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So... a guy got beheaded in front of my office today
- Thread starter Malifice
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haha zing! you are a funny dood
MaddAdam
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what is the new US centre called?
_ _ _ _ _ _ Africa Command. let me google
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Africa_Command
i wanna know is there was/wer any psyOps involved in spiking Kony youtube hits for momentum.
if they have CIA at NY Times and WaPo, they are gonna have CIA in Google
_ _ _ _ _ _ Africa Command. let me google
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Africa_Command
i wanna know is there was/wer any psyOps involved in spiking Kony youtube hits for momentum.
if they have CIA at NY Times and WaPo, they are gonna have CIA in Google
This is exactly the kind of mindset that feeds the Jihadi ideology - leading to a South London accented, Nigerian born Muslim convert decapitating an innocent man in broad daylight. In some ways, it could be argued that it is precisely this type of narrow, self-obsessed, Western-centric navel gazing that led directly to the murder taking place.
I know most people, presumably you Daw, sincerely believe this is just a nuanced approach to a horrendous act that requires understanding - but that just makes it even more staggering that you completely miss (or ignore) the wider implications/consequences of giving credence and weight to the "political" grievances of a man who has just cut a strangers head off and dragged the corpse into the middle of the street.
Firstly: The very act itself should rule out any justification. Beheading innocent strangers should be given as much weight as slaughtering teenage students when it comes to asking if it's worth listening to their "motives". Which leads into:
Secondly: Accepting that a murderer's "political grievance" should be taken seriously into account and factored into response, is quite clearly a dangerously stupid precedent to set unless you're absolutely sure the "grievance" is valid, rationally explains the violent act, and can be realistically acted upon by Govt.
Now... and here's the important yet obvious part. Everything the racist murderer Anders Breivik did was motivated by a "political grievance" that could be realistically acted upon by Govt. Did you (or any of us - LouisCk, Malifice etc) rush to explain Breivik's mass murder in the context of the mass immigration he so objected to?
Of course not. A cynic might suggest it was because of who he killed and the nature of his "grievance". But the overwhelming factor was that his "political grievance" NEVER "rationally explained the violent act". Yet, clearly, Norway could easily try and avoid another Breivik by ending Muslim immigration.
Or Stormfront in the UK could use the beheading of white soldiers as a "grievance" to justify murdering random Muslims. And then we'd all have to accept their right to "understanding" and subject ourselves to self-examination and agonising over how we are ultimately responsible for Stormfront because we hadn't listened to the growing tide against blah blah blah... Etc etc...
Because the precedent has been set... By you. By anyone and everyone who can look at an act of such extreme and public violence and want to discuss how "he has a point..."
Thirdly: Because he doesn't have a point. In fact his rants about UK soldiers "killing Muslims" and muslim women having to bear witness to such atrocities are so breathtakingly hypocritical only a Sarf Londoner convert could possibly say it and believe it - because he's never actually lived in a muslim nation at the front line of the "War on Terror".
If he had, he'd know, through experience, that %99 of civilian Muslim casualties this millennium have been at the hands of other Muslims.
And he'd know that the last time "Western Christian" troops slaughtered Muslims out of hand was during the Balkans war in the 90's. And he'd know Tony Blair is a hero in Islamic Albania because he insisted on intervening in Kosovo to save Muslim lives - and he might bother to learn that Blair had absolutely no vested political interest in doing so. But why would he bother to learn that when nobody else gives a shit about it? It suits a whole lot of people to pretend Blair "warred on Muslims" when the indisputable, overwhelming evidence is Blair "warred on behalf" of the most vulnerable and oppressed Muslims.
And he'd know that it was the UK, under Blair, who argued and won support for an International attempt at democratic reconstruction in Afghanistan - as opposed to just using the Northern Alliance to rout the Taliban and Al Qaeda, then leaving the warlords to go at it. It might not have worked in the end, but the intention was demonstrably better than handing Afghanistan over to Northern Alliance war lords and to hell with the consequences.
As was the building of schools - and allowing women to attend them. Except some "muslims" didn't like that. They bombed them; threw acid on them; shot them in the head. There's a whole lot of "commenters" remarking on how Adebolajo apologised to any women who might have to witness his violence. Did anyone consider asking where we think he stood on the issue of shooting young girls who want to go to school?
Or was it more important to make him an avatar of your own political arguments: because drone strikes are shit (they are), and because of Afghanistan (since it wasn't cool) and Iraq (never cool) and since Obama let us down by doing what we wanted and returning to bombing from distance as Foreign Policy - because you disagree with this, it's worth letting Adebolajo represent all Muslims and have grievances all Muslims must share? Even to the extent that it's so reasonable and so pervasive a "grievance" that the only way to "protect ourselves" is to change our foreign policy to fit Adebolajo's...
