Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 2

[Gethelred]

Pittonet out is huge.

TDK got some buzz last week but by in large he's been beaten most weeks. Pittonet will be a huge in when back.

TDK is, at present, an almost player; he's got an extremely high ceiling but struggles with the moment to moment duties of rucking; "Okay, I've tapped the ball, what do I do next, where do I stand, do I drag my player forward or sit behind in the whole, what do I do?"

He's still very young (and very light) for a ruckman, even if his leap is sensational. That tap to Cripps on the weekend in the final term (IIRC) where he completely outleaped Marshall to tap behind him to Cripps (who then proceeded to stuff it up) was him getting sick of losing the centre square clearance and doing something about it; he's got genuine desire to win, and I'd hardly want to snuff that out. But I'd be on the edge of dropping him for Pitto when he's right to come back in, provided he's fully fit.

With all three of Jack, Pitto and TDK we're too slow, and opposition will rebound from half back or break clear faaaaast if we try and run with all three. We've been better defensively without Pitto because our numbers have gotten back faster, and I don't really think that's contestable.

 

[DangerousD]

I will agree with this only once we have beaten Melbourne or Brisbane, no sooner. If we can beat Brisbane in Brisbane during H&A, we can beat them in Melbourne in finals, and Melbourne with May is the benchmark.

Whilst I would like to see us beat one of these teams to make us a genuine threat, losing to them in the H&A season doesn’t mean much come finals time.

I just had a quick look, Richmond lost to both Geelong and Adelaide in their home and away games in 2017, flogged them both in finals, both finished higher than the Tigers that year.

I also remember going to see us vs the Dees in 2000, we won by 98 points at the G, we lost to the same team in the Qualifying final.

It is unlikely but history is filled with stories of teams peaking in the finals and beating more fancied opponents.

 

[F_therest]

Honestly, if we get Pittonet back and McGovern (longshot) back and we can finish a maximum of 6th spot, to ensure a home final, you just never know. As disturbing and frustrating as it was to lose to St Kilda last week, it wasn't for being outplayed, it was of our own doing. Would rather lose games through our own fault than be beaten by being outplayed. Players wouldn't walk away second guessing themselves, they'd be angry with themselves.

Having an off night yet having 30 scoring shots actually bodes well.

Weitering back and he's the big one. Kemp was exposed vs Saints. Weitering not only blankets a key forward but his intercept marks lead to rebound scores.

Like May and Moore, he's the type of defender who can force the opposition to move the ball differently to avoid him, which is huge.

 

[Bletch]

Whilst I would like to see us beat one of these teams to make us a genuine threat, losing to them in the H&A season doesn’t mean much come finals time.

I just had a quick look, Richmond lost to both Geelong and Adelaide in their home and away games in 2017, flogged them both in finals, both finished higher than the Tigers that year.

I also remember going to see us vs the Dees in 2000, we won by 98 points at the G, we lost to the same team in the Qualifying final.

It is unlikely but history is filled with stories of teams peaking in the finals and beating more fancied opponents.

Different story if Kouta hadn't got injured. Weird season - only 4 matches that were decided by less than 4 goals - 7 by more than 10 goals. We won big, lost big.

 

[Sector 7G]

Different story if Kouta hadn't got injured. Weird season - only 4 matches that were decided by less than 4 goals - 7 by more than 10 goals. We won big, lost big.

After Kouta got injured we had no hope of beating * so everyone looked like they lost interest that season

 

[Gethelred]

Whilst I would like to see us beat one of these teams to make us a genuine threat, losing to them in the H&A season doesn’t mean much come finals time.

I just had a quick look, Richmond lost to both Geelong and Adelaide in their home and away games in 2017, flogged them both in finals, both finished higher than the Tigers that year.

I also remember going to see us vs the Dees in 2000, we won by 98 points at the G, we lost to the same team in the Qualifying final.

It is unlikely but history is filled with stories of teams peaking in the finals and beating more fancied opponents.

2017 Richmond are a poor example if you're looking to precedent, as the precedent both before them and since has been that in order to win a GF you need to have won a final in a previous finals series first. They are the exception, not the rule.

They gained legs in 2017, abilities they didn't know they had. They were never better than they were in that year, even in 2019. That side is the only team I can think of that would've challenged the 2007 Cats on GF day, and I maintain that no-one could've beaten Geelong that day.

 

[Stamos]

2017 Richmond are a poor example if you're looking to precedent, as the precedent both before them and since has been that in order to win a GF you need to have won a final in a previous finals series first. They are the exception, not the rule.

