List Mgmt. State of the list

[Elite Crow]

My mate Marty reckons we’ve got a great list and there are no issues with it.

In reality, our list is short of 2 first rounders, 2 seconds and Tippett compensation which should have been a first.

That’s 5 players quality picks that would be 24-25 and in their prime.

Throw in losing Lever, Cameron and Gov in recent years. All of these players would be in our best 22.

Yes we have been compensated with decent picks but they take time.

This is going to hinder us for years to come.

As Tex and co move on we haven’t got ready to go replacements because they haven’t played or are still young, again I refer back to our lost picks and players, these guys should be filling these spots, not a 19 year old Fog, he should be played as part of his development sure but he’s not going to reproduce Tex’s best form for a few years yet.

The kids we have mostly can’t get a look in especially up forward as Lynch, Tex, Jenkins and Betts occupy 4 spots and despite declining aren’t going anywhere in a hurry. That’s 4 spots tied up.

We also prefer to recreate roles for senior players like Douglas and to get Mackay to 250 games.

Ogilvie has done a great job with what he’s had to work with, turning late picks into players and players that have left we’ve improved their value at the trade.

But Trigg, Reid and our off -field management by not retaining players have ****ed our club. We needed to have taken our chance in 2017, but the players and coaches ****ed it in the GF.

Anyway, not sure what the point of this thread is but I needed a rant.

 

[Bicks]

My mate Marty reckons we’ve got a great list and there are no issues with it.

In reality, our list is short of 2 first rounders, 2 seconds and Tippett compensation which should have been a first.

That’s 5 players quality picks that would be 24-25 and in their prime.

Throw in losing Lever, Cameron and Gov in recent years. All of these players would be in our best 22.

Yes we have been compensated with decent picks but they take time.

This is going to hinder us for years to come.

As Tex and co move on we haven’t got ready to go replacements because they haven’t played or are still young, again I refer back to our lost picks and players, these guys should be filling these spots, not a 19 year old Fog, he should be played as part of his development sure but he’s not going to reproduce Tex’s best form for a few years yet.

The kids we have mostly can’t get a look in especially up forward as Lynch, Tex, Jenkins and Betts occupy 4 spots and despite declining aren’t going anywhere in a hurry. That’s 4 spots tied up.

We also prefer to recreate roles for senior players like Douglas and to get Mackay to 250 games.

Ogilvie has done a great job with what he’s had to work with, turning late picks into players and players that have left we’ve improved their value at the trade.

But Trigg, Reid and our off -field management by not retaining players have ****** our club. We needed to have taken our chance in 2017, but the players and coaches ****** it in the GF.

Anyway, not sure what the point of this thread is but I needed a rant.

I seem to very recently recall Champion Data rating our list very highly. perhaps no.1 in the Comp?

The problem is more down to a lot of the highly rated players not performing thus far in 2019 highlighted by Gibbs, Tex, Betts, Sauce, Laird, Smith, JJ and to a lesser extent Lynch all way down on output. It's up to them as individuals to lift big time.

 

[Elite Crow]

I seem to very recently recall Champion Data rating our list very highly. perhaps no.1 in the Comp?

The problem is more down to a lot of the highly rated players not performing thus far in 2019 highlighted by Gibbs, Tex, Betts, Sauce, Laird, Smith, JJ and to a lesser extent Lynch all way down on output. It's up to them as individuals to lift big time.

So then relying on Champion Data stats taken over a previous 2 year period is pretty pointless when taking into account older players and the decline which sets in.

What Champion Data also doesn’t do is assess who the players are to replace your best 22.

 

[hey shorty]

So then relying on Champion Data stats taken over a previous 2 year period is pretty pointless when taking into account older players and the decline which sets in.

What Champion Data also doesn’t do is assess who the players are to replace your best 22.

They haven't been able to assess them at AFL level because we don't get to see them.

They do have in depth stats for the local comps still though.

 

[Bicks]

So then relying on Champion Data stats taken over a previous 2 year period is pretty pointless when taking into account older players and the decline which sets in.

What Champion Data also doesn’t do is assess who the players are to replace your best 22.

Tell that to all 18 AFL clubs, the AFL and the Media that rely on Champion Data for their stats etc....

I'm not arguing for or against Champion Data just stating a fact.

CD do the stats for the SANFL as well so I'd be surprised if that's not a factor in their list assessments.

