The beginning of the end of Australia as a cricketing superpower.

[frankrizzo]

And this game was the opposite of what we usually say in australia, people would point out if pakistan had taken their catches they might have won a game or even two but same thing this match windies fielded well and we dropped catches and it cost us the test.

 

[Jim Prideaux]

Silly thread, we just lost to a team that was better over the course of the match, and came up against one of the best test spells ever seen.

We have players out of form, perhaps some complacency too. The NZ series will be interesting, if we get rolled 2-0 then questions need to be asked.

We had a flat summer really, team is still very very good and has achieved a lot.

Fair play to the Windies, they were simply better.

Agree with this. Some outstanding bowling, some poor shots and some dropped catches and we still only just lost, it happens, it happened to India recently, it happens to all sides.

I’m not sure the batting order is quite right, but I don’t have a solution that doesn’t come with it’s own problems, one idea for our top - middle is this;

Smith
Ussie
Head
Green
Labs
Marsh
Carey

I think having Head, Marsh, Carey all next to each other and tge more circumspect batters all together is creating an imbalance. Would this help us, maybe, I don’t really know.

 

[mcgarnacle]

As pointed out, the issue is in the batting, and winning tests and ODI's with such a great bowling attack is masking the problems with the batting order. Bowling wins matches. We've got the best bowling attack ever and it did it's job again all summer and in the lost test.

However, while the team wins, little will change. You get the sweet hit of a win, so you go back to that, no matter how it was achieved. Lose a few tests and then the selectors will be forced to have a look at the line-up.

With the bowlers getting on, there could be a bit of inexperience entering the line-up which may affect the ability to pick up wickets and then the glaring problems with batting will be exposed. Could be too late. Some blooding now is in order. Have a look at Spencer Johnson, Jye Richardson, and the next best spinner in NZ. Give them a taste. I know it's not the way to hand out caps to players who aren't the best, but a longer term view may need to be taken here.

 

[Westend]

Agree with this. Some outstanding bowling, some poor shots and some dropped catches and we still only just lost, it happens, it happened to India recently, it happens to all sides.

I’m not sure the batting order is quite right, but I don’t have a solution that doesn’t come with it’s own problems, one idea for our top - middle is this;

Smith
Ussie
Head
Green
Labs
Marsh
Carey

I think having Head, Marsh, Carey all next to each other and tge more circumspect batters all together is creating an imbalance. Would this help us, maybe, I don’t really know.

Yeah and this was when the discussion regarding the replacement opener was brought up I was advocating for Head to open and green to go 5 with smith 4 ...I think this order

Head
Usman
Marnus
Smith
Green
Mitch
Carey

Provides a lot more flexibility and spaces the stroke makers of Head Marsh Carey in between the more traditional batters of ussie Smith and green .

Also the game is changing we are seeing that and cannot deny the fact that bazball is heaving a strong effect on the test game....having a dasher at the top for me is the way to go

Also what happens when we go the the sub continent? ...Head at the top has proven he bats better there than in the middle order

 

[BACCS]

As pointed out, the issue is in the batting, and winning tests and ODI's with such a great bowling attack is masking the problems with the batting order. Bowling wins matches. We've got the best bowling attack ever and it did it's job again all summer and in the lost test.

However, while the team wins, little will change. You get the sweet hit of a win, so you go back to that, no matter how it was achieved. Lose a few tests and then the selectors will be forced to have a look at the line-up.

With the bowlers getting on, there could be a bit of inexperience entering the line-up which may affect the ability to pick up wickets and then the glaring problems with batting will be exposed. Could be too late. Some blooding now is in order. Have a look at Spencer Johnson, Jye Richardson, and the next best spinner in NZ. Give them a taste. I know it's not the way to hand out caps to players who aren't the best, but a longer term view may need to be taken here.

We didn't win the ODI WC because of our bowling attack, our top order made mountains of runs. Warner, Head, Maxwell and Marsh all made multiple 100s.

Zampa carried our bowling attack for a large part of the tournament, but the fast bowlers executed when it mattered during the finals.

 

[frankrizzo]

As pointed out, the issue is in the batting, and winning tests and ODI's with such a great bowling attack is masking the problems with the batting order. Bowling wins matches. We've got the best bowling attack ever and it did it's job again all summer and in the lost test.

However, while the team wins, little will change. You get the sweet hit of a win, so you go back to that, no matter how it was achieved. Lose a few tests and then the selectors will be forced to have a look at the line-up.