Uh, Dees finished 9th in 2020.
So if we discount the 3 time premiership winners Richmond, who won their first flag without playing finals the previous year, West Coast are the only Premiers to have won a final the previous year since Hawthorn.

 

[Gethelred]

Uh, Dees finished 9th in 2020.
So if we discount the 3 time premiership winners Richmond, who won their first flag without playing finals the previous year, West Coast are the only Premiers to have won a final the previous year since Hawthorn.

Not previous year, a previous finals series. Dees won finals in 2018.

It's been an indicator of success the entire AFL era, having players who've won finals before, and it's been seen as an impediment for teams without them since.

 

[Stamos]

Not previous year, a previous finals series. Dees won finals in 2018.

It's been an indicator of success the entire AFL era, having players who've won finals before, and it's been seen as an impediment for teams without them since.

Dogs?

 

[Stamos]

Also, I'm not sure how much you can count winning finals 3 years previously and then missing finals for 2 years as being solid finals experience. How many new players were in the 2021 side?

 

[Gethelred]

Dogs?

Matthew Boyd played finals in 2006 when they won an elimination final, and they had Gia acting as a playing assistant into assistant coach that year off-field as well. Bob Murphy had been round since 2000, Dale Morris from 2005, and while he wasn't getting games Will Minson was there in both eras. They had Matt Suckling on the list from Hawthorn in '08.

They had a fair amount of finals experience on that list.

 

[Gethelred]

Also, I'm not sure how much you can count winning finals 3 years previously and then missing finals for 2 years as being solid finals experience. How many new players were in the 2021 side?

I didn't come up with this as a criteria of success, but it's held water pretty consistently over that time.

 

[Gethelred]

Also, I'm not sure how much you can count winning finals 3 years previously and then missing finals for 2 years as being solid finals experience. How many new players were in the 2021 side?

I'm not sure you can discount something that's been done. Finals footy is seen as a great arbiter between players and greats, those who rise to the occasion and those who fall back to the pack. Players go into these games under enormous pressure, and it's on the players who've been there and done it to both settle them down and make sure they're up to the challenge.

It's a factor mind, not the sole factor.

 

[Gethelred]

There's also a silver lining here, for anyone who wants one: it means that if we fail on this particular push, all these players developed within our system will still be there for the next push, and the one after that. If you've a player on your hands, you've a player who can have a career that lasts 10, 15 years; those players can see themselves playing in different roles, playing under different coaches and methods, but a failed campaign is something to build upon.

Fremantle's current mob is built from their push under Lyon, 8 years ago. Sydney's rebuild still has the vestiges of their 2012 premiership, and Collingwood still have their best players as Pendles and Sidebottom.

You can go, miss, and go again in a few years if you've not drafted yourself into a hole.

 

[Stamos]

Matthew Boyd played finals in 2006 when they won an elimination final, and they had Gia acting as a playing assistant into assistant coach that year off-field as well. Bob Murphy had been round since 2000, Dale Morris from 2005, and while he wasn't getting games Will Minson was there in both eras. They had Matt Suckling on the list from Hawthorn in '08.

They had a fair amount of finals experience on that list.

Fine, we've got Zac Williams, Lewis Young, George Hewett, along with Coaches Micheal Voss, Ash Hansen and Luke Power.

 

[Stickitupthem]

Just a thought
Have we surpassed what any of us expected this year .
My answer is a big YES therefore let’s not bag any of our players for the rest of the year
Anyone on board

 

[Blue__Balls]

Just a thought
Have we surpassed what any of us expected this year .
My answer is a big YES therefore let’s not bag any of our players for the rest of the year
Anyone on board

Nah.

Bigger picture, we've either over-performed or been shown how much we were underperforming last year.

In isolation, week to week, we'll continue to review and critique performance though. That's what most of us are here for, to discuss our games, players, strategies etc.

 

[blues4flag]

Nah.

Bigger picture, we've either over-performed or been shown how much we were underperforming last year.

In isolation, week to week, we'll continue to review and critique performance though. That's what most of us are here for, to discuss our games, players, strategies etc.

Yep. A cliche but I'm less interested in the wins and losses and more interested in how we're progressing within games.

At the same time, also less interested in individuals and more interested in the system. It's amazing how little the periphery players matter when you have a core group of A graders and a competitive system that players can buy into.