 

[CrowinNT]

I think we recruit well. Perhaps we even develop well.
In stating the latter we seem to box players into roles that possibly does not extract their best attributes
We don’t really experiment or take risks

We are so conservative

The last day or so the idea of Murphy back makes sense. Let’s try it
How long has ROB had to wait?
Why didn’t Doedee get a good opportunity earlier?

Look at other teams in giving their youngsters a go

You look at AFC Women’s what we did with positional changes SLT is a classic

I think it is healthy to have a rant
We were sold a revouvinated AFC
A lot of our seniors have performed poorly and need to be given the verdict of poor performance

 

[hey shorty]

I think we recruit well. Perhaps we even develop well.
In stating the latter we seem to box players into roles that possibly does not extract their best attributes
We don’t really experiment or take risks

We are so conservative

The last day or so the idea of Murphy back makes sense. Let’s try it
How long has ROB had to wait?
Why didn’t Doedee get a good opportunity earlier?

Look at other teams in giving their youngsters a go

You look at AFC Women’s what we did with positional changes SLT is a classic

I think it is healthy to have a rant
We were sold a revouvinated AFC
A lot of our seniors have performed poorly and need to be given the verdict of poor performance

Doedee waited because we had Snake there, so that's fair enough.

Other than Clark, most of Geelongs newbies have spent a year or more in the VFL developing their craft. Sydney and Hawthorn do it too.

 

[ShadeyP]

My mate Marty reckons we’ve got a great list and there are no issues with it.

In reality, our list is short of 2 first rounders, 2 seconds and Tippett compensation which should have been a first.

That’s 5 players quality picks that would be 24-25 and in their prime.

Throw in losing Lever, Cameron and Gov in recent years. All of these players would be in our best 22.

Yes we have been compensated with decent picks but they take time.

This is going to hinder us for years to come.

As Tex and co move on we haven’t got ready to go replacements because they haven’t played or are still young, again I refer back to our lost picks and players, these guys should be filling these spots, not a 19 year old Fog, he should be played as part of his development sure but he’s not going to reproduce Tex’s best form for a few years yet.

The kids we have mostly can’t get a look in especially up forward as Lynch, Tex, Jenkins and Betts occupy 4 spots and despite declining aren’t going anywhere in a hurry. That’s 4 spots tied up.

We also prefer to recreate roles for senior players like Douglas and to get Mackay to 250 games.

Ogilvie has done a great job with what he’s had to work with, turning late picks into players and players that have left we’ve improved their value at the trade.

But Trigg, Reid and our off -field management by not retaining players have ****** our club. We needed to have taken our chance in 2017, but the players and coaches ****** it in the GF.

Anyway, not sure what the point of this thread is but I needed a rant.

Spot on ... the problem is we have retained the wrong players and not blooded the right players .
We are in a massive bind that this here brains trust is clueless to remedy .
Why ?? because if they saw it it would have been done already .
This is a slow rot to nowhere !!

 

[GrommoT]

Doedee waited because we had Snake there, so that's fair enough.

Other than Clark, most of Geelongs newbies have spent a year or more in the VFL developing their craft. Sydney and Hawthorn do it too.

I thought we had to wait for Doedee because he returned to footy from basketball just a few years before his draft year so had a bit of football craft learning to catch with his peers, and then got a few injuries when he could have debuted.

 

[Samcro24]

We are just so slow at list building and it’s getting worse now as we just refuse to develop certain players.

Spend a first round pick on a player but stick with the mediocre senior. Fog, Berg and Stengle rot in the 2s whole walker Jenkins and Eddie stink it up. Experience isn’t worth a crumpet if you cant run and get the ****ing ball.

It’s like we are scared to play inexperienced players. Not willing to suffer the short term pain for long term gain.

Look at the Geelong side last night. Rookies Atkins, Constable, Clark, Miers kicked nearly half their score. They won’t do it every week but geelong will be better off getting games into them.

When we contend we don’t do enough to get the missing piece.

05-06 if only we had a forward

12- if only we had a small forward

17- if only we had another midfielder

By the time we plug the hole another area of the ground goes to shit and needs rebuilding. See our forward line in 2019.

Ready made best 22 players leave then we replace them with picks. We rarely add players in the offseason that can walk into the side.

It’s very demoralising as you know we will hang on to these cooked players for grim death, while the young players sit in the sanfl and look for other opportunities once they bob up on other teams radars.

