Team Mgmt. Talk about the makeup of our list - midfield balance, height profile, endurance runners

[TheGrizz]

Recruiting needs

1a: Key forward
1b: Midfield balance (big bodies, inside leaning)
2. Rebounding half back (if McKenna leaves our depth is bare)
3. Key Defender to develop

 

[eth-dog]

Recruiting needs

1a: Key forward
1b: Midfield balance (big bodies, inside leaning)
2. Rebounding half back (if McKenna leaves our depth is bare)
3. Key Defender to develop

As far as 1a and 3 are concerned we have two academy players this year to slot in. If the key forward is mature age like I think you think I'm thinking we go after Ben Brown.

 

[brutus76]

ok coaches hat on mid season review list assessment:

Keep and sign up: Saady, Ham, Pigeodo, Phillips, Crauford, Mozzie, Towner, Cutler, Mingma, The Riddler, Hibbo, Gown

Out: Laverde, Joe, Begley, Mutch, Gleeson,

On the Fence: Smacks, Stewart

Smacks is only 3 months younger than Hurls

Trade: Franga (if he wants to go to SA) for Crows 2nd rounder, Raz (for a 3rd rounder), Zaka (for a box of beer and paying some of his $)

Retire: TBC

We have to use a 1st rounder this year. If we get another first for Joe keep it!


Play Hooker FF and Hurley CHF for end of their careers gives 2 years to find KPF ready to fill the void if we don't go for BEN BROWN (Jones/Gown/Eyre hopefully is one) and go with a young defence **** it!!!!!

Back 10: BZT, Irish, Ambrose, The Riddler, Saady, Redders, The Guelf, Johnno Jr +2

Middle 14: The Shield, Hepps, Parish, Zerrett, Dev, Pigeodo, Langers, Cutler, Hibbo(rookie list), Clarke, Mingma (rookie list), Ham +2

Front 10: Hooker, Hurls, Jones/Gown, Mozzie, Tippa, Towner (rookie list), Stringer, Cahill, +2

Rucks 4: Draper, Phillips, Crauford, Nick Bryan.

Additions: Sier (mid), Blakely (def), Fiorini (mid), Brand (NGA Academy KPD), Eyre (NGA Academy KPF) +4 others

 

[CBombers17]

If we are attempting to replicate Richmond 2017 then i think we need a lot more pace through the middle and forward.

It's actually interesting to see the Richmond evolution last night. They played more tempo football early and with a far more classic set-up in terms of tall forward line with Riewoldt, Lynch and Chol looking like a very dangerous combination. Add considerable class through the midfield in terms of ball use and decision making and the new version looks extremely potent (and was far better to watch)

Personally i think we will end up looking more like a Ross Lyon coached side than anything Richmond did in 2017. We lack the truly quick smalls around the ground to play high pressure football to the extent Richmond did. A couple of our better smalls look to have lost a yard as well (Smith and Fantasia). Add a few we have that others already lack the zip of Castagna, Baker, Bolton and Butler types and we are a very long way from replicating Richmond 2017 IMO.

 

[The Devils Advocate]

I really want Fiorini. The kid is a legit gun and can't get a game.

 

[Ambrosia]

If we are attempting to replicate Richmond 2017 then i think we need a lot more pace through the middle and forward.

It's actually interesting to see the Richmond evolution last night. They played more tempo football early and with a far more classic set-up in terms of tall forward line with Riewoldt, Lynch and Chol looking like a very dangerous combination. Add considerable class through the midfield in terms of ball use and decision making and the new version looks extremely potent (and was far better to watch)

Personally i think we will end up looking more like a Ross Lyon coached side than anything Richmond did in 2017. We lack the truly quick smalls around the ground to play high pressure football to the extent Richmond did. A couple of our better smalls look to have lost a yard as well (Smith and Fantasia). Add a few we have that others already lack the zip of Castagna, Baker, Bolton and Butler types and we are a very long way from replicating Richmond 2017 IMO.