Of course we don't know exactly what his policy is - and how we should shape ours to avoid other people being forced to behead innocent strangers. But I'm guessing the UK will no longer provide life-saving medical surgery to uppity Pakistani Muslim chicks who like to go to school.
What a win for humanity that will be!
Because now Adebolajo is the arbiter of the "right kind of muslim". He's been given this voice by those who uncritically accept his premise. People who claim empathy with "Muslim people" but who betray the majority by empathising with the very worst of the minority.
Fourthly: Because, whatever one's position on Afghanistan, Iraq; War on Terror; Israel/Palestine; Iran nukes - the accusation that US, UK and Allied action is a "war on Islam" is so absurd, so demonstrably false by deed and outcome; that you have to question the motives of those who still peddle it.
Start with Afghanistan - remove one of the most brutal and reactionary regimes in history. Spend trillions of dollars and thousands of lives trying to allow Afghans to just vote who they want to rule them.
Remembering Kosovo - where UK/US went to war to protect Muslims from Christians... Risking massive fall-out with Russia (and China)
Iraq - the apparent unifying factor. Yet the best possible example of UK/US policy empowering Muslims: and Muslims of both strands of Islam. Before liberation, the Shia Arab majority were suppressed politically, and repressed religiously; while the minority Kurd population was simply oppressed, despite sharing the Sunni faith of the minority Sunni Arab elite. After liberation - Shia muslims rightly have the majority of power; while Sunni Muslim Kurds thrive economically - untouched by the senseless sectarian slaughter waged between Sunni Arab and Shia Arab.
So that's two Sunni Muslim people (Kosovo, North Iraq) protected and fought for by Western forces (against Christian and Sunni muslims aggressors respectively).
And one Shia Muslim Arab nation liberated and given democratic and religious freedom - at great cost and despite Shia Iran's interference and threat.
Whatever you think about Iraq, the outcome was undeniably a win for Shia muslims AND Sunni muslim Kurds.
Unless you come from that strain of salafi/Wahhabi Sunni Islam which has bombed Shia women and children from Iraq to Pakistan - a slaughter so indiscriminate, so cynical it wouldn't be possible to get away with - without the help of a gullible Western audience happy to blame anything or anyone as long as we make sure it's all about us, always - because that saves us actually having to care, while we pretend to really care...
And so it goes for most of the countries listed above. Bush Senior ham fistedly tried Intervention in Somalia. Everyone cheered when US Rangers were dragged through the streets. Clinton got the message and left Somalia to 20 years of death, war and starvation. And just when Somalia might just have a chance - jihadi muslims slaughter other muslims and people like Adebolajo try to go to Somalia to help slaughter those Somali muslims. Because they're not the "right type of muslim"...
Yemen - a front line in drone "warfare" since Al Qaeda move operations there. Funnily enough right about the time Saudi Arabia and Iran started a proxy war via the border Tribal Shia Yemenis (not to mention the great whacking fence the Saudi's have built to keep out "wrong types of Arabs"...
Mali? Are you serious? A Sufi muslim land occupied by foreign salafists - how anyone could pretend this was about "killing muslims" is beyond satire.
And of course Syria is a great example - where Baathist ideology has birthed the opposite of Iraq - an Alawite Shia cult controlling and repressing a Sunni majority; in modern times beholden to Iranian masters who care more about the flow of arms to Hezbollah than the almost 80, 000 dead Muslims in just under two years. Luckily for all concerned, 80, 000 dead Syrians in two years doesn't register - because it aint about "us".
And, of course, Pakistan - the worst affected by drone attacks. The country that created the Taliban. The country where Bin Laden hid in plain sight. Where vast areas of tribal mountain border land has effectively been ceded to Pakistani Taliban. Where every day for the few months some Shia muslim gathering has been bombed. The country where Mumbai was conceived; 7/7; almost every known threat to the UK...
Getting involved here is any surprise? They're so busy killing people how can you tell who is Muslim or not?
Finally:
All of the above is fact. But none of it justifies anything. Just because it's demonstrably false to say Iraq/Afghanistan were "anti-muslim" doesn't make them right. But it needs to be restated.
Because these acts are enabled by the flimsiest of self-justifiers: and either Adebolajo is wrong - or he's able to represent mainstream Muslim belief...
nothing to do with being a muslim. guy was a murderer. guy committed murder. unjustifiably (tobetautological)
Bloody hell - you are a master at missing the point, precisely because you refuse to acknowledge the Elephant standing right next to it.
The guy made a full statement, hands still wet with blood from cutting a head from a body, insisting that EVERYTHING he'd done was about "being a muslim".