 

[Cap]

So despite the majority of scribes and as Bicks has pointed out, the only professional stats based analysis company suggesting we have a strong squad.

You geniuses think otherwise? You guys seem to just want to throw darts until something hits.

 

[Large 1]

I think we were justified in thinking that we could contend with this list but the drop-off of senior players who should be in their prime has shot that down.

It is time to build off last years draft, hopefully good picks with Carlton’s this year and trade out some senior players, and do a mini rebuild.

I think we still have and ok core with the crouch’s, laird, doedee etc to build a list that can contend in 3 to 5 years

 

[Cap]

My mate Marty reckons we’ve got a great list and there are no issues with it.

In reality, our list is short of 2 first rounders, 2 seconds and Tippett compensation which should have been a first.

That’s 5 players quality picks that would be 24-25 and in their prime.

Throw in losing Lever, Cameron and Gov in recent years. All of these players would be in our best 22.

Yes we have been compensated with decent picks but they take time.

This is going to hinder us for years to come.

As Tex and co move on we haven’t got ready to go replacements because they haven’t played or are still young, again I refer back to our lost picks and players, these guys should be filling these spots, not a 19 year old Fog, he should be played as part of his development sure but he’s not going to reproduce Tex’s best form for a few years yet.

The kids we have mostly can’t get a look in especially up forward as Lynch, Tex, Jenkins and Betts occupy 4 spots and despite declining aren’t going anywhere in a hurry. That’s 4 spots tied up.

We also prefer to recreate roles for senior players like Douglas and to get Mackay to 250 games.

Ogilvie has done a great job with what he’s had to work with, turning late picks into players and players that have left we’ve improved their value at the trade.

But Trigg, Reid and our off -field management by not retaining players have ****** our club. We needed to have taken our chance in 2017, but the players and coaches ****** it in the GF.

Anyway, not sure what the point of this thread is but I needed a rant.

So none of those 5 players were misses? None left? So which first 22 player drafted since didn't were draft? Which player didn't we play? Did we retain Sloane with these imaginary players imaginary wages?

One thing i tend to agree with. Coaching and admin (by virtue of hiring and firing and camps) has likely had a big influence in costing us a shot at this flag tilt.

 

[hey shorty]

I thought we had to wait for Doedee because he returned to footy from basketball just a few years before his draft year so had a bit of football craft learning to catch with his peers, and then got a few injuries when he could have debuted.

That too, but by the middle of his 2nd year he was good to go

 

[CrowinNT]

Doedee waited because we had Snake there, so that's fair enough.

No
That is what I am trying to point out
We boxed him in for a certain position
He had contested marking and athleticism we could have given him games
Of what I spotted on SAFL streaming
He had versatility

 

[Bicks]

No
That is what I am trying to point out
We boxed him in for a certain position
He had contested marking and athleticism we could have given him games
Of what I spotted on SAFL streaming
He had versatility

Well seeing as it was across half back for both the Geelong Falcons and Vic Country that Tommy stood out in his draft year and we drafted him off the back of that that would seem to be the correct development move to me..

 

[Interloperer]

McGovern and Cameron weren't only huge losses, but in my opinion impossible to replace in the current market. Lever was a big loss, but ultimately only a slightly better version of existing depth players, but the other two were disastrous.

One of my major gripes with Adelaide since Sanderson has been that they seem to understand the necessity of defensive/structural forwards, (often the famous "non-statistical role",) but seem to have no idea how to differentiate between a bad and good one of those or why you would pick a player in that position. But they essentially had two of those in the side for free with Cameron and McGovern, (thanks to lessening the need for Betts to be a target forward,) who were also players who could probably hold a position in the side on offensive output alone.

Bringing in players for that combination of roles deliberately is essentially impossible, it was only good luck that allowed this situation to develop naturally from within.

 

[hey shorty]

McGovern and Cameron weren't only huge losses, but in my opinion impossible to replace in the current market. Lever was a big loss, but ultimately only a slightly better version of existing depth players, but the other two were disastrous.

One of my major gripes with Adelaide since Sanderson has been that they seem to understand the necessity of defensive/structural forwards, (often the famous "non-statistical role",) but seem to have no idea how to differentiate between a bad and good one of those or why you would pick a player in that position. But they essentially had two of those in the side for free with Cameron and McGovern, (thanks to lessening the need for Betts to be a target forward,) who were also players who could probably hold a position in the side on offensive output alone.

