Moved Thread St Kilda's 2012 Trading

[Daz]

I hope this isn't seen as sinking the boots in after a big win because I've actually been thinking about this for the last few weeks. Anyway...


IN: Tom Lee, Tom Hickey, Trent Dennis-Lane and Selections 24, 25, 40, 43 and 47
OUT: Jamie Cripps and Selections 12, 13, 36, 45, 46 and 55.

In the draft they selected Nathan Wright (24), Spencer White (25), Brodie Murdoch (40), Josh Saunders (43), and Lewis Pearce (75).

There's no point looking at the draftees yet but it's fair to say the list management team left the recruiters with a difficult task. In a crucial draft for the future of this side they traded not one but both of their first round picks. So let's take a look at the players in question.


Tom Hickey - This one is just unbelievable. Why oh why would you select a guy with no capacity to play anywhere other than the ruck when you already have McEvoy? Both of these guys are borderline useless in the forward line. They have a combined total of 1 goal this year. This is not the next NN/Cox or Bellchambers/Ryder combination and I think everyone knew that 6 months ago. Did they pick him as a backup? Did they pick him thinking he'd overtake McEvoy? Did they think both guys could play forward? No idea what the plan was but it's not working. Then you throw in the fact that Brodie Grundy went at pick 18 and the overwhelming trend in the AFL is that no one wants to give up an early pick for a ruckman. Disaster.

Tom Lee - I question the wisdom in trading out of the first round to get a 22yo 3rd tall who has already failed in the AFL system once before. Physically, he's still very underdeveloped. That means two things; we need to give him some more time but also WTF has he been doing for the past 4 years? Serious question marks over him at this stage.

Trent Dennis-Lane - Only a pick in the 40's but did they need another small/medium forward? Christ no. At 24 years of age and out of the side atm he's in serious strife. Remember they ended up using pick 75. Rather than bringing in TDL, they could've given away 47 for a couple of picks in the 50's.

 

[PieBeast]

Makes Melbourne's look like a stroke of genius.

 

[blaze036]

Saints have really dug themselves into a horrible hole

 

[StringyDog]

Spot on, said exactly the same things preseason and had essays written why they were good pickups and how St Kilda was the new Sydney and didn't need to bottom out. Needed to trade out a DalSanto while he still had top value last year when it was obvious they were in strife and still haven't been able to make call on Milne who is finished as a player, really dark times coming for this club.

 

[Black Diamond]

The Saints have drafted some really good players here and there for a few seasons, but it has been a while since they really nailed an entire years worth of recruits. A team who can score heavily in one or two trade and draft periods will go a long way towards contending for a flag.

 

[Igloo]

Yeah, i'm not a fan of what they did, and I don't know many people who are.

Got themselves out of contention for a top end midfielder, when they had consecutive picks at 12 and 13.
TDL one left me scratching my head. Would be in the top 5 worst players i've ever seen.

 

[Suma Magic]

I wonder where Hickey and Lee may have been drafted (hypothetically).

 

[Tas]

2012 wasn't a very strong draft, was a bad year to be going to the well to rebuild unless you had early picks.

If McEvoy goes down then who is going to ruck? We played Goldstein the same time as Hale and McIntosh when we were rebuilding, the wins and losses are not the most important thing for Saints right now.

They got Lee and two second round picks for pick 12, how that pans out will depend on how well Lee and the two other 2nd round boys pan out. It is too early to be critical about it.

TDL came at pretty much no great cost, was traded for a third round pick, clubs were upgrading rookies and passing into the third round which probably haven't seen for a long, long time.

 

[DardySingh360]

What about Roberton? He's been superb

 

[Daz]

What about Roberton? He's been superb

He has but, like Goddard, he doesn't really belong in this conversation.

 

[Daz]

2012 wasn't a very strong draft, was a bad year to be going to the well to rebuild unless you had early picks.

If McEvoy goes down then who is going to ruck? We played Goldstein the same time as Hale and McIntosh when we were rebuilding, the wins and losses are not the most important thing for Saints right now.

They got Lee and two second round picks for pick 12, how that pans out will depend on how well Lee and the two other 2nd round boys pan out. It is too early to be critical about it.