Therefore it's simply ludicrous to say it's "nothing to do with being a muslim". Even with the best of intentions and nuances that statement is a flat out surreal LIE. Who on earth do you think you are helping by making such stupid, anti-reality statements?
Other Muslims? You really think the vast majority of muslims - those who don't think all Muslims have a duty to behead the odd pedestrian - you think they'll be helped by you arguing that this is "nothing to do with being a muslim"?
Or is there any chance that people passing through will look at your words and think: "This guy's a lying liar. The Muslim bloke SAID he did it cos he was Muslim. They ARE ALL LIARS".
Take the time to read my post, BlackCat. It doesn't ask you to change any of your positions on any issue - except to end the pernicious and ruinous lie that Allied action since 1998 can in any way be described as "anti-muslim".
The murderer, Adebolajo, committed his murder in the name of Islam. He clearly needed a "enabling" motive as he ranted about it while he waited for "martyrdom. The enabling device was Jihadi Islam. He would not have committed this crime without the umbrella psychological protection offered by his "religion" and re-inforced by an Western debate so utterly self-obsessed that this guy could apologise for "women" seeing him cut off someone's head - while clearly supporting the "muslims" who murder girls who like to go to school.
It was about "being muslim". It always has been. Especially for muslims - who have been the prime target of Salafi/Wahhabi slaughter long before 9/11.
I dunno. Maybe I'm wrong. My kids go to a South London school less than 2 kms from Woolwich. Most of their friends are Muslim. Believe me - pretending this isn't about "being muslim" is not an option any more. Such quisling evasions just make everything worse.
But I'll be sure to pass on your wise words to next bunch of fascist EDL twats we have to deal with...
errr, you illegitimise, that aint a word, but i will make it up anyhow, you illegitimise everything these criminals did, but you LEGITimise, their muslim motive. it was intrinsic to their behaviour. yep, that works for me too.
can i have those elephant tusks to sell on the black market for sino aphrodisiac, theres no aphrodisiac, like sino elephant tusks, truth beauty, and a picture of hawkforce in idf regalia
JRoo
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And I believe various nut cases have attempted to justify their murderous ways through some ideal or deity such as their dog told them to kill. Pure and simple they are raving nutcases who murdered and would have murdered no matter what their justification was.
Wow just wow, so that means blokes like Timothy mcveigh, anders breivik weren't right wing terrorists?
They were just nutters who co-opted a peace loving doctrine, concerned with everyday citizens safety and used it as an excuse to main kill and murder?
Or is this one of those Cognitive dissonance sorta things?
They were just nutters who co-opted a peace loving doctrine, concerned with everyday citizens safety and used it as an excuse to main kill and murder?
Or is this one of those Cognitive dissonance sorta things?
Do you actually know any muslims, blackcat? I mean "know" in that every day work sense. Where you know them well enough to know they're religious and their religion is Islam and you're comfortable trusting them to carry out your orders; or comfortable carrying out their orders - but you're not quite ready to reveal what can only be a shared objective and nuanced rejection of Israel's right to exist: in case they're either a) Nutter jihadis who might bring down the "heat"... or b) Normal people who might think you are the nutter...
Anyway, I happen to know a few Muslims. Old, mature, youths and (mostly) children. Because we live in a community. Our kids go to school together. I also work with Muslims - as creative partners. Not as avatars to use to fit our conception but actual real people, young creative people, who are just as confused and searching as anyone - but right now are targets for an EDL backlash which is actually less about the murder (that's happened before) but because of the limp rhetorical response to it from leaders and Government.
Because ****wits like you deny, absolutely, that this murder has anything to do with "being Muslim" - when there's video of the blood-stained murderer stating he only did it in service of "being a muslim"
you achieve two things:
You alienate almost everyone who might have listened to your brand of paleo-liberalism by peddling a bizzarely stupid and obvious lie. The man's own words invokes his Muslim faith. His claim to be motivated by that faith. And his rationale for balancing the teaching of that faith so as to carry out his murder... This from a sarf London convert born in Christian Nigeria - yet STILL there's some ****wits who'd pretend that someone who decapitates a UK soldier while yelling "Allah Akbar" can be passed off (to anyone outside the Anti-semites Assemble groupuscle that masquerades as "international Politics" Forum ) as a "person of no fixed opinion or politics or religion. Which most sane people realise is stupid.
Worse, you adopt a position supposed to "support" the Muslim community - when in fact everything you say and do is, at best, harmful and, at worst, Islamophobic at root.
Exactly.
