St Kilda President Andrew Bassat tees off on the AFL draft system, specifically father/son and the Northern Academies

[Sarcoidevo]

I fully agree with the Saint's president.

Ditch the father sons.

It currently means some with players in the draft effectively get to choose their club, while most don't. Daddy boys need to hard up and carve out their own path, or seek a trade where the club that picked them is compensated at a market rate.

We can't continue to have top picks undermining a key equalisation measure.

As I see it, the main stakeholders attached to F/S are older supporters reminiscing about players from a bygone era. Does anyone think it's sad that Dunkley didn't play for Sydney on Saturday??

And have the academies run by the AFL. If it's for the development of the game, then the AFL should run it with their deep pockets.

He didn't say ditch

Just pay a fair price for them

 

[Sentinel]

I fully agree with the Saint's president.

Ditch the father sons.

It currently means some with players in the draft effectively get to choose their club, while most don't. Daddy boys need to hard up and carve out their own path, or seek a trade where the club that picked them is compensated at a market rate.

We can't continue to have top picks undermining a key equalisation measure.

As I see it, the main stakeholders attached to F/S are older supporters reminiscing about players from a bygone era. Does anyone think it's sad that Dunkley didn't play for Sydney on Saturday??

And have the academies run by the AFL. If it's for the development of the game, then the AFL should run it with their deep pockets.

That's not what he said though.

 

[Toump Ass]

Sydney lost a GF got Heeny then finished top 4 got Mills. The year they got gifted Blakey they split their first round pick for the points and kept an early pick for Rowbottom.

And for what, they just shit their pants whenever they get to the grand final too.

 

[The Feeder Club]

If father son is about the romance of the son playing where his dad was a rusted on player, a change they should introduce is to restrict it to sons of one club players.
Dad plays 150 games for club A, but at the end of his career is off to play 30 games for another club, yeah he didn't love club A so much, or they didn't love him. Club A don't get his son.
It's even worse if dad plays 100 for two clubs and his son gets to choose which one his dad loved most? Spare me

 

[Nvent]

If father son is about the romance of the son playing where his dad was a rusted on player, a change they should introduce is to restrict it to sons of one club players.
Dad plays 150 games for club A, but at the end of his career is off to play 30 games for another club, yeah he didn't love club A so much, or they didn't love him. Club A don't get his son.
It's even worse of dad plays 100 for two clubs and his son gets to choose which one his dad loved most? Spare me

What about Nick Blakey?

 

[MSB ROYS]

Is there data to back this up? How many players have Swans and Lions lost to “go home factor” under their current coaches - and is that more than Victorian clubs?

Less need when GWS and GC are there to raid.

 

[bergholt]

The processes that contribute to creating F/S selections are so innumerate and intangible that is it effectively governed by randomness. If something is non-biased (that is having no weight, malice or favour in any direction) as randomness is, it is fair - rather in the case of this discussion its better to say it is not unfair.

I don't think "innumerate" means what you think it means.

I do disagree about fairness of process, because there's historical bias built in. More historically successful and well run teams are more likely to have 100 gamers which gives them more tickets in the raffle. This means everyone doesn't have the same chance so it's not purely random; it's random based on a given history.

But overall, sure, that's a reasonable point. What you're saying then is it's fine if the premier gets discounted access to the #1 pick because it was random that they got it. I disagree with that, and I think it's enough of a negative outcome that I would dismantle the entire system.

An open draft for all would be a delightful idea if you don't value the Father/Son-Club connection at all

What does the father/son-club connection have to do with it, though? Clubs can still draft sons of old players if they want to keep bloodlines at their club. Man City managed to keep the ancestral club connection with the Haalands without needing a special rule for it.

What we're talking about here is giving clubs discounted access to sons. That's completely unnecessary if clubs value the connection as much as everyone implies they do. It's just an unnecessary source of future inequality.

Is it unfair St Kilda have botched draft picks and haven't hit the jackpot on the draft year after year? Does the unfair distribution of premiership flags across the league concern you?

As a Saints supporter, of course it's unfair that I ended up supporting a shit team, and there's literally zero I can do to make them better. As a dispassionate observer, no, there's always going to be a distribution of flags.

But the point of having equalisation is to minimise the variance, and give every club a decent shot every 10 years or so. I can't see any argument that father-son helps that process. But if you don't want equalisation, that's fine, just say so and there's no argument against that.

 

[Toump Ass]

Weird - no one gave a shit when we were crap for 15 years. Also noticed no one was kicking up a stink when we lost 5 players for nothing in one year. If it’s all about fairness why was no one screaming please help the lions then? Took 5 players, put development in and then sold at half price- that was ok though wasn’t it! Was ok when Marc Murphy knocked back the lions wasn’t it?

