflict of interest for the last 12 years. That seems strange. For heavens sake, Singo has employed about 55 trainers, and has had 6 wives. The guy gets bored easily. And relationships break down in racing all the time - How often do owners switch trainers ? How often has a horse been passed fit to raise by a vet - And then runs poorly - It happens all the time.

Maybe you should vent your spleen at John Peatfield who is Singo's private vet who passed More Joyous fit to run, and Leanne Begg who is the Gai Waterhouse vet. and Duncan Grimley who is Singo's racing manager.

 

[Ghostwriter]

You are embarrassing yourself.

Gai Waterhouse is married to Rob Waterhouse a bookmaker, her Father-in-law is a bookmaker - Gai has been training horses for Singo since 2001 - Suddenly there is a conflict of interest because her son Tom Waterhouse is a bookmaker ( for 4 years ) - So no conflict of interest for the last 12 years. That seems strange. For heavens sake, Singo has employed about 55 trainers, and has had 6 wives. The guy gets bored easily. And relationships break down in racing all the time - How often do owners switch trainers ? How often has a horse been passed fit to raise by a vet - And then runs poorly - It happens all the time.

Maybe you should vent your spleen at John Peatfield who is Singo's private vet who passed More Joyous fit to run, and Leanne Begg who is the Gai Waterhouse vet. and Duncan Grimley who is Singo's racing manager.

Wasn't venting my spleen at anyone cheif, just pointed out and interestingly timed letter and an interesting phone call.

 

[yaco55]

Wasn't venting my spleen at anyone cheif, just pointed out and interestingly timed letter and an interesting phone call.

And Andrew Johns has now flip flopped three times about his conversation with Tom Waterhouse. Johns said More Joyous wasn't discussed, then said he backed More Joyous, then he claimed that Waterhouse didn't like More Joyous, All Too Hard and Its A Dundeel. That makes Tom a gret bookie laying All Too Hard.

Seems like 1 + 1 = 111.

 

[ThePeanutGallery]

yaco55, it is clear you have a set against Singleton. So what about his private life, has nothing to do with the issue at hand, which you seem to dismiss as minor.

The fact a favourite in a Group 1 race was needing treatment 2 days before racing is not a minor issue.

The fact that the trainer of a favourite in a Group 1 race did not tell stewards of this most important information is also not a minor issue.

We are not talking about a maiden at Colac here. I think the stewards would not take kindly to the integrity of racing on it's biggest stage being shunned by someone who knows the rules as they are set out.

Less talk of minor issues, and more talk of the major components would be a start.

 

[Selective Retention]

yaco55, it is clear you have a set against Singleton.

No yaco55 must have some link to the Waterhouse's he was sticking up for Tom on a thread on the main board when people were complaining about his non stop advertising.

 

[Stockdale]

yaco55, it is clear you have a set against Singleton. So what about his private life, has nothing to do with the issue at hand, which you seem to dismiss as minor.

The fact a favourite in a Group 1 race was needing treatment 2 days before racing is not a minor issue.

The fact that the trainer of a favourite in a Group 1 race did not tell stewards of this most important information is also not a minor issue.

We are not talking about a maiden at Colac here. I think the stewards would not take kindly to the integrity of racing on it's biggest stage being shunned by someone who knows the rules as they are set out.

Less talk of minor issues, and more talk of the major components would be a start.

lol it is a minor issue. Obviously the stewards cant say this but it happens too often to count

 

[Chism]

Conspiracy theories.

Gai Waterhouse is married to Rob Waterhouse a bookmaker, her Father-in-law is a bookmaker - Gai has been training horses for Singo since 2001 - Suddenly there is a conflict of interest because her son Tom Waterhouse is a bookmaker ( for 4 years ) - So no conflict of interest for the last 12 years. That seems strange. For heavens sake, Singo has employed about 55 trainers, and has had 6 wives. The guy gets bored easily. And relationships break down in racing all the time - How often do owners switch trainers ? How often has a horse been passed fit to raise by a vet - And then runs poorly - It happens all the time.

Maybe you should vent your spleen at John Peatfield who is Singo's private vet who passed More Joyous fit to run, and Leanne Begg who is the Gai Waterhouse vet. and Duncan Grimley who is Singo's racing manager.