With the bowlers getting on, there could be a bit of inexperience entering the line-up which may affect the ability to pick up wickets and then the glaring problems with batting will be exposed. Could be too late. Some blooding now is in order. Have a look at Spencer Johnson, Jye Richardson, and the next best spinner in NZ. Give them a taste. I know it's not the way to hand out caps to players who aren't the best, but a longer term view may need to be taken here.

So our bowlers are covering up the batting issues so your idea to fix that is rest bowlers who win us matches? how does that fix anything? also everybody know richardson is test quality but he is also made of glass its on him to prove he can stay fit for 12-18 months if he wants to play tests

 

[Jim Prideaux]

Yeah and this was when the discussion regarding the replacement opener was brought up I was advocating for Head to open and green to go 5 with smith 4 ...I think this order

Head
Usman
Marnus
Smith
Green
Mitch
Carey

Provides a lot more flexibility and spaces the stroke makers of Head Marsh Carey in between the more traditional batters of ussie Smith and green .

Also the game is changing we are seeing that and cannot deny the fact that bazball is heaving a strong effect on the test game....having a dasher at the top for me is the way to go

Also what happens when we go the the sub continent? ...Head at the top has proven he bats better there than in the middle order

Don’t mind that either, and was one of the other options I was contemplating in the old noggin. I don’t mind having a slow and steady opening partnership if we have a dynamic 3/4 but I also don’t mind having a dynamic opener with a steady 3, I just don’t think we can roll with steady 1,2,3 and a 4 still finding his feet, it puts 5,6,7 in an awkward position.

 

[Jim Prideaux]

As pointed out, the issue is in the batting, and winning tests and ODI's with such a great bowling attack is masking the problems with the batting order. Bowling wins matches. We've got the best bowling attack ever and it did it's job again all summer and in the lost test.

However, while the team wins, little will change. You get the sweet hit of a win, so you go back to that, no matter how it was achieved. Lose a few tests and then the selectors will be forced to have a look at the line-up.

With the bowlers getting on, there could be a bit of inexperience entering the line-up which may affect the ability to pick up wickets and then the glaring problems with batting will be exposed. Could be too late. Some blooding now is in order. Have a look at Spencer Johnson, Jye Richardson, and the next best spinner in NZ. Give them a taste. I know it's not the way to hand out caps to players who aren't the best, but a longer term view may need to be taken here.

I’d love Jhye in the team but he needs to spend more time on the park. I think Morris should be the next cab off the rank, I don’t think we need wholesale bowling changes, try one or two across a few matches

 

[Scorpus]

Been saying it since the 2nd Ashes test. Midway through that I knew we were cooked. I was mocked mercilessly. This is vindication.

Batting looks very weak without Warner. He is a huge loss.

Gutted.

And you were as wrong then as you are now.

A team being cooked going on to retain the Ashes and win the Test Championship? And win 4/5 tests at home? Laughable

 

[greyhound punter]

And you were as wrong then as you are now.

A team being cooked going on to retain the Ashes and win the Test Championship? And win 4/5 tests at home? Laughable

Our bowlers have lost a yard of pace. Still more than capable of taking 20 wickets when conditions suit....but how many times have we had teams on the rack after a new ball burst only for them to rally and get a solid score.

Huge difference between 143 km and 133 km. Tail enders aren't keen to get behind the line at 143; totally different scenario at 133 km.

Opposition teams scoring from number 5 to 11 has hurt us massively over the last 12 months.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Certainly our batting lineup is in some sort of form slump.

Khawaja has been ever consistent, but I'd argue he's the only one.

Smith/Labs have been in all sorts for a long time. This is the big problem because the more aggressive guys only get to shine when one of these guys can build a decent platform to take risks.

Head has certainly played well in big games but him/Marsh/Carey are all score-quick types so aren't suited to save an innings if our top 4 can't have at least one decent partnership.

Green IMO will get there, but for now I'd rather Cummins as a batsman than him.

We have an all time bowling group together, but this batting lineup needs to find form or undergo changes. Personally I'd bring in a proper opener and drop Green or Marsh.

 

[big_e]

Been saying it since the 2nd Ashes test. Midway through that I knew we were cooked. I was mocked mercilessly. This is vindication.

Batting looks very weak without Warner. He is a huge loss.

Gutted.

You weren't mocked for your opinion. You were mocked for prematurely bragging about winning a bet that you ended up losing.

 

[Voice of the G]

Shocking week for Australian cricket. Topped off by England beating India from what is almost always a losing position anywhere, let alone in India.

Marnus, Head, Marsh and Green are our weak links - i don't like that middle order at all.