Sook harder.

3 of the players you traded were plodders. Your coach at the time was accused of physically abusing your players, got sacked and suddenly your players didn't want to leave anymore! Coincidence? Sure!

Reports were the AFL warned your board that extending Leppa's contract was a mistake, and when you did it anyway and fired him shortly afterwards the AFL had to chip in half a million dollars for paying out his contract (you already owed them 13 million at the time).

Also fairly sure you got a priority pick which helped you net Charlie Cameron?

You got plenty of help.

 

[flamethrower]

Have you ever explained the father son rule to an epl or nba fan?

In my experience, they see it as laughable and can’t comprehend how such a rule exists in a professional sport.

Have you ever explained gun culture to a Seppo? They see it as laughable that Skippy's can't own fully automatic machine guns. Your argument has been ruled irrelevant.

The issue isn’t the access. It’s the cost.

Imagine actually needing to pay the equivalent cost for Libba West JUH Darcy & Croft etc

We don't make the rules, just abide by them.

This whole thing has the feel of "Same old St Kilda, always blaming someone else".

I remember when my club used to be like this for decades - then David Smorgon became President and began changing the culture of the club to the point now where we are fully self sufficient with 60,000 plus members, massive corporate support and world class facilities.

Now if only someone would tear down Marvel so we can play more games at the mighty MCG.

No more poor old Doggies as everyone's second team, now we are hated to the point people make up myths about why we win premierships.

 

[CharacterFirst]

There's a difference between equalisation and unequalisation. If you don't understand that then I'm not sure your comments are going to add to this thread.

There is a difference between equality and equity as well.

You seem to want equity.

Not buying that one St Kilda.

 

[mighty_lions]

The audacity to call me a pelican while not even knowing one of your greatest ever players in Jonathan Brown is a father-son selection.

Congratulations on outing yourself as a bandwagon-jumping moron lmao.

25 years ago wood de doop as a Fitzroy father son , and yeah definitely a bandwagoner

 

[Sarcoidevo]

It's straightforward ... if Levi Ashcroft gets picked in the Top 5 this year and Brions match then Brions should gave to cough up their 1st pick this year and next year's 1st pick .... no more shitty discounts and matching with multiple 3rd and 4th round picks .... you still get access to him but pay up properly

 

[caloschwaby]

I don't think "innumerate" means what you think it means.

Apologies you're right, meant innumerable.

What does the father/son-club connection have to do with it, though? Clubs can still draft sons of old players if they want to keep bloodlines at their club. Man City managed to keep the ancestral club connection with the Haalands without needing a special rule for it.

I should reiterate my first response where I do agree revising the discount clubs get for the F/S selection as the main benefit should be to be able to bid on the player if they are selected. Personally I believe the value of that connection does give a team more of a "right" to that player (whether real or not, at least in the case of Collingwood our club is quite active in the development of some of these Moores/Daicos x2 and put genuine time and resources into getting them ready for the rigours of AFL).

I will agree this is a concession that doesn't lead to equal outcomes (while not being unfair), but I value this system being a feature of our league available to all clubs more than the harm it does for equalisation. Just does so much for the tapestry and history of the league as well as the club's supporters connection with these families. Respectfully, the Daicos name is utterly meaningless at the Gold Coast (who bid on him) in the same way I find it slightly disappointing Ed Richards and Sam Weideman haven't made their way to Collingwood.

Not having a club with a Top 3 pick essentially hold you over the keel for every asset you have to exploit this connection (knowing you value the player even more beyond their ability to play) makes the arrangement less toxic between clubs. As the step-by-step scenario I pointed out in a post before, that player ideally gets to be at the club they truly desire and would've fought to get to the second their rookie contract ends.

But overall, sure, that's a reasonable point. What you're saying then is it's fine if the premier gets discounted access to the #1 pick because it was random that they got it. I disagree with that, and I think it's enough of a negative outcome that I would dismantle the entire system.

And that's fair to disagree, I see why you do. I think it's just that - if you see it as negative enough of an outcome to dismantle it or not. I don't at all and not just due to our success with it as mentioned before (P.S people mention both Daicos bros here, but forget Josh was picked at 57 in 2016 - we didn't even need to bid on him every club just passed him up twice).

IMO academies are far worse and actually discriminate from club to club. They are designed and guaranteed to cultivate high-quality talent that get sent straight to Northern clubs with no competition. At least with F/S its random whether a kid eligible will play footy, let alone be good enough at it to be drafted, let alone be good enough to be considered a Top 10 pick.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

Sook harder.