How about we just blame everyone else except the Trainer who failed to notify stewards that MJ had heat in her neck and received treatment along with her bookmaker son who apparently knew about it and is alleged to have told others he did not like the horse. How could the trainers son all of a sudden not like the horse over a course and distance she has never been beaten at in her career and run so poorly. Don't bring up the defence that he backed it either as he had to as this supplied his one and only trump card to refute claims that may surface.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven and Singo has every right to be fuming.

Yes relationships break down in racing and Yes horses do not always run to potential and this is life but to dismiss such serious claims as minor like not notifying stewards etc and showing a clear preference for anything Waterhouse one can only assume you are looking at the whole issue with a biased attitude for whatever reasons etc. This is cool and everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want but don't shoot others down if an opinion does not agree with your own.

Time will tell and we will see what happens after the Stewards sort it out.

 

[yaco55]

yaco55, it is clear you have a set against Singleton. So what about his private life, has nothing to do with the issue at hand, which you seem to dismiss as minor.

The fact a favourite in a Group 1 race was needing treatment 2 days before racing is not a minor issue.

The fact that the trainer of a favourite in a Group 1 race did not tell stewards of this most important information is also not a minor issue.

We are not talking about a maiden at Colac here. I think the stewards would not take kindly to the integrity of racing on it's biggest stage being shunned by someone who knows the rules as they are set out.

Less talk of minor issues, and more talk of the major components would be a start.

Do you understand the issues.

Singo's Private Vet, John Peatfield passed More Joyous fit to run on Saturday morning. The vet's inspection was done in front of Singo's Racing Manager, Duncan Grimley. A vet inspection is done the morning every time Singo has a runner.

You are suggesting that

1) Peatfield/Grimley didn't notify Singleton of More Joyous' setback ?
2) Do you think that Peatfield in conjunction with Leanne Begg who is Waterhouse's vet, passed More Joyous fit to run when the horse was lame ?

Horses are fragile creatures and often suffer setbacks and need ongoing treatment. And sometimes horses are passed fit to run by VETS and then perform poorly. Its been happening for over 200 years.

 

[yaco55]

How about we just blame everyone else except the Trainer who failed to notify stewards that MJ had heat in her neck and received treatment along with her bookmaker son who apparently knew about it and is alleged to have told others he did not like the horse. How could the trainers son all of a sudden not like the horse over a course and distance she has never been beaten at in her career and run so poorly. Don't bring up the defence that he backed it either as he had to as this supplied his one and only trump card to refute claims that may surface.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven and Singo has every right to be fuming.

Yes relationships break down in racing and Yes horses do not always run to potential and this is life but to dismiss such serious claims as minor like not notifying stewards etc and showing a clear preference for anything Waterhouse one can only assume you are looking at the whole issue with a biased attitude for whatever reasons etc. This is cool and everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want but don't shoot others down if an opinion does not agree with your own.

Time will tell and we will see what happens after the Stewards sort it out.

Yes - We will find out after the Stewards give their findings.

Most of your post is hearsay and Chinese whispers.

Opinions are better if they have facts that substantiate the argument.

The only fact in your post is that Waterhouse, didn't notify stewards that More Joyous had treatment for heat in her neck, and your re-iteration that relationships break down and horses don't always run to their full potential.

The other proven facts are that More Joyous was treated on Thursday night by vets Begg and Peatfield, then passed fit to run on Saturday morning by the aforementioned Vets,and that Singleton failed to notify stewards pre-race of his concerns about the fitness of More Joyous.

Of course we can choose to beieve Andrew Johns whose story has changed three times since Saturday.

This is like the game we used to play at school. One person tells a story,which is passed around to ten people in a circle, and by the time the tenth person tells the story it's completely different.

 

[Stockdale]

How about we just blame everyone else except the Trainer who failed to notify stewards that MJ had heat in her neck and received treatment along with her bookmaker son who apparently knew about it and is alleged to have told others he did not like the horse. How could the trainers son all of a sudden not like the horse over a course and distance she has never been beaten at in her career and run so poorly. Don't bring up the defence that he backed it either as he had to as this supplied his one and only trump card to refute claims that may surface.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven and Singo has every right to be fuming.