Marnus

Has had a shocking summer. Apologists will point to 3 50's v Pakistan. Anyone can score a 60 here and there - we need big 100s and we aren't getting them. He is a poor number 3 - him and Usman in the top 3 don't put any of the bowlers under pressure. Both are striking mid to low 40's. We need more than that. We could get away with it when Warner was there - we can't anymore. 2 for 100 after 40 overs is a middling score these days - bowling teams know that one or two poles and all of a sudden you are into the bowlers with no damage on the board. Indeed, that is exactly what happened time after time since the winter.

Head

Shocking summer. The hundred at a flat Adelaide Oval shouldn't fool anyone. Having one of your top 5 bats get a King Pair (coming in at 5 i may add) sums up the summer. Teams don't fear him. Simple.

Green

A nothing summer. Should have been chomping at the bit. People have been saying he is the best young bat since Ponting. I remember a young Ponting taking down Ambrose and Walsh at the Gabba in 95/96 - the punter was 21 or 22 at the time. I remember the Punter flaying England to all parts in 1997 to help get our Ashes campaign back on track. There is no way Green could play any innings like that at this stage.


Test cricket is being changed by bazball - batsmen need to be taking the game on and pushing forward. If we don't change we are going to get left behind.

Id be opening with

Head
Green
Marsh
Smith
Usman
Marnus
Carey


The top 3 have to be attacking - the days of your attacking batsmen coming in lower down the order are over.

No thanks,going overboard with that team re shuffle.If only Glenn Maxwell was 10 years younger I would have him batting at No.6 now.Green/Marsh in the same team,would only pick 1 of them.Select a opener,drop Smith to 3 and drop Labiuschange for now.No need to over react,we only lost by 8 runs,interesting selections ahead for NZ.Need a new young batsman in the side.

 

[SoYouThink90]

Our depth has been tested before, plenty of times. I remember when Clarke was our best bat and there was no-one else, when our test bowlers were Doug the Rug, Siddle and Hilfenhaus. I wasn't alive when Chappell and co. retired, but that left a hole; I've seen docos on how the '87 tour of England was 'the worst side to tour England'.

It'll come good. Might take a few years, but that comes courtesy of being pretty strong over the last 4 years.

Clarke wasnt our best bat during that period at all. It was the selectors that stuffed up that period for Australia.
Arrogantly dumping Symonds out of the team when he had more to give. Refusing to play telented performers like Hodge and Hauritz (playing duds like Marcus North instead) and leaving Ponting to bat at 3.

This period is different. Less Australians play cricket than in the past and there are less cricket clubs at a local level. It can all change very quickly. The Windies went from bieng unbeatable in the 90s to a basket case by the end of the decade. Dont be surprised to see it with Australia. The talent coming through after Starc, Hazelwood retire is thin

 

[Gethelred]

Clarke wasnt our best bat during that period at all. It was the selectors that stuffed up that period for Australia.
Arrogantly dumping Symonds out of the team when he had more to give. Refusing to play telented performers like Hodge and Hauritz (playing duds like Marcus North instead) and leaving Ponting to bat at 3.

This period is different. Less Australians play cricket than in the past and there are less cricket clubs at a local level. It can all change very quickly. The Windies went from bieng unbeatable in the 90s to a basket case by the end of the decade. Dont be surprised to see it with Australia. The talent coming through after Starc, Hazelwood retire is thin

... there are fairly well established reasons why the West Indies have lost players and quality that do not apply in an Australian context.

You're catastrophizing. Take a breath.

 

[Santana]

Our bowlers have lost a yard of pace. Still more than capable of taking 20 wickets when conditions suit....but how many times have we had teams on the rack after a new ball burst only for them to rally and get a solid score.

Huge difference between 143 km and 133 km. Tail enders aren't keen to get behind the line at 143; totally different scenario at 133 km.

Opposition teams scoring from number 5 to 11 has hurt us massively over the last 12 months.

You keep talking about the bowlers when they are the teams least concern.

The touring teams averaged 210, passing 300 twice with 313 being the highest total. Bowling is clearly a worry

 

[SoYouThink90]

... there are fairly well established reasons why the West Indies have lost players and quality that do not apply in an Australian context.

You're catastrophizing. Take a breath.

Cricket has declined in popularity as a played sport for juniors. This is fact and can happen anywhere

 

[allrighty]

Not suggesting we do blood younger players just for the sake of it. We're heavily reliant on those currently in the side.

The biggest problem is as current side is ageing and showing signs of decline. The are very few below it, putting their hands up as replacements as retirements happen over the next 12, 24, 36 months.