3 of the players you traded were plodders. Your coach at the time was accused of physically abusing your players, got sacked and suddenly your players didn't want to leave anymore! Coincidence? Sure!

Reports were the AFL warned your board that extending Leppa's contract was a mistake, and when you did it anyway and fired him shortly afterwards the AFL had to chip in half a million dollars for paying out his contract (you already owed them 13 million at the time).

Also fairly sure you got a priority pick which helped you net Charlie Cameron?

You got plenty of help.

Sook- who Sooking, , won the flag and about to get Levi and Marshall, let’s not forget about Kiddy either- he was an academy boy. My point was every one was happy for that stuff to go down and no one screamed foul because it didn’t hurt them. Now - the whole comp is uneven ha ha. Maybe just worry about your rabble - get em off the nose beers, Clarry off the pokies and try to convince everyone Tracc wants to be there. Anyway I’m off to watch the replay.

 

[mighty_lions]

It's straightforward ... if Levi Ashcroft gets picked in the Top 5 this year and Brions match then Brions should gave to cough up their 1st pick this year and next year's 1st pick .... no more shitty discounts and matching with multiple 3rd and 4th round picks .... you still get access to him but pay up properly

hahahahahahahahahahahahah no

 

[Toump Ass]

25 years ago wood de doop as a Fitzroy father son , and yeah definitely a bandwagoner

"wood de doop", I'm not even sure what language you are trying to speak any more?

You said you'd never had a Father Son before Levi Ashcroft, but that is incorrect. Brown was a multiple AA, Coleman-winning giant of the game, a triple-premiership player, and has been inducted into the hall of fame.

Nice guy also, very humble, loves a yarn.

 

[mighty_lions]

"wood de doop", I'm not even sure what language you are trying to speak any more?

You said you'd never had a Father Son before Levi Ashcroft, but that is incorrect. Brown was a multiple AA, Coleman-winning giant of the game, a triple-premiership player, and has been inducted into the hall of fame.

Nice guy also, very humble, loves a yarn.

yeah and everyone has the same access to father son, so your point is irrelevant

 

[mighty_lions]

Brown was a multiple AA, Coleman-winning giant of the game, a triple-premiership player, and has been inducted into the hall of fame.

thank you I had never heard of him before

 

[CharacterFirst]

Not really competitively equal when the Hawks just took one of their only good players for less than what St Kilda allegedly were offering.

But I suppose if the Saints want to treat their players like this...

View attachment 2127838

Way to stuff any chance of getting future F/S from this guy as well.

 

[TheEscapeClub]

He's the St Kilda president but he's raising it on behalf of the whole comp.

But also, the more historically successful a club is, the more 100 gamers it has, the more chance it has at eligible sons, the more chance one of them will be good. The Saints have been historically unsuccessful so yeah, we're pushing shit uphill.

..and all your champion 300 gamers, sired daughters. That's life.

 

[Elixuh]

Old Fred Basset didn't mention the NGAs. Wonder why. Oh, the mighty Sainters are benefiting from that one.

 

[TheEscapeClub]

Priority draft picks were (and still should be) a core part of equalisation. Equalisation means if you're worse, you get given more chances to get better. Your pick of Heeney was a direct undermining of equalisation.

Again, if you're against equalisation feel free to just come out and say it. But you can't have it both ways.

If we're being honest, what has Heeney actually done? He's had a huge breakout year in his tenth season and hasn't shown up for 2 grand finals.

 

[Toffee Lion]

Well, I'm sympathetic.

Because I can recall all the sympathy and well-wishers who inhabited this thread and gave wonderful advice.

I also recall all the gnashing after we went on the threepeat over our salary cap, which "Equalisation Eddie" successfully campaigned to remove.

Nah, **** yas....we did our time as the whipping boys after our golden era, took our medicine and have built something bigger and better.

I'm happy you all wish to pile on and tear us down now, because when we on the ground you ALSO sunk the boot in.

So GAGF.

Kind of ironic that 4th post in is a Saints supporter saying "screw em" to the Lions being on their knees. How the tables have turned?

 

[Sarcoidevo]

My god there are some dumb campaigners on here

You will all be screaming blue murder once the 3 Riewoldt boys come through

 

[RUNVS]

My god there are some dumb campaigners on here

You will all be screaming blue murder once the 3 Riewoldt boys come through

Whose to say one won't become a florrest, another a doctor and another a marketing manager for BP?