Bringing in players for that combination of roles deliberately is essentially impossible, it was only good luck that allowed this situation to develop naturally from within.

Gov isn't and won't be a huge loss, Cameron is though.

 

[Eagleboy2011]

I think we recruit well. Perhaps we even develop well.
In stating the latter we seem to box players into roles that possibly does not extract their best attributes
We don’t really experiment or take risks

We are so conservative

The last day or so the idea of Murphy back makes sense. Let’s try it
How long has ROB had to wait?
Why didn’t Doedee get a good opportunity earlier?

Look at other teams in giving their youngsters a go

You look at AFC Women’s what we did with positional changes SLT is a classic

I think it is healthy to have a rant
We were sold a revouvinated AFC
A lot of our seniors have performed poorly and need to be given the verdict of poor performance

I disagree with line 1. Our recruiting is poor. Our best players have actually come off rookie list so they are speculative. We surrender our top picks easily. Take the 2017 draft. We gave up 2 rnd 1 picks for Gibbs,(if not for the Cameron deal we would not have had a pick until 42) gave up our 2nd rounder 2016 for Curtly Hampton. Last year lost a 1st round pick to Carlton on speculative deal. Our ability to bring younger players into the side is found wanting. When Phil Walsh started , his plan was to get as many games as possible into the kids. This plan is being scrapped.

 

[Elite Crow]

So despite the majority of scribes and as Bicks has pointed out, the only professional stats based analysis company suggesting we have a strong squad.

You geniuses think otherwise? You guys seem to just want to throw darts until something hits.

Think you’re missing the point a little, we are having to try and win a flag with a list that could be so much better, because of our off-field **** ups. No other club in the comp has had their chances hampered as badly as us.

Carlton were smashed years ago but they’ve had enough low picks to get themselves out of it.

Essendon who were worse than us lost less picks and because of the player suspensions, ended up with pick 1.

Plus we’ve struggled to retain our players.

You are living in fantasy land if you think this hasn’t hurt our list massively and our chances of replacing Tex and co.

Champion data is a stats company, they base this assessment over the last 2 years. In 2017 our forward line was elite, do you think it’s elite now or old in need of rejuvenation? Has Champion data taken this into account?

As for the scribes, how many had West Coast winning last years flag? Scribes get it wrong all the time, it’s just people’s opinion, hell even Kane is a scribe and he has shit for brains.

 

[hey shorty]

I disagree with line 1. Our recruiting is poor. Our best players have actually come off rookie list so they are speculative. We surrender our top picks easily. Take the 2017 draft. We gave up 2 rnd 1 picks for Gibbs,(if not for the Cameron deal we would not have had a pick until 42) gave up our 2nd rounder 2016 for Curtly Hampton. Last year lost a 1st round pick to Carlton on speculative deal. Our ability to bring younger players into the side is found wanting. When Phil Walsh started , his plan was to get as many games as possible into the kids. This plan is being scrapped.

It's not poor at all, we have the best recruiting team in the business. It's not up to them who plays.

 

[Interloperer]

Gov isn't and won't be a huge loss, Cameron is though.

Cameron is definitely a much better player.

But McGovern is still way better than anyone you can seriously expect to recruit as a 6th choice forward though, particular when he was actually attempting to play well.

 

[Elite Crow]

So none of those 5 players were misses? None left? So which first 22 player drafted since didn't were draft? Which player didn't we play? Did we retain Sloane with these imaginary players imaginary wages?

One thing i tend to agree with. Coaching and admin (by virtue of hiring and firing and camps) has likely had a big influence in costing us a shot at this flag tilt.

What? That’s a lot of rambling.

Okay, which first and second round picks has Ogilvie missed on so far? Start from there.

Players leaving? So you agree our retention is an issue and hurt us, you’ve even factored in some of the 5 leaving as well.

The rest are what you call list management decisions, all clubs go through it, the decent ones seems to manage just fine.

 

[Elite Crow]

Cameron is definitely a much better player.

But McGovern is still way better than anyone you can seriously expect to recruit as a 6th choice forward though, particular when he was actually attempting to play well.

Gov was just fine in 17.

 

[hey shorty]

Cameron is definitely a much better player.

But McGovern is still way better than anyone you can seriously expect to recruit as a 6th choice forward though, particular when he was actually attempting to play well.

I'd play Fogarty instead but we don't seem to want to.