We may still be able to beat NZ and India, but I wouldn't have much confidence in it given the vulnerability we've shown to the moving ball. It's not Ashwin and Jadeja I'm worried about, more the quicks I mentioned previously.

So Renshaw debuted and made a ton at 20'ish. What happened with him? If he was that good then why was he not nutured through?

Pukovski is a talent and was tried but should retire now?

Why was Maxwell not nurtured? He has the talent. Was he not popular?

A lot of it has got to do with that great ABBA song Money, Money, Money. Why bust your arse on the really technical and mental stuff when you can earn a shitload in a few weeks.

T20 is cricket's Onlyfans equivalent.

 

[anchor man]

So Renshaw debuted and made a ton at 20'ish. What happened with him? If he was that good then why was he not nutured through?

Pukovski is a talent and was tried but should retire now?

Why was Maxwell not nurtured? He has the talent. Was he not popular?

A lot of it has got to do with that great ABBA song Money, Money, Money. Why bust your arse on the really technical and mental stuff when you can earn a shitload in a few weeks.

T20 is cricket's Onlyfans equivalent.

Agree Pukovski.. sadly though.A talent that had real trouble with the short ball.
Maxy.. maybe you only have to read his recent head lines to understand. That, is only my assumption. But if you read between the lines......
Yes , agree re ABBA. That is what it is all about. That is now what the Windies have to look at with their new found fame.
For me, yes we have a great bowling lineup, but we let the opposition batsmen get away far too often after we have them choked and struggling to breathe.
We do not have variety.A four man attack that is first class, but teams are working them out.We saw the Indians bat for long periods in the heat, and make the Aussie three some toil for over a 100 over many times. Same happened this last test against the Windies. I think that both Green and Marsh were under bowled.Are the top three padding their figures by wanting to bowl long spells?Even the Pakistanis did it.
Five test in the heat and bowling for long periods and not having options is not a good look.

 

[bluespooner]

Silly thread, we just lost to a team that was better over the course of the match, and came up against one of the best test spells ever seen.

We have players out of form, perhaps some complacency too. The NZ series will be interesting, if we get rolled 2-0 then questions need to be asked.

We had a flat summer really, team is still very very good and has achieved a lot.

Fair play to the Windies, they were simply better.

More like a complacent post. The result should really be a wake-up call for the Australian selectors but it likely won't.

I agree with the thoughts of 'greyhound punter' regarding changing the batting order and getting attacking batsmen in earlier. Some of the dismissals were from out and out good balls but Carey's dismissal was a straight ball; almost as if he didn't want to be there. Josh Inglis is a superior keeper and clearly better batsmen and should be in the Test side.

The other issue I see is Starc and Lyon who struggle to dismiss tailenders. Starc doesn't seem to be able to bowl line and length and never has been consistent. The team needs to move on from Lyon whose over-spin doesn't even bother tailenders and should be looking at getting a wrist spinner into the team.

 

[SoYouThink90]

On Picovski just needs to learn how to play a proper hook shot to protect his head

 

[Westend]

On Picovski just needs to learn how to play a proper hook shot to protect his head

If young will played against Joseph last test...he probably would of been knocked out

He needs at least 1-2 solid seasons in the shield before being considered for anything ...its too much of a risk him playing any form of international cricket with his health atm

 

[greyhound punter]

More like a complacent post. The result should really be a wake-up call for the Australian selectors but it likely won't.

I agree with the thoughts of 'greyhound punter' regarding changing the batting order and getting attacking batsmen in earlier. Some of the dismissals were from out and out good balls but Carey's dismissal was a straight ball; almost as if he didn't want to be there. Josh Inglis is a superior keeper and clearly better batsmen and should be in the Test side.

The other issue I see is Starc and Lyon who struggle to dismiss tailenders. Starc doesn't seem to be able to bowl line and length and never has been consistent. The team needs to move on from Lyon whose over-spin doesn't even bother tailenders and should be looking at getting a wrist spinner into the team.

Thank you.

Staggered we didnt change the bowling line up during the summer. This attack will get spanked around by India next summer and probably England the summer after. We need more pace and oomph.

Not saying we are written off by any means. A tweak here and a tweak there and we should still be a force, especially at home.

But we need more attacking players at the start of the innings....England are leading the way. We need to be proactive.

 

[mouncey2franklin]

They tried a state based comp and it drew 3 people and a stay dog.

there is no interest in one dayers either domestic or international either

What are you talking about?

Several games saw crowds of 20k to 30k.

2010–11 KFC Twenty20 Big Bash - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[revo333]

Gee it was only one test.

If they loss the series then there might have been reason for concerned.