Mega Thread The Adam Goodes Megathread - Now with Added Poll!

[threesixpio]

not quite. i could agree the booing increased after any of the incidents you mentioned as it's not central to my argument. we depart when racism non sequitur occurs. there hasn't even been a good inductive argument been made.

the use of booing volume as proof of anything is stupid. if you can't even show a increase in participation or volume by measurement you got nothing. all you've got is this past weekend seemed louder than ever before. people didn't like it and started squirming. then the pathetic, reductionist, simplistic, and sanctimonious explanations started. some of the defences have seemed underwhelming to you but what do you expect? the argument is so base and so unsophisticated that it's never had to reach any great heights.

The fact Goodes said this means he likely used to get booed for footy related reasons predominantly. He's been playing for a long time and would have copped plenty of boos and seen a number of other players being booed. Booing a footy player/cricket player/whatever is part of the game.

The fact he's upset about the booing now is likely because he thinks it's not predominantly footy related anymore as the booing has increased since he was awarded AOTY and pointed at the girl.

He likely thinks the increase in booing is related to how he has drawn attention to issues of racism. And to argue it doesn't have anything to do with that now (no not everyone who boos) is deluded.

Your quotation doesn't really prove the point you want to make.

Read my post

 

[dispute]

It's your choice to boo. But you can easily differentiate yourself from racists by choosing not to boo.

For your analogy to make sense, you'd have to be willing to argue that Muslims should simply stop being Muslims if they want to disassociate themselves from the terrorists who are Muslim.

So if people stop booing him. Then the racists stop too? Then we are caught in some weird limbo where we can't boo him without being branded a racist. When can people start booing him again?

Are other aboriginals allowed to come forward and claim that the boo's they receive are racist in nature? Are we then able to question them or we should also stop booing them?

 

[hardon]

For your analogy to make sense, you'd have to be willing to argue that Muslims should simply stop being Muslims if they want to disassociate themselves from the terrorists who are Muslim.

"...argue that booers should simply stop being booers if they want to disassociate themselves from the racists who are booers."

ok, to me it looks like you are doing exactly that!?!

 

[Docker Alyssa]

Jedi, i didn't ignore it, i just didn't speak to it.

you can think he's divisive and still agree with everything he says. if you hold to a particular position or philosophy you can choose to have people advocate for you, or not, depending on whether you think they'll represent you well. just like you select your advocates in court.

did this speak to your point well enough?

I applaud for you it, but don't make too much sense. These guys can't recognise it.

I've said 101 times I would prefer other leaders be held up, as I personally dislike Adam for some of the reasons in the poll definitely not racism, and so I support those who similarly dislike Adam for the person he is, not the race, which I'm sure is the majority who wish to express that with the football tradition of booing an opposition player. That is apparently tantamount to me saying "sit down black man" (see Bold) or supporting racism.

I've loved Adam Goodes as a player along the journey, when he's not being the maligned player with incidents. Just like I loved Sam Mitchell for most of his career until he's started becoming maligned for the kneeing and little bit of bad sportsmanship.

Mental Gymnastics to ensue how they reconcile a counter argument.

 

[nineteen eighty]

Might want to re-read my comments in their entirety mate. Im well aware of our village simpleton. Others not so much.

Sorry Hahn misread your comments. Was shooting from the hip earlier in rapid fire.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I do not agree with this statement for reasons I've gone over before. Calling a "black man" as you put it, an ape, can be racist; and most likely it will be perceived and interpreted as racist; but that does not mean the comment has any relation to race, which for me plays a pretty major role in whether or not something is indeed racist.

Of course there is room for interpretation.

But if you and I live in the real world, we are aware of the ways this slur has been used to demean black men. The word doesn't exist in a vaccuum. It comes with certain overtones attached – especially when used in a derogatory way.

In light of that, isn't it better to make the case that people probably shouldn't call black footballers apes? Instead of tap dancing around it to argue that people should actually be allowed to do that – provided 'they don't intend to be racist'?

If you don't like Goodes, you can call him all kinds of nasty names. I reckon we've got enough options. Is it really too much to ask that people leave out the ones with established racial implications?

What is the decent position in this?

On the other hand, I must say of all the derogatory remarks I've heard used in reference to Indigenous people, I have never heard ape used. So for me, I definitely have some room to move in my definitions

Why do you think they do monkey chants and throw bananas at black footballers in some parts of Europe?

I've referred before to the word nei ge in Mandarin Chinese. It's a filler word that sounds identical to the "N" word. More than one newly arrived African American to Chinese lands has had to double take on their perceptions and instincts when first encountering this word. Words at their base are just noises to which we ascribe definition and from definition we derive meaning and interpretation though application. No noise is inherently racist until run though this process.

That's interesting and I take your point.