I don’t think we lack speed if anything I’d say we’re faster than Richmond. Our biggest issue is that our players are no where near as well drilled defensively whether that be from our coaching staff not being as good teaching or the individual players themselves being incapable of learning.

Tippa for example is an excellent pressure player but has had to have been hid as deep forward because he has mental lapses when guarding his position of the zone setup. Stringer also struggles a lot with this.

Parish and Merrett also regularly get caught out ball watching and not covering the correct space. In comparison Richmond really only carry Martin who is dangerous enough for it not to matter.

A great example of far off we are from Richmond is the Seedsman goal on the weekend. It’s basic footy now that you have to come forward to defend and is taught at any decent suburban league club right through to VFL/AFL. All Hibberd had to do was not blindly trudge back to no mans land but instead push up to the dangerous player and Seedsman would have had to kick from 50m under pressure.

 

[BrunoV]

I don’t think we lack speed if anything I’d say we’re faster than Richmond. Our biggest issue is that our players are no where near as well drilled defensively whether that be from our coaching staff not being as good teaching or the individual players themselves being incapable of learning.

Tippa for example is an excellent pressure player but has had to have been hid as deep forward because he has mental lapses when guarding his position of the zone setup. Stringer also struggles a lot with this.

Parish and Merrett also regularly get caught out ball watching and not covering the correct space. In comparison Richmond really only carry Martin who is dangerous enough for it not to matter.

A great example of far off we are from Richmond is the Seedsman goal on the weekend. It’s basic footy now that you have to come forward to defend and is taught at any decent suburban league club right through to VFL/AFL. All Hibberd had to do was not blindly trudge back to no mans land but instead push up to the dangerous player and Seedsman would have had to kick from 50m under pressure.

Whether it's speed, running power or work rate, we are not getting the forward 50 to wing/half back transition from the likes of Fantasia, Smith, Snelling (as solid a little player as he is there is no way he's as quick as he was 8kg to 15kg ago when he did draft combine testing), Cahill that Richmond got from Castagna, Rioli, Butler, Bolton, etc.

McGrath is the only real two way runner in the midfield and he doesn't get into dangerous attacking position.

Most of our speed is at half back. Richmond did not rely on the build up from half back to anything near the same extent we have been.

We're now into the third season from 2017 and Richmond has been playing 2 key forward and 2 ruckmen most of the time (certainly as plan A for 2019 and 2020).

It seems like we're stuck in 2017 because we don't have the players to do evolve the plan.

 

[Chief Hopper]

Nice reading all this.
I think our club has picked players who supported Essendon growing up so they would stick with the club through the ASADA saga, that's it. Same as Brisbane looked for players that would likely wanted to stay in QLD when their team struggled to keep players for a while.

On the team makeup, we are well covered for speedy players. It seems that Essendon had the belief that we would go past most league teams as in the belief the game got more running in it, and that hasn't happened. Geelong and Hawthorn's ageing list still held out for a long time.

Essendon tried to match Richmonds team but underestimated how strong a mid they needed to match Dustin Martin. They really should try and get 2-3 young big mids in that Dustin role to fight for that position, same what we are doing in the ruck role.

 

[JayJ20]

From memory Daniher (obviously), Merrett (at least from when we drafted Jackson), Francis, Zaharakis, Laverde, Mutch, Heppell, Mozzie, Jones, Stringer, Ambrose, Snelling, Walla, Hird (see Daniher)

Not 100% on Stringer or Merrett (pre-Jackson) though.

I'm fairly certain Merrett (like Langford) grew up supporting Bulldogs. I also thought Walla was a Collingwood fan, but I don't know that one.

 

[eth-dog]

I'm fairly certain Merrett (like Langford) grew up supporting Bulldogs. I also thought Walla was a Collingwood fan, but I don't know that one.