 

[thylacine60]

ya get a chance have a look at rowell & anderson being interviewed (on) on the couch - just the sheer joy of a couple of young men reveling in their win.....

 

[Stickitupthem]

Nah.

Bigger picture, we've either over-performed or been shown how much we were underperforming last year.

In isolation, week to week, we'll continue to review and critique performance though. That's what most of us are here for, to discuss our games, players, strategies etc.

I hear you and understand
Each to their own
I’ve been wrapped and yet frustrated all year but am super positive to where we are heading and where we are
Time to give these guys a break they have all played a crucial part this year and yes some will be moved on but they still have contributed to where we are which is in the Window to possibly win It this year
Go blue boys

 

[JustaBattler]

Just a thought
Have we surpassed what any of us expected this year .
My answer is a big YES therefore let’s not bag any of our players for the rest of the year
Anyone on board

The Club has outperformed my pre - pre-season expectations and is performing a tad below my after - pre-season expectations only because of the horrendous run of injuries to key players...

I think the change of coaching group and I do believe it is the whole group under Voss can take as much credit as teh players

and I think that the things that the new coaching group has bought to the table is a structured game plan
AND
selection INTEGRITY

Voss has played blokes according to the role they are asked to perform and has selected according to attributes and form.

So we have seen the rise of players like : Durdin, Boyd, Cottrell ( even LoB) , Young, Owies, as regular starting players
on top of which - SOJ | TDK | Fisher - have really lifted their actual game day impact

It has helped to have Cerra and Hewett added to the mix - but they arent winning the games for Carlton - they are doing their jobs well

but I reckon this season pretty much proves the importance of good coaching.

As for "bagging players" - disagree analysing who is doing what and who might do it better is why people post in forums like this is it not?

Dont forget - the Club still has to find room for class players to come back in with Marchbank/McGovern/Williams and vital role players like Pittonet

It is a totally different Club we get to support now- being run by blokes who have a plan not just a wish.

 

[thylacine60]

The Club has outperformed my pre - pre-season expectations and is performing a tad below my after - pre-season expectations only because of the horrendous run of injuries to key players...

I think the change of coaching group and I do believe it is the whole group under Voss can take as much credit as teh players

and I think that the things that the new coaching group has bought to the table is a structured game plan
AND
selection INTEGRITY

Voss has played blokes according to the role they are asked to perform and has selected according to attributes and form.

So we have seen the rise of players like : Durdin, Boyd, Cottrell ( even LoB) , Young, Owies, as regular starting players
on top of which - SOJ | TDK | Fisher - have really lifted their actual game day impact

It has helped to have Cerra and Hewett added to the mix - but they arent winning the games for Carlton - they are doing their jobs well

but I reckon this season pretty much proves the importance of good coaching.

As for "bagging players" - disagree analysing who is doing what and who might do it better is why people post in forums like this is it not?

Dont forget - the Club still has to find room for class players to come back in with Marchbank/McGovern/Williams and vital role players like Pittonet

It is a totally different Club we get to support now- being run by blokes who have a plan not just a wish.

it's about how you do it..........

 

[The Return of the Paf]

Yep. A cliche but I'm less interested in the wins and losses and more interested in how we're progressing within games.

At the same time, also less interested in individuals and more interested in the system. It's amazing how little the periphery players matter when you have a core group of A graders and a competitive system that players can buy into.

I'm glad you're not our list manager.

 

[WalshYouLegend]

Yep. A cliche but I'm less interested in the wins and losses and more interested in how we're progressing within games.

At the same time, also less interested in individuals and more interested in the system. It's amazing how little the periphery players matter when you have a core group of A graders and a competitive system that players can buy into.

I'm more interested in how we're progressing in between games.

For example:

• on a Monday, which player is the first to make Voss his morning coffee.
• on a Tuesday, which player is racing Cotters to make it first to the Lygon Street Pizza joint.
• on a Wednesday, who is reading through all the critiques on BigFooty to look for the next improvement vector
• on a Thursday, who is winning the Poker match - Cripps, Walsh or Charlie.
• on a Friday, who on the injury list is all caught up on Home and Away and Days of our Lives
• on a Saturday, who's taking over the Carlton socials to entertain us pre-match, during and upon victory.
• On Sunday, which player organises the bucket of gatorade to dump over Voss with the song

These are the metrics that really will bring us the 17th!

Nuff said.

 

[Thrawn]

• on a Thursday, who is winning the Poker match - Cripps, Walsh or Charlie.

Definitely not Charlie if this is his Poker face: