Play Nice Society, Religion & Politics Thread

[ErrolisGoldun]

It is for relations, its an acknowledgement of an ancient tradition our indigenous people carry out to this day.

Prefer an acknowledgment to the indigenous people rather than a minutes silence to a Queen who does not rule or do anything really apart from be a figurehead. The royal family are in essence glorified dole bludgers, the whole concept is ridiculous.

 

[Kirkswan]

the silence for a monarch or the welcome to country , toss up which pile of crap is more annoying

Lol! I have not issue with either of those... its the bloody national anthem being played at a national game that annoys the shit out of me!

What's the fricken point???

 

[Kirkswan]

You lot are killing me right now

Still a week or two (I hope) to go... only gonna get worse from here!

The more they/we stress, the more they/we will bicker...

We're like 3 yro's who need a nap

 

[Kirkswan]

it's more worthwhile than the garbage our politicians go through paying homage to the queen (well, now it'll be king) at the opening of parliament, or singing the fckng "national" anthem at whatever damn occasion suits, or ... spare me! ... thanking fckng god for a meal (something, fortunately, i've never had to endure)
or even the anzac day stuff ... honouring the memory of people conned into fighting and dying for another country's "empire" a few years after this country was declared ... yet there's still this offensive resistance to honouring the deaths of all those original inhabitants who were slaughtered trying to defend this country, THEIR country, from the forces of that other damned "empire"

none of those "ceremonies" is as relevant as a welcome to country in regards the people who have inhabited this land for 60,000-odd years until it was taken from them
geez, man, have some perspective and at least the good grace and sense not to whinge about a welcome to country if you're not gonna whinge about all the rest of it
i like your footy posts, you seem like a good feller with a sense of humour, and yes, you're entitled to your opinions, but come on ... some perspective

This is just rubbish and disrespectful to those who fought.

Australia's population at that time was roughly 6.5M, with the vast majority being Brittish. And they volunteered to fight in their droves! They fought for family, friends, a way of life and belief of freedom.

 

[the hypnotoad]

This is just rubbish and disrespectful to those who fought.

Australia's population at that time was roughly 6.5M, with the vast majority being Brittish. And they volunteered to fight in their droves! They fought for family, friends, a way of life and belief of freedom.

it's not rubbish to be critical of the circumstances of what was and still is a national horror
and a lack of respect for those who fought was not the point!!!
the reasons were for fighting in that war were a con, but we only know that from the lessons of history
you're avoiding my point ... which was that as a comparison to the completely shameful lack of respect for the first australians who fought to defend THEIR country, the anzac thing is out of proportion and i fully understand indigenous people finding it beyond offensive
those who fought in WWI did so for what they believed were the right reasons, and fair enough ...

 

[Mister B]

Lol! I have not issue with either of those... its the bloody national anthem being played at a national game that annoys the s**t out of me!

What's the fricken point???

To create a big roar right before the start of the game for theatre?

 

[Dubai Quacker]

I don’t mind the welcome to country before an AFL game - it kind of has some meaning & I’ve learned a bit from some of them.

I also enjoy the anthem before a final.

And I love the last post on Anzac Day.

What annoys me is having to sit through some corporate type doing an acknowledgment of country before a bloody routine business meeting held on the 30th floor of a building. Absolutely pointless tokenism that demeans the whole thing.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

And the AFLW has cancelled the minutes silence before the rest of the games as it's too sensitive being the indigenous round . The world has gone f ing mad

Personally, given the respective issues, and given the chronology, I can’t imagine a more open-and-shut case.

AFLW Indigenous Round locked into the calendar, presumably for some years now (forgive my ignorance).

Queen dies.

Are you seriously suggesting, given the British Crown’s leading role in dispossession of indigenous Australians, that the AFL saying “sorry folks, we’re going to have squeeze a minute’s silence for the Queen into Indigenous Round because she just died, and, y’know, like, she was THE QUEEN” wouldn’t be the most insulting thing ever?

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Or they think it is hypocritical window dressing. but you can run with trying to label everyone racist if you like

It’s not “labelling everyone racist”, it’s simply asking that the truth (and the full truth) be told and acknowledged.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I understand what i know and that is that she wasn't alive when the murdering of our first nation people , she was a good person and i believe we should be a republic .

No-one said she was.

Her untold wealth and privilege were certainly attributable to her ancestors doing exactly that though. And that needs to be remembered amongst all the misty-eyed recollections of what a wonderful monarch she was.

If you disagree, you OK with us ditching Anzac Day, because none of us went ashore at Gallipoli?

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

If you think someone reading a few words before a sporting contest does that then great

Again, kinda like The Ode on Anzac Day then?

 

[Dubai Quacker]

Personally, given the respective issues, and given the chronology, I can’t imagine a more open-and-shut case.

AFLW Indigenous Round locked into the calendar, presumably for some years now (forgive my ignorance).

Queen dies.

Are you seriously suggesting, given the British Crown’s leading role in dispossession of indigenous Australians, that the AFL saying “sorry folks, we’re going to have squeeze a minute’s silence for the Queen into Indigenous Round because she just died, and, y’know, like, she was THE QUEEN” wouldn’t be the most insulting thing ever?

I think “the most insulting thing ever” is way over the top.

There’s a noisy group of activists who delight in taking offence - but I’m yet to find a culture that doesn’t have a means of respectfully remembering those who’ve passed away. To take offence is a bit unreasonable.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Why can't people have different opinions about life on here

No-one says they can’t, least of all the post you’re replying to.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

They fought for family, friends, a way of life and belief of freedom.

Which overtly and specifically included the White Australia Policy, but for some reason people don’t mention that very much.

Best We Forget

Buy Best We Forget, The War for White Australia, 1914-18 by Peter Cochrane from Booktopia. Get a discounted Paperback from Australia's leading online bookstore.

www.booktopia.com.au

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I think “the most insulting thing ever” is way over the top.

There’s a noisy group of activists who delight in taking offence - but I’m yet to find a culture that doesn’t have a means of respectfully remembering those who’ve passed away. To take offence is a bit unreasonable.

Unless you were under a rock since yesterday morning, I think you’d agree there is little danger of the Queen not being remembered respectfully. Twenty-four hours of OTT gushing, wall-to-wall tributes from every single media outlet in the Anglosphere and no doubt plenty elsewhere, and we’ve only just started. Entire forests have been sacrificed to the task of singing her praises.

And her awesome wealth and privilege was built on a dehumanisation of people perceived to be not like herself.

In the light of the gargantuan disparity in wealth and power, forgive me if I don’t find that squeamishness about telling a few home truths a little self-serving.

 

[bedford]

No-one said she was.

Her untold wealth and privilege were certainly attributable to her ancestors doing exactly that though. And that needs to be remembered amongst all the misty-eyed recollections of what a wonderful monarch she was.

If you disagree, you OK with us ditching Anzac Day, because none of us went ashore at Gallipoli?

Love and respect for Anzac Day and anyone who's against it can go forth and multiply

 

[Kirkswan]

it's not rubbish to be critical of the circumstances of what was and still is a national horror
and a lack of respect for those who fought was not the point!!!
the reasons were for fighting in that war were a con, but we only know that from the lessons of history
you're avoiding my point ... which was that as a comparison to the completely shameful lack of respect for the first australians who fought to defend THEIR country, the anzac thing is out of proportion and i fully understand indigenous people finding it beyond offensive
those who fought in WWI did so for what they believed were the right reasons, and fair enough ...

I'm not avoiding your point, why would I?

I know the difference between a Welcome to Country which is what happens on an AFL field when a local indigenous person welcomes us; and an Acknowledgement of Country which is when a non-indigenous person acknowledges all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, the land we meet on, the local people and their continuing connection to the land; and pays their respects to them. I know my local peoples, and many of the surrounding peoples, and I lend them my support wherever I can.

None of the indigenous peoples I know find Anzac day offensive, almost all find Australia day offensive.

The sentence I took offence to was: honouring the memory of people conned into fighting and dying for another country's "empire" a few years after this country was declared. It was simply not true, and it was offensive, to my father, my uncles, and their fathers. It was offensive to me, who honours those who came before me and gave either their lives or their health. It was hyperbole, and it is simply not true.

What happened in the 17, 18 and early 19 hundreds to the indigenous peoples of Australia was horrific. It doesn't need to be compared to anything else. It stands alone as a national shame. In my view, it should be recognised with a specific day and included in curriculum. Pick any one of the days on which these massacres occurred, and use it as a day of remembrance and acknowledgement.

You used made up stuff to support your point, denigrating another group in the process, which degraded the value of your whole argument and makes it appear suspect. I took offence.

 

[bedford]

I'm not avoiding your point, why would I?

I know the difference between a Welcome to Country which is what happens on an AFL field when a local indigenous person welcomes us; and an Acknowledgement of Country which is when a non-indigenous person acknowledges all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, the land we meet on, the local people and their continuing connection to the land; and pays their respects to them. I know my local peoples, and many of the surrounding peoples, and I lend them my support wherever I can.

None of the indigenous peoples I know find Anzac day offensive, almost all find Australia day offensive.

The sentence I took offence to was: honouring the memory of people conned into fighting and dying for another country's "empire" a few years after this country was declared. It was simply not true, and it was offensive, to my father, my uncles, and their fathers. It was offensive to me, who honours those who came before me and gave either their lives or their health. It was hyperbole, and it is simply not true.

What happened in the 17, 18 and early 19 hundreds to the indigenous peoples of Australia was horrific. It doesn't need to be compared to anything else. It stands alone as a national shame. In my view, it should be recognised with a specific day and included in curriculum. Pick any one of the days on which these massacres occurred, and use it as a day of remembrance and acknowledgement.

You used made up stuff to support your point, denigrating another group in the process, which degraded the value of your whole argument and makes it appear suspect. I took offence.

Is good at that

 

[the hypnotoad]

I'm not avoiding your point, why would I?

I know the difference between a Welcome to Country which is what happens on an AFL field when a local indigenous person welcomes us; and an Acknowledgement of Country which is when a non-indigenous person acknowledges all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, the land we meet on, the local people and their continuing connection to the land; and pays their respects to them. I know my local peoples, and many of the surrounding peoples, and I lend them my support wherever I can.

None of the indigenous peoples I know find Anzac day offensive, almost all find Australia day offensive.

The sentence I took offence to was: honouring the memory of people conned into fighting and dying for another country's "empire" a few years after this country was declared. It was simply not true, and it was offensive, to my father, my uncles, and their fathers. It was offensive to me, who honours those who came before me and gave either their lives or their health. It was hyperbole, and it is simply not true.

What happened in the 17, 18 and early 19 hundreds to the indigenous peoples of Australia was horrific. It doesn't need to be compared to anything else. It stands alone as a national shame. In my view, it should be recognised with a specific day and included in curriculum. Pick any one of the days on which these massacres occurred, and use it as a day of remembrance and acknowledgement.

You used made up stuff to support your point, denigrating another group in the process, which degraded the value of your whole argument and makes it appear suspect. I took offence.

ok, fair enough, i see your points
i certainly have no love for australia day, in its current form it's a confection
i was not trying to denigrate what anzac day means to millions ... my grandfather, my most cherished male family member, survived changi so i my aim was not to dishonour individual sacrifice
but i maintain that australia's role in ww1 was more about britain than australia as a country
and i also concede that part of my core politics is a kneejerk contempt for the hard and religious right

 

[Kirkswan]

I don’t mind the welcome to country before an AFL game - it kind of has some meaning & I’ve learned a bit from some of them.

I also enjoy the anthem before a final.

And I love the last post on Anzac Day.

What annoys me is having to sit through some corporate type doing an acknowledgment of country before a bloody routine business meeting held on the 30th floor of a building. Absolutely pointless tokenism that demeans the whole thing.

I hesitate to point this out, given the tone of the thread at the moment, but it's not pointless...

When we go to in a group or individually to any place in Australia, we say 'hello' to acknowledge the people already there. The Acknowledgement of Country is a way of doing the same thing, only observing the customs of the first people. It's not pointless, nor is it tokenism, unless you want to take it that way.

It educates, it raises the profile of indigenous Australians, and it starts conversations just like these... Many Australians have no idea on whose country they meet when they are first asked to do an acknowledgement. In investigating to find out, they learn something about their local people.

It's a worthwhile thing to acknowledge the past, and recognise the future will require reconciliation.

 

[Kirkswan]

Which overtly and specifically included the White Australia Policy, but for some reason people don’t mention that very much.

Best We Forget

Buy Best We Forget, The War for White Australia, 1914-18 by Peter Cochrane from Booktopia. Get a discounted Paperback from Australia's leading online bookstore.

www.booktopia.com.au

The White Australia Policy existed, of that there can be no doubt.

Women were owned by either their fathers or their husbands or their closest living male relatives.

People with disabilities where hidden away, given away and killed at birth.

Africans and women were sold as slaves for centuries.

Is there no-one we can commemorate? Are we to forget the past because no-one is innocent?

 

[Kirkswan]

ok, fair enough, i see your points
i certainly have no love for australia day, in its current form it's a confection
i was not trying to denigrate what anzac day means to millions ... my grandfather, my most cherished male family member, survived changi so i my aim was not to dishonour individual sacrifice
but i maintain that australia's role in ww1 was more about britain than australia as a country
and i also concede that part of my core politics is a kneejerk contempt for the hard and religious right

Lol! All good, I was quick to arm as well.

Australia day should be moved imo, and we should exchange one of our other public holiday for an Indigenous Australia holiday of their choosing.

 

[ErrolisGoldun]

question on Anzac Day, when should we stop it? Or should it just be remembered forever?

 

[Kirkswan]

question on Anzac Day, when should we stop it? Or should it just be remembered forever?

Just my opinion... no offence meant to anyone...

Anzac day can cease any time after there are no direct relatives of less than four generations still alive (in other words, parents, siblings, children and grandchildren). However, this is for all those who lose their lives in defence or in service for their country. Not just those for WW1.

Easter long weekend and Christmas public holidays are the ones that should go imo. Less than half the population now professes Christianity...

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Is there no-one we can commemorate? Are we to forget the past because no-one is innocent?

We spend a lot of time commemorating what is great about our history, as we should.

It's not a binary, so why present it like it is?

How often did they teach us at school that Prime Minister Billy Hughes said "I bid you go and fight for white Australia in France"?

Zero times.

Why?

Because Anzac Day has been co-opted, sometimes with good intentions, sometimes not. Let's start by admitting that it has.

Likewise, how are we to move forward as a nation if it's never the right time to talk about indigenous dispossession?

The death of the figurehead whose eye-watering wealth and privilege were very much created from such acts of dispossession by her direct ancestors strikes me as the perfect time to talk about it.