TDL came at pretty much no great cost, was traded for a third round pick, clubs were upgrading rookies and passing into the third round which probably haven't seen for a long, long time.

Pick 63 was the first pass. As I said in the OP, they used pick 75 which they could've upgraded quite significantly with their pick in the 40's.

You don't spend pick 12 on a backup ruckman. That's why you get the likes of Hannath and Currie.

 

[ajdude]

i believe the people in the know call this "subbing"

 

[joop]

If mcevoy goes down, Blake, Stanley, maister and Gilbert were left to ruck. Hickey was bought in as back up, and considering we upgraded other picks, i don't think it was a bad trade. It was a needs basis trade.

 

[nickrebellious]

My guess is they didn't expect their needs(Ruck & KPF) to be around the 12 & 13 mark. No one could see Grundy falling so far and no KPFs were taken in the teens. They got what they needed and added a few mid range draft picks. Seemed to have drafted well with those picks as the kids such as Wright, Murdoch and Saunders are playing games.

As for TLD, it's clear they overpaid.

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

Without Hickey last year when McEvoy was injured we had Rhys Stanley rucking who is not bad but he is injured a lot (this stretch of 10 games is i think the most he has played in a row), Kosi rucking and Jason Blake (he got some brownlow votes yes, but he was really needed down back).

The TDL trade i think was just for depth and it did not cost us much

The Lee trade was done because he had a great season in the WAFL and to give the Saints flexibility in the forward line in the Future

 

[Tas]

Pick 63 was the first pass. As I said in the OP, they used pick 75 which they could've upgraded quite significantly with their pick in the 40's.

You don't spend pick 12 on a backup ruckman. That's why you get the likes of Hannath and Currie.

Still, it speaks of the quality/depth of the 2012 draft, a lot of clubs had decided to look around.

Hickey was rated very highly as a kid, he only just turned 22 and is still underweight for his size. He is meant to be able to play forward or as a ruckman, they probably see him long-term as being a forward who gives a chop out.

Regardless, I think criticising any club for 2012 trading/drafting is way too premature. If you were to judge all clubs based on the output for 2012 trading/drafting then ours probably looks worse. But, what happens this year is pretty irrelevant.

 

[Daz]

My guess is they didn't expect their needs(Ruck & KPF) to be around the 12 & 13 mark. No one could see Grundy falling so far and no KPFs were taken in the teens. They got what they needed and added a few mid range draft picks. Seemed to have drafted well with those picks as the kids such as Wright, Murdoch and Saunders are playing games.

As for TLD, it's clear they overpaid.

Jaksch went at 12. Just because we couldn't see Grundy falling doesn't mean the recruiters weren't on the ball. Lee isn't even a genuine KPP.

The kids are being gifted games. The fact that they're getting games is meaningless.

I refuse to believe they traded for Hickey just in case McEvoy got injured. That would be complete madness.

 

[Richo83]

2012 wasn't a very strong draft, was a bad year to be going to the well to rebuild unless you had early picks.

It wasn't weak either. Given they had picks 12 and 13, they could have picked up some nice kids there, guys like Lonergan and Thurlow went around that mark.

The problem with St. Kilda is that the modern game is so fast and athletic that if you have a bad midfield, and a slow midfield at that, you can really get cut up.

Yeah, i'm not a fan of what they did, and I don't know many people who are.

What about that saints, fan, saintsseptember or whatever, writes long essays about the saints' drafting?
.

 

[Igloo]

What about that saints, fan, saintsseptember or whatever, writes long essays about the saints' drafting?
.

*excluding Saints fans

 

[bombermick]

If you're going to go include both 12 and 13 as ins, you must include Goddard as an out. Roberton's a great get, but why would you give up a high pick for a KPP who still isn't physically developed in his 20s and has failed before? Madness.

 

[Some Idiot]

People seem to bag TDL, but I personally don't probably because he kicked like 7 goals in 2 games against us.
Anyway not getting a game for the saints is a worry for sure.

 

[Richo83]

*excluding Saints fans

Oh, yeah fair point then. Fremantle did well drafting Hannath who isn't bad. Even Richmond managed to not give up much for Maric (who is struggling currently admittedly, but still).