But see above. I agree 100 per cent with your line about ascribing definition, deriving meaning and interpretation. You'll note that I never said the word 'ape' is inherently racist. Rather, it's become a slur and taken on racist connotations through the way it has been used – through its application as a way to demean black men.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Do you think it is the correct position though?

What-ever it was, it was most certainly ignorant.

I think Jetta has brought the game into disrepute with that celebration tonight , continuing to antagonize supporters with political statements

The AFL has made a rod for it's own back....It has lost control & perspective!

 

[romeohwho]

I don't think it's a "questionable position" to give a young kid the benefit of the doubt.

She said sorry to Goodes, but said she wasn't being racist.

She used a generic abusive term that is rarely, if ever used as a racist term of abuse. Historically, maybe. Overseas, perhaps. But who says "ape" in this day and age here in Australia ? It's drawing a long bow to think a young girl would single out a indigenous footballer and use the word "ape" as a racist epithet. Far more likely, IMO, for a 13yo kid to call a big man an ape in a generic, non-racist way.

I think it's laughable that people refuse to consider this, but they dismiss her denials and supported Goodesy 100% with his "face of racism" speech.

She was a kid, for f**k's sake. That didn't matter to people. She became an object.

Have almost no doubts that we would be having this same conversation if the girl had been a 30 year old male. Just not buying it.
And perhaps instead of focussing on the perpetrator, you might like to consider how come anyone in our society would use such a term of abuse, how come she didn't know its racist, how come she heard the term from someone? How come a player can be racially abused, but he is the bad guy here, Give it a spell.
Goodes was respectful, understanding and conciliatory to the girl the following day. She learned the implications of that word for an indigenous person and was regretful=great outcome. Get over it for crying out loud.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

"You can use a racist slur without necessarily intending to vilify. That doesn't mean the slur isn't objectionable."

But I haven't used a racist slur.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I'm not sure why you need to turn that into a strawman when we actually pretty much agree.

I don't think I've done that.

I said it can certainly be perceived as racist. Obviously it can have a racial implication, and can certainly be used as racial abuse. Goodes was clearly distressed by it, and understandably so.

However, if she didn't understand that implication, and used the word in its everyday meaning, then it is inapt to call it "racist" if it lacked the motivation or intention associated with that. That's the baggage which comes with that label - it is tagging the individual with that horrible mentality. Calling her words "racist" is not providing the "benefit of the doubt".

That doesn't mean "there's nothing wrong with the comment", and I said it's something people should be educated about and discouraged from doing (hardly "bent over backwards" to defend it), because it can be very hurtful regardless of the intention.

Teach her and everyone else that it's potentially hurtful and offensive, by all means (though it was mishandled by security and media - it should have been about the comment, not the individual, in this case), but labelling it racist in this situation is inapt.

The meaning of words matters, whether "ape" or "racist".

I am happy to concede whatever semantic point you are hoping to make here.

 

[Citrus22]

As joked about before - racists eat pies ... if you eat pies you'll be seen as possibly being racist.

I wouldn't even call it reasoning myself. I would call it cajoling by threat of association.

Eating a pie is not an action that could ever be seen as having racial intent. It's another flawed analogy.

 

[armpit]

So if people stop booing him. Then the racists stop too? Then we are caught in some weird limbo where we can't boo him without being branded a racist. When can people start booing him again?

Are other aboriginals allowed to come forward and claim that the boo's they receive are racist in nature? Are we then able to question them or we should also stop booing them?

A ridiculous situation has been created here, but let's not forget it was the stupid booing of the west coast crowd that was the catalyst.

 

[Footy Is The Win]

But I haven't used a racist slur.

Not intentionally, but...

 

[DrEvil_]

I do not agree with this statement for reasons I've gone over before. Calling a "black man" as you put it, an ape, can be racist; and most likely it will be perceived and interpreted as racist; but that does not mean the comment has any relation to race, which for me plays a pretty major role in whether or not something is indeed racist. Calling a football player an ape is not new. I have heard it before. On the other hand, I must say of all the derogatory remarks I've heard used in reference to Indigenous people, I have never heard ape used. So for me, I definitely have some room to move in my definitions.

I've referred before to the word nei ge in Mandarin Chinese. It's a filler word that sounds identical to the "N" word. More than one newly arrived African American to Chinese lands has had to double take on their perceptions and instincts when first encountering this word. Words at their base are just noises to which we ascribe definition and from definition we derive meaning and interpretation though application. No noise is inherently racist until run though this process.

 

[armpit]

Your stupid apish booing.

 

[Milanista28]

7th Minute mark of the 3rd @ etihad tomorrow I will Boo in honor of the biggest sook Australia has ever seen.

 

[armpit]

I'm not being racist when I say that. It's more a north/ south of the river thing.

 

[Pies lad]

7th Minute mark of the 3rd @ etihad tomorrow I will Boo in honor of the biggest sook Australia has ever seen.