Yes relationships break down in racing and Yes horses do not always run to potential and this is life but to dismiss such serious claims as minor like not notifying stewards etc and showing a clear preference for anything Waterhouse one can only assume you are looking at the whole issue with a biased attitude for whatever reasons etc. This is cool and everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want but don't shoot others down if an opinion does not agree with your own.

Time will tell and we will see what happens after the Stewards sort it out.

This just screams of the people who love to go off half cocked over pieces of information they hear on the news to support their theories. There are very little proven facts in anything you are saying and you're just using a heap of hearsay and claims with no evidence to back up your thoughts

 

[yaco55]

No yaco55 must have some link to the Waterhouse's he was sticking up for Tom on a thread on the main board when people were complaining about his non stop advertising.

What a childish post ?

I don't give two hoots about Tom Waterhouse.

It's the quality of the argument that concerns me - When people post 'want to punch his head', 'he's an idiot' etc,etc, etc. And you would have noticed, that I have done the same, when Caroline Wilson has been attacked on BF, despite her rantings about EFC. Its all about the quality of the argument.

I have posted in this thread because I have a good knowledge of the horse racing industry.

 

[Chism]

Alan Robinson the ex jockey was just interviewed by Today Tonight and had some interesting info to share!

He basically said Tom Waterhouse told Matty Johns that he did not like the horse 2 days before the race which was Thursday sometime after they met up at some sort of function. Matty then told another big punter/mate who is friends with Robinson this info and Robinson informed Singo on race day and he decided not to put his usual Win bet on her.

Singo is still claiming that he was kept in the dark regarding the issue with MJ and hence the reason why he is so upset and the fact that Tom said what he did 2 days prior and MJ ran the way she did is food for thought and she has never been beaten like that ever. Tom has denied everything so far that he told anyone about MJ but it does not look good especially with the way the horse ran. Racing NSW stewards also for the first time ever have directly gone to the telecommunication giants and seized ALL phone records from those involved and usually they ask for them to be supplied from the parties involved but this step to seize them directly speaks for itself and it is being taken very seriously and the fallout will be big.

yaco55 you can blame Vets all you want but things are not adding up and Gai knows her horses better than any Vet and even IF they are passed fit to run by a Vet after an examination there may be more concerns which Vets are not picking up like Gai can as she works the horse and see's everything. " Passed fit to run " is a very broad term.

All this is still alleged right now regarding the Robinson statements until the hearing but interesting reading none the less.

 

[Chism]

This just screams of the people who love to go off half cocked over pieces of information they hear on the news to support their theories. There are very little proven facts in anything you are saying and you're just using a heap of hearsay and claims with no evidence to back up your thoughts

Of course there is no evidence yet or else Stewards would not be holding a hearing etc.

Claims and heresay are all we have right now and we are free to discuss it. Don't go off telling others they support a half cocked theory because the comment they made does not agree with what you believe.

I suppose this whole saga is just a massive coincidence with the best Sydney mare racing over a distance and at a course she had never been beaten at previously then coupled with the whole Tom knew saga and Singo found out etc, MJ throws in a performance like that substantiating all the here say and rumors.

 

[Chism]

Yes - We will find out after the Stewards give their findings.

Yes we will.

Most of your post is hearsay and Chinese whispers.

Well this is all we have to go off currently.

Opinions are better if they have facts that substantiate the argument.

O.k and this is fine but where are your facts regarding the issue and the defending of Waterhouse and the hosing down of all conversations that do not suit the agenda you want to see?

The only fact in your post is that Waterhouse, didn't notify stewards that More Joyous had treatment for heat in her neck, and your re-iteration that relationships break down and horses don't always run to their full potential.

The other proven facts are that More Joyous was treated on Thursday night by vets Begg and Peatfield, then passed fit to run on Saturday morning by the aforementioned Vets,and that Singleton failed to notify stewards pre-race of his concerns about the fitness of More Joyous.

Of course we can choose to beieve Andrew Johns whose story has changed three times since Saturday.

This is like the game we used to play at school. One person tells a story,which is passed around to ten people in a circle, and by the time the tenth person tells the story it's completely different.