Yeah, I just remember him saying he supported us when Jackson got drafted to us for obvious reasons

 

[Ambrosia]

Whether it's speed, running power or work rate, we are not getting the forward 50 to wing/half back transition from the likes of Fantasia, Smith, Snelling (as solid a little player as he is there is no way he's as quick as he was 8kg to 15kg ago when he did draft combine testing), Cahill that Richmond got from Castagna, Rioli, Butler, Bolton, etc.

McGrath is the only real two way runner in the midfield and he doesn't get into dangerous attacking position.

Most of our speed is at half back. Richmond did not rely on the build up from half back to anything near the same extent we have been.

We're now into the third season from 2017 and Richmond has been playing 2 key forward and 2 ruckmen most of the time (certainly as plan A for 2019 and 2020).

It seems like we're stuck in 2017 because we don't have the players to do evolve the plan.

Potentially right but I’d argue most of Richmond’s attack is a function of their defence and being the best in the league at setting up behind the ball. I don’t think we can properly judge if we’re too slow to pull it off until he we actually are defending the ground to a similar level of Richmond.

I also have a concern that Richmond style game plan doesn’t generate enough scores without a freak like Martin.

 

[JayJ20]

If we are attempting to replicate Richmond 2017 then i think we need a lot more pace through the middle and forward.

It's actually interesting to see the Richmond evolution last night. They played more tempo football early and with a far more classic set-up in terms of tall forward line with Riewoldt, Lynch and Chol looking like a very dangerous combination. Add considerable class through the midfield in terms of ball use and decision making and the new version looks extremely potent (and was far better to watch)

Personally i think we will end up looking more like a Ross Lyon coached side than anything Richmond did in 2017. We lack the truly quick smalls around the ground to play high pressure football to the extent Richmond did. A couple of our better smalls look to have lost a yard as well (Smith and Fantasia). Add a few we have that others already lack the zip of Castagna, Baker, Bolton and Butler types and we are a very long way from replicating Richmond 2017 IMO.

I don't think it's pace. We have plenty of pace all over the ground.

The significant difference between us and Richmond is application, skills and stamina.
It's almost as if Richmond players instinctively know where to handball to create a chain to goal and where to run when the opposition has the ball. How many times do you see us screw up a great passage only for it to go to the other end for an easy goal? When we turn it over, we spend more time chasing than defending. Richmond are so much better at defending without the ball.

McGrath is probably our best mid without the ball because he knows how to defend and how to position himself. Shiel and Snelling as well. Then we have players like Zaharakis, Stringer, Merrett, Langford, Fantasia, Laverde, McKernan, TBC, Parish (sometimes), D Smith nowadays and even Walla who do not position themselves defensively to stop the easy transition when we turn the ball over. You'd find most of these players chasing (or half-chasing) more than defending. That's too many players for us to carry. I was really impressed by Richmond's discipline defensively yesterday, especially players like Bolton, Baker, Pickett and Eggmolesse-Smith. Even Chol for a big man was decent.

Also, we can apply a high level of pressure like Richmond, but only for half a quarter in two or 3 quarters. Richmond players can keep going all day.

 

[CBombers17]

I don't think it's pace. We have plenty of pace all over the ground.

The significant difference between us and Richmond is application, skills and stamina.
It's almost as if Richmond players instinctively know where to handball to create a chain to goal and where to run when the opposition has the ball. How many times do you see us screw up a great passage only for it to go to the other end for an easy goal? When we turn it over, we spend more time chasing than defending. Richmond are so much better at defending without the ball.

McGrath is probably our best mid without the ball because he knows how to defend and how to position himself. Shiel and Snelling as well. Then we have players like Zaharakis, Stringer, Merrett, Langford, Fantasia, Laverde, McKernan, TBC, Parish (sometimes), D Smith nowadays and even Walla who do not position themselves defensively to stop the easy transition when we turn the ball over. You'd find most of these players chasing (or half-chasing) more than defending. That's too many players for us to carry. I was really impressed by Richmond's discipline defensively yesterday, especially players like Bolton, Baker, Pickett and Eggmolesse-Smith. Even Chol for a big man was decent.