Great call, in the name of free speech all Australians should boo at the 7 minute mark of each quarte In every game until Goodes apologises for his actionsr. Enough is enough, I have black friends myself and I'm sick of being labeled a racist because of this flog

 

[hardon]

The fact he's upset about the booing now is likely because he thinks it's not predominantly footy related anymore as the booing has increased since he was awarded AOTY and pointed at the girl.

no argument.

He likely thinks the increase in booing is related to how he has drawn attention to issues of racism...

he could think it all he wants but it's a non sequitur. you can bring issues of race to the fore, AND STUFF IT UP AND COME OUT LOOKING LIKE A TOOL. you can appear to be a tool to aborigines and 'whites' alike even after bringing up issues of race. and have people boo you because they just think you are a tool and they wouldn't have to be racists to do it.

And to argue it doesn't have anything to do with that now (no not everyone who boos) is deluded.

ok. i think i get it now. i thought you were trying to make a stepwise, inductive argument to link booing with racism. i see you didn't. you didn't mention racism, nor arrive at it. my apologies if you didn't explicitly mention it or imply it. sincerely, my bad.

 

[armpit]

I don't think I've done that.

I am happy to concede whatever semantic point you are hoping to make here.

Never concede. Get that imaginary spear throwing thing happening. Bring it on.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

So if people stop booing him. Then the racists stop too?

Probably not.

But they would be denied cover for their racism. And they won't have other people making their excuses for them.

Let the racists boo. But make sure they out themselves by doing so. Don't allow them to blend in and claim 'it's not racist'.

Then we are caught in some weird limbo where we can't boo him without being branded a racist. When can people start booing him again?

Why is it so important that you boo him?

Is it going to ruin your day at the footy if you don't boo Goodes every time he touches the ball?

Are other aboriginals allowed to come forward and claim that the boo's they receive are racist in nature? Are we then able to question them or we should also stop booing them?

Firstly, I'd suggest that Goodes is unique among aboriginal players in his willingness to engage and in some ways be a figurehead for the fight against racism.

So when people say there is a racial subtext to some of the relentless booing, it's probably not unreasonable.

But if Josh Hill or Lance Franklin or whoever else breaks someone's jaw behind play and the crowd boos as a result, then that's fair enough.

Secondly, do we really need to tap dance around all this just so people can justify their compulsion to boo a player? Is that really the most important thing at stake here?

Again, no one can stop a crowd booing any player – for racist reasons or non-racist reasons. But why is it so important for fans to do it? In this situation, wouldn't it be better if people just showed some restraint?

 

[psychobrown]

Yes, it's at an interesting stage now. I can't remember if I've ever heard a player abused with such universal vitriol, maybe Stevie Milne at some venues, but I could never tell over my own raucous booing. I do agree it's the Hurricane Katrina effect, the racial undertone within a portion of the crowds are being shielded by the greater bulk of the storm (as among the WCE supporters at that game). We have seen on this forum over this week that a few supremacists and Vanguard News Network posters slipped their way in slyly before crawling away on their bellies, so there is no doubt many undesirables are using the situation to leverage agendas that otherwise would stand out too prominently. Mob mentality is very strong and influential, I still remember the joyousness of joining in the 'rayyypiisssttt' chants when Milney took the field, and sometimes you forget the essence of the boo. I would have voted on the poll but the humiliation of that 13 year old bogan girl wasn't on there, however, that alone is not enough to keep a man on the gallows for 2 years. I think Adam is a guy with a strong sense of self and deep engagement with his identity, so becoming THE divisive figure in a game where rapists, wife-beaters and criminals run rampant might have got to him. Probably the WCE game just demonstrated the fickleness of the fantard, one week they are sympathising with a team for the tragic ice-related death of a man, the next they are booing someone vigorously for being black. He's not an inherently bad person, just at the centre of a series of unfortunate actions and reactions that have marred the latter stages of his decorated career, the spear-chucking thing seemed like a good idea at the time, but it backfired bigtime, much like "How Your Pussy Works" did for Brian McKnight.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

"...argue that booers should simply stop being booers if they want to disassociate themselves from the racists who are booers."

ok, to me it looks like you are doing exactly that!?!

This makes no sense.

You tried to draw an analogy between my argument about booers disassociating themselves from racists and law-abiding Muslims disassociating themselves from Muslim terrorists.

The reason that analogy doesn't work is because the people booing can simply stop booing, but it's unfair to ask Muslims to simply stop being Muslims. For your analogy to hold, you'd have to be willing to argue that these requests are equally reasonable. They're not.

Can I ask, honestly, what position are you actually trying to defend?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Not intentionally, but...

Not at all. I haven't called anyone a monkey.

Stop being silly.

 

[subaru]

So where was the crowd abuse exactly?

There was no need for anyone to get "outraged "
My point was the AFL did not like, did not want crowd reaction to it , and it was not repeated.