I think the issue was not so much that they traded for players, but they traded for the wrong players. Why did they go for a suns ruckman? Why not one of their midfielders? I just seemed strange that a club whose midfield was becoming a bit slow, who had struggled to develop their midfield youth, and had just lost Goddard went after a ruckman and a KPP. I'm still not convinced that someone like Jaksch was a better bet than Lee.

 

[Defacto]

I hope this isn't seen as sinking the boots in after a big win because I've actually been thinking about this for the last few weeks. Anyway...


IN: Tom Lee, Tom Hickey, Trent Dennis-Lane and Selections 24, 25, 40, 43 and 47
OUT: Jamie Cripps and Selections 12, 13, 36, 45, 46 and 55.

In the draft they selected Nathan Wright (24), Spencer White (25), Brodie Murdoch (40), Josh Saunders (43), and Lewis Pearce (75).

There's no point looking at the draftees yet but it's fair to say the list management team left the recruiters with a difficult task. In a crucial draft for the future of this side they traded not one but both of their first round picks. So let's take a look at the players in question.


Tom Hickey - This one is just unbelievable. Why oh why would you select a guy with no capacity to play anywhere other than the ruck when you already have McEvoy? Both of these guys are borderline useless in the forward line. They have a combined total of 1 goal this year. This is not the next NN/Cox or Bellchambers/Ryder combination and I think everyone knew that 6 months ago. Did they pick him as a backup? Did they pick him thinking he'd overtake McEvoy? Did they think both guys could play forward? No idea what the plan was but it's not working. Then you throw in the fact that Brodie Grundy went at pick 18 and the overwhelming trend in the AFL is that no one wants to give up an early pick for a ruckman. Disaster.

Tom Lee - I question the wisdom in trading out of the first round to get a 22yo 3rd tall who has already failed in the AFL system once before. Physically, he's still very underdeveloped. That means two things; we need to give him some more time but also WTF has he been doing for the past 4 years? Serious question marks over him at this stage.

Trent Dennis-Lane - Only a pick in the 40's but did they need another small/medium forward? Christ no. At 24 years of age and out of the side atm he's in serious strife. Remember they ended up using pick 75. Rather than bringing in TDL, they could've given away 47 for a couple of picks in the 50's.

that is a very misleading way to break the trades down. looks more like this:
Goddard for Pick 13
Pick 12 for Lee, 25 and 46
Pick 13, 37, 57 for Hickey, 26 and 47
Pick 47 for Hyphen
Jamie Cripps and Pick 46 for 41 and 44

So effectively you can sum it up/merge it as follows:
Goddard (Pick 13), 37, 57 for Hickey, White, Hyphen
12 and Cripps for Lee, Wright, Murdoch, Saunders

where pick 12 and 13 could have netted the following players:
12: Jaksch
13: Lonergan
14: Corr
15: Garner
16: Thurlow
17: Simpson
18: Grundy
19: Kennedy
20: N/A
21: Broomhead
22: Hrovat
23: Towers
24: Paparone

37 and 57 netted Tanner Smith (didnt count broughton here because we didnt have the cap room for him anyway), Tim Sumner

46 and 47 netted Colledge, Membrey

i'd like to see your opinion on wright, saunders and murdoch as well

 

[Defacto]

Oh, yeah fair point then. Fremantle did well drafting Hannath who isn't bad. Even Richmond managed to not give up much for Maric (who is struggling currently admittedly, but still).

I think the issue was not so much that they traded for players, but they traded for the wrong players. Why did they go for a suns ruckman? Why not one of their midfielders? I just seemed strange that a club whose midfield was becoming a bit slow, who had struggled to develop their midfield youth, and had just lost Goddard went after a ruckman and a KPP. I'm still not convinced that someone like Jaksch was a better bet than Lee.

we needed a ruckmen. who would you have selected/traded for? remembering he needed to be far enough along in development to potentially ruck if mcevoy got injured

 

[tazaa]

I think Nicky Dal is the one they can get an early pick for. Richmond, Carlton or a WA side might make a play for him.