Also, we can apply a high level of pressure like Richmond, but only for half a quarter in two or 3 quarters. Richmond players can keep going all day.

Just in terms of our pace. We overestimate this greatly because we have a couple of jets in the backline. Overall the rest of the side and it's decidedly average imo. If you look at many of Essendon players you put up in your example, they are either outright slow (TBC) or average by AFL standards plus one way runners - Parish, Zaka, Merrett, Smith, Laverde, McKernan none of them are quick (if they were once ok they aren't now).

Then look at the Richmond players you mention in comparison (Bolton, Baker, Pickett, Egmolesse-Smith and Chol). They are all quick - including Chol. One of the few players we have that share this type of profile is Ham. When you look accross the best 22's these comparisons don't get better.

Then we have some real plodders Hibberd, Hooker, Townsend (Hurley now). And one paced smalls we are adding and it's pretty clear to me that we are trying to implement Richmonds game plan with an inferior athletic profile across our group.

Then the other issues of coachability you mentioned that need to be factored in. We are 18 months into Rutten's defensive gameplan. How long should it take for these guys to get it? And then further - will this game plan with this list beat the 2020 Richmond (and say West coast) version?

Ultimately, are we going to win a premiership with this group implementing this gameplan? No. So what are we doing? Trying to win a final? If so Ok - maybe we win a final this year or next...

I think there's every possibility the club is on some Zombie course where nobody wants to face the facts about this list. Most things we needed to go right to have any real chance have gone badly (injuries for starters) and we are now patching up a failed project IMO. This year should have been about getting games into BZT, Francis and anyone else who can play. Instead we are holding on to the last days of Hooker, Hurley and co with several other 'top' players a risk to go home, leave or retire.

 

[Ambrosia]

CBombers17

Still think it’s not accurate. Richmond definitely do have more pace in their forward line than us but if Baker counts as quick and we have all of; Shiel, McKenna, Saad, Fantasia, McGrath, Ham and Tippa faster than he is.
Baker wasn’t top 20 in agility test or 20m sprint in his draft class and is definitely a similar level to your Merrett, Smith, Parish types.

Our forward line pace could be an issue without Fantasia but given Richmond play all of Riewoldt, Caddy, Lynch, Lambert there it’s hard to say they are prioritising speed.

 

[CBombers17]

CBombers17

Still think it’s not accurate. Richmond definitely do have more pace in their forward line than us but if Baker counts as quick and we have all of; Shiel, McKenna, Saad, Fantasia, McGrath, Ham and Tippa faster than he is.
Baker wasn’t top 20 in agility test or 20m sprint in his draft class and is definitely a similar level to your Merrett, Smith, Parish types.

Our forward line pace could be an issue without Fantasia but given Richmond play all of Riewoldt, Caddy, Lynch, Lambert there it’s hard to say they are prioritising speed.

If you want to compare Baker as a forward with where we are trying to head in terms of list strategy and pick cost then i would compare to Cahill's selection. As a mid i would compare him to Ham.

Compared to Cahill - Baker was cheaper, is quicker, and can play forward, back or wing. If you don't have either speed or marking ability then you have every failed small forward at Essendon for 20 years.

Compared to Ham - Overall Ham has more upside than Baker IMO because he can take a contested mark - I've previously mentioned i think Ham is the right type in another post. Mostly because has the attributes to make it as a smaller bodied player in the AFL Speed and endurance (skills ok) as soon as i saw him take a contested overhead mark he ticked all boxes to make it to 100 games IMO.

 

[Ambrosia]

If you want to compare Baker as a forward with where we are trying to head in terms of list strategy and pick cost then i would compare to Cahill's selection. As a mid i would compare him to Ham.

Compared to Cahill - Baker was cheaper, is quicker, and can play forward, back or wing. If you don't have either speed or marking ability then you have every failed small forward at Essendon for 20 years.