I'm not sure you realise you agree with me: and that we share an issue with a... certain group of people who think Adebolajo's grievances against "soldiers killing muslims in our lands" should be given grave consideration (ie: he was kinda right to cut off that guy's head because... well I aint sure)
uncle is a law prof, of sri lankan (malay extraction) muslim culturally. never practising. try getting into US to do fellowships at the college in Cambridge Mass, not easy, THE college. also fellowships at both oxbridges. but travelling not easy thru America.
but no, i dont think i know anyone practising. Wally Aly is about it.
from mick western district potato farming stock, and other side prottos from UK. not that it matters
yeah, fu ckwits like me, i aint denying. the guy is a murderer, but you can legitimise anything he says. how about those rabbis chief rabbe of the IDF praising and invoking soldiers to kill goyim. or GW Bush talking about crusades and then razing fallujah because some folk killed blackwater mercs, after fallujahs history being bombed under empire's yoke.
its pretty easy slinging mud in either direction. easy to find the evidence, its profuse. think you are arguing on nature of man really.
there is definitely a dire problem in the ME part of Islam, that has infected the muslim diaspora. but thats as far as i will go. something intrinsically or inherently evil in Islam? if you take moral equivalence, there is no difference in any abrahamic religion
MaddAdam
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I appreciate your much longer post above. I don't agree with it all but don't have the time or energy on a Sunday to answer line by line.
That said, my most recent post on the direct subject of the London attack was that it is my view these guys are mentally ill more than anything.
Didn't think you did.
Because if you were surrounded by ordinary people, every day people doing the school run - most of whom happen to be Muslim: black, brown and white - and of all sects and strains (ie: those who just cover their hair as opposed to the one or two mothers who submit to the muzzle of full Niqab...)
If you lived amongst all the myriad of choices this community makes day by day - the choices they have ahead; the opportunities - versus the rhetoric of "now".
The rhetoric which says they're fated to be either hopeless victims or hopeless criminals. When, right now, they are nothing but kids with a future. But kids who exist in a bubble where increasingly they're being defined by their religion, their race and skin colour (anyone who has lived in West African and Caribbean immigrant communities will know all about that! )
In light of this, what these kids have ahead; what they''ve got to deal with as an aside... What they really don't need is Sarf London "reverts" beheading people in the name of Allah. They especially don't need sections of the so-called "liberal" set telling everyone that it's important to listen to "beheading revert"'s root grievances - not least because their estate is the one that's targeted by EDL numpties angry that some people want to blame Western society... An editorial decision made by people who'd run a thousand miles before settling down in a Comprehensive school...
come on DoP, you are smarter than this. he says all are fact. he is deluded enough to believe everything State says, and Alistair Campbell.
Hawkforce why did you not watch the Beeb piece on the death squads that the US had created and fomented. this was not about liberation. KAbul, is not about educating women. you believe when Laura Bush speaks of womens education. you know Karl Rove trotted her out dont you.
Alistair Campbell loves fools like you, as it gave him carte blanche for their world as battlefield game
Snake_Baker
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I'm sensing the presence of zion.
So we went from the killings being justified because of wars to, oh their just disenfranchised youths there poor it's euro immigration policies not giving enough hand outs, to oh they are bad people who grew up with gangs and now finally
Mentally ill!
Why is it so important that you make an excuse's for these blokes? There's only one reason they did what they did radicalised Islam, that's it.
It's not main stream Islam it's the ****ing nutter element that even normal Muslims fear, yet your pretending like it's got nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it, it was why the did it.
and ALL I HAVE FRICKEN SAID, is that it was not an act of Islam. The guy is a nutcase murderer, who offers motive being magic book and islam. i am merely contesting this validity. as cats in your neighbourhood would. they would deny that it was islamic to behead someone in the street in civilian london. the guy is a criminal, and needs to be locked up, to protect others.
i questioned DoP wrt this victim/target? as legitimate because he was a soldier in civvies. So armed forces lose all agency as civilian actors when in suburban civilisation? i had a difficult time reconciling that.
i think you have lost a few steps in your interpretation of my logic.
i know that the murderer/criminal said. i just denied its validity. I dont think muslim individuals in your neighbourhood will offer it credibility. (I hope). or if they do, they have a warped, un-islamic interpretation of quran
Wow... an "upstanding individual fighting for universal justice over borders or porous borders"
All that remains is knowing her race/colour/ethnicity/bra size...
Oh... She's Jewish?
Actually you mentioned that first..
I hope she hasn't revealed her true Protocol self and decapitated some liberal member of the Daily Show's audience?!
*watched link. Bitterly disappointed....
well, atleast you had the good grace not to call her a fu ckwit too. but i like the invoking of Protocols. You like the False Flag game dont you
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evo
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the paragraph that seems to have made you the angriest was probably his best one.
I don't think he was actually speaking about you there.
question in good faith: have you actually read the Quran? I don't mean via Wally Ali, I mean read it your self?
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