Stewards will sort the rest out and everyone can speculate as much as they like and while you claim to have a good knowledge of the horse racing industry many others have to and i also am involved as a racehorse owner and have been for over 10 years. Lets not make it a measuring contest of ones anatomy to solidify an opinion.

 

[nobbyiscool]

All you can do is shake your head in amazement at the moment.

Am I really to believe Andrew Johns' statement that he wasn't talking about MJs fitness - when he only said this after a meeting with his bosses, who presumably like the estimated $62m in sponsorship that TW owes 9?

In spite of what one obvious Waterhouse supporter (who "doesn't give two hoots" about him, but has spent an awful lot of time defending him) on this board says... this stinks like hell. And to draw on another cliche, where there's smoke there's fire - especially in racing.

And yet... we aren't going to get any answers. This will end up being a he said/she said case, and in the end there won't be any repercussions.

The question I'm most interested in - did Gai Waterhouse disclose her concerns to Singletons vet? Because if not, the fact that Singletons vet inspected MJ means nothing. I'm pretty sure that if she had told Singleton's vet, MJ would've been scratched.

I deduce this because Singo hasn't sacked his vet (yet). If the vet knew about heat in the neck, and still let her run the rubbish race that she ran on Saturday - he would've sacked the vet by now as well.

 

[yaco55]

The one thing that we can be sure of is that the NSW stewards will leave no stone uncovered to get to the bottom of the story. Latest media reports say that the phone records of all the main protaginists will be vetted as well as the exhaustive study of betting patterns. And Andrew Johns and Eddie Hayson and maybe even A.G.robinson will be present at the stewards enquiry. And now we read that More Joyous may have been treated with an anti-arthritic drug earlier in the week. Can say there are some interesting characters in this field.

Contrary to a previous poster saying that everything will be swept under the carpet, the NSW enquiry will be open and transparent. Expect severe penalties if anybody is found guilty of breaching the rules of racing, as opposed to the limp wristed penalties that are handed out in Victoria.

I have 100% confidence in Ray Murrihy.

 

[yaco55]

Alan Robinson the ex jockey was just interviewed by Today Tonight and had some interesting info to share!

He basically said Tom Waterhouse told Matty Johns that he did not like the horse 2 days before the race which was Thursday sometime after they met up at some sort of function. Matty then told another big punter/mate who is friends with Robinson this info and Robinson informed Singo on race day and he decided not to put his usual Win bet on her.

Singo is still claiming that he was kept in the dark regarding the issue with MJ and hence the reason why he is so upset and the fact that Tom said what he did 2 days prior and MJ ran the way she did is food for thought and she has never been beaten like that ever. Tom has denied everything so far that he told anyone about MJ but it does not look good especially with the way the horse ran. Racing NSW stewards also for the first time ever have directly gone to the telecommunication giants and seized ALL phone records from those involved and usually they ask for them to be supplied from the parties involved but this step to seize them directly speaks for itself and it is being taken very seriously and the fallout will be big.

yaco55 you can blame Vets all you want but things are not adding up and Gai knows her horses better than any Vet and even IF they are passed fit to run by a Vet after an examination there may be more concerns which Vets are not picking up like Gai can as she works the horse and see's everything. " Passed fit to run " is a very broad term.

All this is still alleged right now regarding the Robinson statements until the hearing but interesting reading none the less.

The Robinson statement actually says that Tom Waterhouse told Andrew Johns at the rugby on Friday night his thoughts on Saturday's meeting. Andrew Johns then told Eddie Hayson who was also at the rugby, who then called A.G.Robinson,who then rung Singo on Saturday morning.

It's still a moving feast at this stage and certain that more will change in the next few days.

But I have 100% confidence in Ray Murrihy who is an outstanding Steward.

I wouldn't have so much confidence if this hearing was held in Victoria.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

How could you possibly turn this into NSW v VIC?

 

[nobbyiscool]

Actually, it's the one thing that Yaco has said in this thread that I really think has a lot of merit - stewards in Victoria tend to prefer not to make a big deal out of anything. I can only imagine they think that banning a Damien Oliver forever and referring the matter to the Federal Police gives the story more air - but by sweeping it under the carpet, people forget about it.

I hope the NSW stewards are that much better than Victoria's - because if this took place in Victoria, we'd never get an answer. In NSW? Well... we'll see I guess.