Compared to Ham - Overall Ham has more upside than Baker IMO because he can take a contested mark - I've previously mentioned i think Ham is the right type in another post. Mostly because has the attributes to make it as a smaller bodied player in the AFL Speed and endurance (skills ok) as soon as i saw him take a contested overhead mark he ticked all boxes to make it to 100 games IMO.

Yeah I’m not high on Cahill and do worry about his lack of pace. I don’t think there is meaningful difference between rookie draft picks and picks >40 to bring up cost though.

I really don’t think marking for sub 185cm players, especially for a non small forward, is a skill that moves the needle too much in either direction.

 

[CBombers17]

Yeah I’m not high on Cahill and do worry about his lack of pace. I don’t think there is meaningful difference between rookie draft picks and picks >40 to bring up cost though.

I really don’t think marking for sub 185cm players, especially for a non small forward, is a skill that moves the needle too much in either direction.

All factors add up in terms of list strategy IMO - including one ive left out and that's Bakers ability to play as a small defender.

Baker is no star but as a utility he is a player that means you can invest picks/spots elsewhere. Really a Baker at Essendon would mean no need for Cahill or Johnson.

I'd put up Snelling and Ham as being good decisions by the club and others as us stuffing up by trying to imitiate Richmond with the wrong type of players.

 

[Ambrosia]

All factors add up in terms of list strategy IMO - including one ive left out and that's Bakers ability to play as a small defender.

Baker is no star but as a utility he is a player that means you can invest picks/spots elsewhere. Really a Baker at Essendon would mean no need for Cahill or Johnson.

I'd put up Snelling and Ham as being good decisions by the club and others as us stuffing up by trying to imitiate Richmond with the wrong type of players.

I’d argue Baker is borderline AFL standard as a forward. I don’t think he’s a true utility he’s a defender who was drafted as a forward.

 

[eth-dog]

Baker is your classic looks better because he plays for a great team type. Much like Prismall or Duryea of years gone by

 

[BrunoV]

Baker's a classic coaches' pet.

Mediocre player who gets burned badly overhead but plays a tailor made role the net value of which would be close to negative. He can't really defend and doesn't but he's used in a sweeping role that an A grade amateur could play in that Richmond side (with their being no noticeable difference).

He does play the role, though.

 

[JayJ20]

Just in terms of our pace. We overestimate this greatly because we have a couple of jets in the backline. Overall the rest of the side and it's decidedly average imo. If you look at many of Essendon players you put up in your example, they are either outright slow (TBC) or average by AFL standards plus one way runners - Parish, Zaka, Merrett, Smith, Laverde, McKernan none of them are quick (if they were once ok they aren't now).

Then look at the Richmond players you mention in comparison (Bolton, Baker, Pickett, Egmolesse-Smith and Chol). They are all quick - including Chol. One of the few players we have that share this type of profile is Ham. When you look accross the best 22's these comparisons don't get better.

Then we have some real plodders Hibberd, Hooker, Townsend (Hurley now). And one paced smalls we are adding and it's pretty clear to me that we are trying to implement Richmonds game plan with an inferior athletic profile across our group.

Then the other issues of coachability you mentioned that need to be factored in. We are 18 months into Rutten's defensive gameplan. How long should it take for these guys to get it? And then further - will this game plan with this list beat the 2020 Richmond (and say West coast) version?

Ultimately, are we going to win a premiership with this group implementing this gameplan? No. So what are we doing? Trying to win a final? If so Ok - maybe we win a final this year or next...

I think there's every possibility the club is on some Zombie course where nobody wants to face the facts about this list. Most things we needed to go right to have any real chance have gone badly (injuries for starters) and we are now patching up a failed project IMO. This year should have been about getting games into BZT, Francis and anyone else who can play. Instead we are holding on to the last days of Hooker, Hurley and co with several other 'top' players a risk to go home, leave or retire.

I 100% agree with the bolded. I agree with your general assessment except for a few points. A lot of the players I mentioned feature heavily in our best 22. Recruiting quicker players and drastically turning over the list isn't the answer because someone is going to dismantle Richmond's gameplan (Eagles). Richmond themselves are moving away from their own gameplan. I actually think that we need to put more emphasis on other aspects of the game and use speed as a secondary weapon. Shiel, Fantasia, Merrett, Ham, Walla, Saad, McKenna, Redman and even Stringer on the burst provide enough speed.

You bring up a good point regarding our gameplan, its compatibility to our list and our premiership chances. I think too many of our players don't instinctively defend for a premiership to be realistic with this gameplan. Athletic profile is probably also another concern. Richmond have the players capable of smashing teams based on pressure and team defence alone. Our pressure was elite vs Adelaide yet we only scraped by. I still think that this list is capable of winning a premiership in other ways. And that's to focus on winning the ball and winning clearances. Our pressure game should be a secondary feature of our game.

Richmond relied on pressure, forcing turnovers, locking the ball inside 50 and aerobic capacity to win games. They're generally always bottom 4 for clearance differentials + contested possession differentials because they don't need to rely on winning their own ball to win games. There's no way our list is capable of that. Running both ways and defending isn't always about speed. A relatively quick person like Merrett is also probably one of our worst defensive mids. Zaharakis in his prime was also quick and didn't defend.

Instead of recruiting faster players, I'd actually go the other way and recruit bigger bodied inside mids so that we spend less time chasing and more time dictating games.

 

[Yoda_]

Why do we have to be like Richmond?

Why can’t we be Essendon and win games through our own design? I mean, list wise we are nothing like Richmond bar a few similar body types and shapes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[GUMBLETRON]

Why can’t we be Essendon and win games through our own design?

That much is self-evident isn't it?

 

[CBombers17]

.

I 100% agree with the bolded. I agree with your general assessment except for a few points. A lot of the players I mentioned feature heavily in our best 22. Recruiting quicker players and drastically turning over the list isn't the answer because someone is going to dismantle Richmond's gameplan (Eagles). Richmond themselves are moving away from their own gameplan. I actually think that we need to put more emphasis on other aspects of the game and use speed as a secondary weapon. Shiel, Fantasia, Merrett, Ham, Walla, Saad, McKenna, Redman and even Stringer on the burst provide enough speed.

You bring up a good point regarding our gameplan, its compatibility to our list and our premiership chances. I think too many of our players don't instinctively defend for a premiership to be realistic with this gameplan. Athletic profile is probably also another concern. Richmond have the players capable of smashing teams based on pressure and team defence alone. Our pressure was elite vs Adelaide yet we only scraped by. I still think that this list is capable of winning a premiership in other ways. And that's to focus on winning the ball and winning clearances. Our pressure game should be a secondary feature of our game.

Richmond relied on pressure, forcing turnovers, locking the ball inside 50 and aerobic capacity to win games. They're generally always bottom 4 for clearance differentials + contested possession differentials because they don't need to rely on winning their own ball to win games. There's no way our list is capable of that. Running both ways and defending isn't always about speed. A relatively quick person like Merrett is also probably one of our worst defensive mids. Zaharakis in his prime was also quick and didn't defend.

Instead of recruiting faster players, I'd actually go the other way and recruit bigger bodied inside mids so that we spend less time chasing and more time dictating games.

Absolutely. It's going to be very interesting to see how the rest of this season plays out - starting tomorrow night.

I get the feeling a few senior players could find themselves under the spotlight. I also think selection will start to tell us a bit about what they are planning for the future too. Especially if we start to lose games.

 

[Kakkle]

.
Absolutely. It's going to be very interesting to see how the rest of this season plays out - starting tomorrow night.

I get the feeling a few senior players could find themselves under the spotlight. I also think selection will start to tell us a bit about what they are planning for the future too. Especially if we start to lose games.

Hahahahahaha, yeah, right!